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  #41  
Old Posted Jan 30, 2016, 9:25 PM
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Keep in mind Victoria is twice as big as Kingston.
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  #42  
Old Posted Jan 30, 2016, 10:17 PM
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Originally Posted by rousseau View Post
Victoria has a really solid and attractive commercial downtown area. Kingston's is only about half the size, and I don't see how they really compare. I personally prefer the eccentric Victorian shopfronts of Kingston that are typical of southern Ontario over the American-style monolithic commercial blocks of Victoria, and Kingston's residential adjacent to downtown is a lot nicer than Victoria's, but on the whole I think Victoria is more impressive.
Victoria is, architecturally, more like a Western city than an Eastern city, particularly the older ones. There aren't many large buildings older than about 1890. The layout is interesting in that there's a lot of irregularity but the streets are quite wide. A lot of downtown Victoria streets are two lanes each way plus surface parking. Then again, I do think Kingston has kind of a similar feel in that the height of a lot of the old commercial buildings is similar.

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Actually, this topic points to a fundamental difference between the cities and towns of Ontario and Quebec and just about anywhere else in the country. Here and in Quebec we tend to have long commercial streets instead of two-dimensional commercial districts with depth. Chances are that when you turn off Yonge, Queen, St. Laurent or St. Denis (outside of downtown) you're suddenly transported into residential streets.
I think it just varies around Canada. Western cities tend to be like this too outside of downtown area. Broadway in Vancouver and Whyte Avenue in Edmonton are fairly major commercial strips with, for the most part, little commercial activity on the sidestreets. Quebec City has a bunch of central parts that are not like this. Most of Atlantic Canada is not like this, but newer parts (circa 1910's) of some towns like Halifax and Moncton are. Quinpool Road in Halifax's West End is pretty Toronto-like.
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  #43  
Old Posted Jan 30, 2016, 10:27 PM
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Originally Posted by jeremy_haak View Post

Keep in mind Victoria is twice as big as Kingston.
I had that very much in mind (and the fact this difference comes across when you walk or drive around each town) when I disagreed that Kingston was a close comparison to Victoria. There are definitely some points of similarity, but when you experience all the parts and the whole picture of each downtown, Kingston does not escape the "town" feel (as lovely, vibrant and substantial as it is), while Victoria clearly crosses over into bustling "city" territory (a small bustling city, to be sure, but a bustling city nonetheless).
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  #44  
Old Posted Jan 31, 2016, 5:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rousseau View Post
Victoria has a really solid and attractive commercial downtown area. Kingston's is only about half the size
Kingston also has about half the population. So, on a "pound for pound" basis...
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  #45  
Old Posted Jan 31, 2016, 5:37 AM
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Originally Posted by Prometheus View Post
I had that very much in mind (and the fact this difference comes across when you walk or drive around each town) when I disagreed that Kingston was a close comparison to Victoria. There are definitely some points of similarity, but when you experience all the parts and the whole picture of each downtown, Kingston does not escape the "town" feel (as lovely, vibrant and substantial as it is), while Victoria clearly crosses over into bustling "city" territory (a small bustling city, to be sure, but a bustling city nonetheless).
I'd have to disagree here. Kingston very much feels like a city. In many ways, I'd say Kingston actually feels more "city" like than Ottawa despite Ottawa being far larger. Ottawa often feels like a massively oversized small town. Kingston by contrast feels like an undersized city.

Something about Kingston that sets it apart--which from my experience I found Victoria has as well--is the overwhelming feeling that the city should be bigger than it is and that something in history cheated the city out of its "true size".

In a different sort of way, Montreal has a bit of this too.
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  #46  
Old Posted Jan 31, 2016, 5:40 AM
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When I was young coming from Calgary I was shocked first at Toronto, and then Montreal in terms of being able to enter the subway in a fairly urban area, ride for what seemed like a relatively long time and then get off in a more or less equally urban area. In this case both cities fit into the endless streets categories. Toronto definitely has a downright huge downtown though so it's hard to say how it fits in. Both are probably a mix in the end though.

For smaller cities around the same size - Calgary is a big city downtown whereas Ottawa is more of an endless streets. At least if you count Byword market area as streets and not downtown. But still you have areas like Hintonburg whereas the Calgary equivalent would be 1960s suburbia.
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  #47  
Old Posted Jan 31, 2016, 6:55 AM
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Originally Posted by someone123 View Post
Have you ever been to Kingston though? I won't get into that debate, but as far as vibrancy goes cities in Canada, big and small, are all over the map. The year-round warm temperature stuff is also easy to over-emphasize. People get used to the climate they live in. A lot of the colder cities have public winter activities like skating, and a lot of cities outside of BC aren't so cold that typical winter days are miserable for pedestrians.

If a city is actively in the middle of a huge cold snap or snow storm that's one thing, but outside of those times I haven't found that places like Toronto and Halifax have a bigger summer/winter variation in outdoor activity levels compared to Vancouver and Victoria. I haven't been to Montreal or Ottawa in the winter, but I get the impression that both are "winter cities" where people actually get out and do stuff when it's -5 and below. And Vancouver and Victoria are not particularly busy cities in the scheme of things. If anything I'd describe them as kind of quiet and relaxed, though not necessarily in a bad way.
I think you mistook the meaning of my post. I was simply pointing out that Victoria isn't a typical tourist city where the summer it is packed with people and in the winter it becomes a ghost town (such as Osoyoos and to a lesser degree Kelowna), which I feel is what some people in eastern Canada may mistakenly picture it as.
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  #48  
Old