Is South Florida part of the Caribbean and/or Latin America?

[Crawford]

Originally Posted by goat314

ThTrailer parks, drawly accents, confederate flags, and wife-beater tanktops as everyday apparell are all still common sights in Florida even in South Florida. For those who said Miami does not have a Southern legacy, a quick google search could thoroughly dispell that myth.

While I'm not sure I would use such characteristics as evidence of "Southerness" (sounds like rural Michigan as much as rural Alabama), where in Miami would you find this? Miami-Dade County is like 85% nonwhite, and the whites skew Jewish and upper class, and are concentrated in wealthy waterfront areas.

You're telling me there are concentrations of white dudes in trailer parks with "drawly accents and confederate flags" anywhere within 30 miles of downtown Miami? I doubt it, at least in 2018. Outside the wealthy coastal areas, and a few black enclaves, the county seems like 99% Hispanic, most of the time.

[JMKeynes]

Parts of South Florida, like Boca, are like Israel.

[hauntedheadnc]

Originally Posted by cannedairspray

I mean, you responded to it, yes. Did you "address it" in a way where people are "oh yeah, that's right"? I don't think so. Alaska and Hawaii are generally considered to be their own thing.

Yes they are, and so would, in all likelihood, Puerto Rico, the USVI, Guam, and any other territory or possession that wanted to become a state. Like Alaska and Hawaii, they are separated by geography and history. Florida is not.

That's kinda the thing: no one is saying there is a single Southern culture. There being more than a monolithic Southern culture and Miami not being Southern are two mutually exclusive things.

Then what is someone saying when they say that a place like Miami cannot be "culturally" Southern? What culture are they referring to exactly? Why does Miami not qualify when disparate cultures like those found in New Orleans and the Qualla Boundary do?

Now the question is if Atlanta has more in common with New York than it does Savannah. I have noting against Southerners, am not afraid of them, don't think they're stupid, or anything like that. But when I think of southern culture, no part of me thinks of Miami and it simply being south of the Mason Dixon line doesn't change that any more than it does for Havana.

And that is your opinion just as mine is my own. Neither is or will ever be objectively right. However, in researching the history of Miami, I do see historical precedent for calling South Florida Southern.

Well, it's also southern if you look at the map, is it not?

So is Patagonia.

Why? Culture can't extend across political boundaries?

Do you consider Montreal and Halifax to be part of New England?

It's "because" it's not culturally southern, really. Nor is Phoenix. Nor is Brownsville, although it's just about as south as Miami, in a state that was part of the Confederacy.

Which Southern culture would that be that it is not a part of though? You've stated there is no one Southern culture that Miami is not a part of, so which one of the many Southern cultures is Miami not a part of? Why does that particular culture define Miami's non-participating status in the South when none other would? And why, if Southern culture is composed of many cultures in turn, is there no room for the culture of Miami?

Funny you should mention Brownsville though. Also, here's the location of their Jefferson Davis Memorial if you'd like to see it.

[Crawford]

"The South" has variety, of course, but there are some commonalities. Scotch-Irish concentrations, large black population, more religious and conservative, heavy Methodist and Baptist (esp. Methodist for upper class), small Catholic population, etc.

If you mapped any of these characteristics, a distinct region would stand out, and it certainly wouldn't include Miami. It would include almost everywhere from Virginia to North Florida, and west to Texas.

[hauntedheadnc]

Originally Posted by McBane

But the South DOES have a distinct culture and it seems like Haunted has some sort of inferiority complex. As I've said before and others have acknowledged (but Haunted continues to ignore), within that culture, there is certainly room for differences - no one expects such a large region to be uniform. But there are too many similarities to ignore.

One such similarity: southern states have voted for conservative political parties as a bloc for pretty much our entire country's existence. Why do they all vote the same if there's not a unifying culture? What is it then?

It's not any sort of inferiority complex. It's amusement. I've seen people do this very same thing for years. Heaven forfend someone think they live in the South! How awful! It's just amusing to see the mental magic tricks and rationalizations that people use to try to get out of calling themselves what they are.

[Docere]

Originally Posted by Crawford

DC looks more like Atlanta, with the winding roads, green hills and new sprawl, but feels more like NYC, especially in the District itself and environs.

Montgomery County feels more or less like Westchester, Bergen or Fairfield Counties. NW DC feels like Riverdale.

NW DC and Montgomery feel the most "Northeastern" culturally, yes (and fittingly have most of the Jewish population in the region). I've spent a lot of time in both and I don't see that much of a Montgomery/Westchester similarity beyond being filled with "liberal elites."

And what about NOVA and PG County? One feels almost Sun Belt-ish, the other is a Black suburban county that could easily be Atlanta.

[Docere]

A lot of NW DC kinda reminds me of North Toronto too. Of course they're not the same country, let alone region!

[Docere]

I think the upper middle class liberal transplant types are honestly pretty similar everywhere in the USA in a lot of ways. You'll find more regional distinctness in the working class and ethnic communities that have been around a place longer.

Of course the latter groups are harder to find in DC...or to a lesser extent Miami.

[cannedairspray]

Originally Posted by hauntedheadnc

Yes they are, and so would, in all likelihood, Puerto Rico, the USVI, Guam, and any other territory or possession that wanted to become a state. Like Alaska and Hawaii, they are separated by geography and history. Florida is not.

So we've established that geography is not the determinant. We're making progress!

Then what is someone saying when they say that a place like Miami cannot be "culturally" Southern? What culture are they referring to exactly? Why does Miami not qualify when disparate cultures like those found in New Orleans and the Qualla Boundary do?

They're referring to the culture not being Southern, basically. Since geography is not the determinant, we need to do better than "connected to Central Florida, which is connected to northern Florida, which is southern culturally".

Do you consider Montreal and Halifax to be part of New England?

Not at all, but it's not because of political boundaries, is it?

Which Southern culture would that be that it is not a part of though? You've stated there is no one Southern culture that Miami is not a part of, so which one of the many Southern cultures is Miami not a part of?

Literally any of them. It's not like the the Redneck Riveria, it's not like the Low Country, it's not like the Piedmont, it's not like Appalachia. Do they even eat grits in Miami? Collard greens?

And why, if Southern culture is composed of many cultures in turn, is there no room for the culture of Miami?

We've already figured that it's not a matter of having "room". That's a non sequitur.

Funny you should mention Brownsville though. Also, here's the location of their Jefferson Davis Memorial if you'd like to see it.

And? There's Confederate statues in Baltimore, is it Southern? Do you consider Brownsville to be Southern?

[cannedairspray]

Originally Posted by hauntedheadnc

It's not any sort of inferiority complex. It's amusement. I've seen people do this very same thing for years. Heaven forfend someone think they live in the South! How awful! It's just amusing to see the mental magic tricks and rationalizations that people use to try to get out of calling themselves what they are.

This is all in your head. You're imagining that that's why people are saying Miami doesn't fit. But what if that's not why? What are you left with?

[McBane]

I don't think anyone here is arguing that the South is a cultural monolith. Of course, there will be differences between the cities and the rural areas, between the coastal areas and the more western regions, etc. Everyone recognizes that. But there's still a common southern culture that's been forged over a long period of time. Surely that aggregate culture is one reason why Southern states have consistently and overwhelmingly voted for the same brand of conservative politics (see Solid South and Southern Strategy).

[Jonesy55]

I guess if you can count the Bahamas as Caribbean (though they are not in the Caribbean Sea) then you could also count Miami and the Florida Keys as Caribbean, that doesn't mean they can't also be from the US South too.

From my perspective as a non-American I'd say South Florida is not generally thought of as being in the 'core' US South, it's considered somewhere distinct from that. But there are always overlaps and transitional regions in any classification, South Florida is probably a transitional region between the 'core' US South and the 'core' Latin Caribbean, not quite fully either of them.

[goat314]

Originally Posted by Crawford

While I'm not sure I would use such characteristics as evidence of "Southerness" (sounds like rural Michigan as much as rural Alabama), where in Miami would you find this? Miami-Dade County is like 85% nonwhite, and the whites skew Jewish and upper class, and are concentrated in wealthy waterfront areas.

You're telling me there are concentrations of white dudes in trailer parks with "drawly accents and confederate flags" anywhere within 30 miles of downtown Miami? I doubt it, at least in 2018. Outside the wealthy coastal areas, and a few black enclaves, the county seems like 99% Hispanic, most of the time.

There are mobile home parks all over Dade County, pretty much woven into the semi-urban landscape of strip malls, car dealerships, and industrial zones. I think the problem is that most people that go to Miami to visit have only been in the upscale areas like Downtown, Miami Beach, Coral Gables etc. Go to North Miami, Carol City, Homestead, large swaths of Broward and Palm Beach Counties and you will get a real feel of the area. Also what does Hispanic have to do with anything? Just like there are Hispanic "New Yorkers" there are Hispanic "Floridians", who consider themselves Southerners. Also, while the black population is heavily influenced by Haitians and other Caribbean groups there is still a VERY VERY large population of American blacks in Miami and they are about as Southern and "country" as it gets. Haitians and Jamaicans (the largest Black Caribbean groups) only represent 4.5% and 1.4% of the the Black population of Dade County. Dade County is still like 17.1% Black of any ethnic group, which means they don't even represent half of the collective Black population. Many American blacks have been fleeing to Broward and Palm Beach county areas of the MSA, because of the rising cost of living and increasingly bilingual job requirements. While Miami is a heavy immigrant city that doesn't take away from the fact that it is a Southern city. Just like Houston and Dallas are Southern cities with large Hispanic populations.

[goat314]

Originally Posted by McBane

I don't think anyone here is arguing that the South is a cultural monolith. Of course, there will be differences between the cities and the rural areas, between the coastal areas and the more western regions, etc. Everyone recognizes that. But there's still a common southern culture that's been forged over a long period of time. Surely that aggregate culture is one reason why Southern states have consistently and overwhelmingly voted for the same brand of conservative politics (see Solid South and Southern Strategy).

Also explains why Florida has consistently voted for conservative politicians, many of them being Cuban-American from Miami. Ahem....Marco Rubio. A lot of bible thumping going on in South Florida as well. Catholic Latinos can be just as right wing as Evangelical Whites.

[Capsicum]

Originally Posted by Crawford

"The South" has variety, of course, but there are some commonalities. Scotch-Irish concentrations, large black population, more religious and conservative, heavy Methodist and Baptist (esp. Methodist for upper class), small Catholic population, etc.

If you mapped any of these characteristics, a distinct region would stand out, and it certainly wouldn't include Miami. It would include almost everywhere from Virginia to North Florida, and west to Texas.

What about Louisiana?

[Capsicum]

Originally Posted by Docere

A lot of NW DC kinda reminds me of North Toronto too. Of course they're not the same country, let alone region!

What are the similarities -- architectural or cultural/demographic?

[Docere]

Originally Posted by Capsicum

What are the similarities -- architectural or cultural/demographic?

Streetcar suburb-ish upscale white professional neighborhoods off of major streets near the subway line, a bit of a "suburb in the city" feel. The kind of people who might use the subway fairly regularly but still have an Audi in the driveway. A similar degree of urbanism at a similar distance from downtown.

TO has more big apartment clusters though.

Wisconsin/Connecticut Avenue corridor = Yonge St. corridor

[atlantaguy]

Originally Posted by McBane

But it's essentially been that way since Henry Flagler. South FL never attracted colonists from England or a massive settler movement on the scale of Kentucky or Tennessee. The economy was never dependent on slavery and therefore, it lacks a historical African-American population.

No one here is saying that the South is just a bunch of trailer park rednecks who revere the Confederacy, go to Church every Sunday, and vote Republican. Anyone who believes that is completely ignorant. But there are historical, religious, ethnic, and cultural ties that make up the unique culture of South. It's just that those ties don't extend to South FL.

And yea, there are certainly other, smaller outliers like Asheville but in no way does that compare to a place as large as South FL, which has a metro population of almost 7 million people.

Then please explain the Jim Crow years when Miami was totally segregated, and if you were black you'd better be off of all of the beaches by sundown?

Where were all of the Northern transplants then, and why were they so complicit?

This convenient erasure of Miami and South Florida's history is hilarious, and so convenient for so many.

[atlantaguy]

Originally Posted by Crawford

While I'm not sure I would use such characteristics as evidence of "Southerness" (sounds like rural Michigan as much as rural Alabama), where in Miami would you find this? Miami-Dade County is like 85% nonwhite, and the whites skew Jewish and upper class, and are concentrated in wealthy waterfront areas.

You're telling me there are concentrations of white dudes in trailer parks with "drawly accents and confederate flags" anywhere within 30 miles of downtown Miami? I doubt it, at least in 2018. Outside the wealthy coastal areas, and a few black enclaves, the county seems like 99% Hispanic, most of the time.

Is there anyplace on this planet that you don't know absolutely everything about? Anyplace?

[jd3189]

A lot of great responses everyone. My opinion on the matter has remained the same. South Florida is still Southern but it has also had strong ties to Latin America and the Caribbean that persist today because it's closer to those areas than any other US city.

Miami is closer to Havana than it is to Tallahassee, let alone DC. I live several nautical miles away from the Bahamas. From any of the international airports in the area, you are only hours away from Cancun, Kingston, San Juan, Port-au-Prince Caracas, Mexico City, Bogota, Panama, etc. And people living in those areas are only a few hours away as well and there is constant exchange.


You could say the same with Atlanta, Houston, New Orleans, etc, but Miami just has a closer connection for some reason.


I can only speak for Atlanta since I've there before. Certain parts in the core and nodes were somewhat as cosmopolitan, like Downtown, the Koreatown strip, and other places here and there. But the city, aside from the airport (which is always a great experience), is very insular. That is to say, Atlanta is very standard American, which many of the big Southern cities seem to be since many of them are inland and close to other cities and regions that are American as well. Atlanta's getting more diverse, but it's not a cultural shock. The Southern feel is still dominant.


Down in South Florida, it's not the case anymore. Like someone mentioned, you will see hillbillies and Confederate flags inland near the Everglades and north of it. But the closer you get to the coast, the more things become less Southern. You will still see signs of the old ways like in Overtown or the old courthouse in West Palm Beach. But the area feels more cosmopolitan, at least when it comes to the countries south of the US.


I don't know how to explain it very well. Maybe it's that way because it's coastal and a lot of coastal US cities are places where the nation meets the outside world. Miami is unique in the South in that it's one of the few cities in the region to achieve this and it has achieved it greatly. I think only New Orleans in its heyday was like this and probably still is now. Maybe those cities are somewhat different from the rest of the "South" as we know it because they are areas of mixed cultures.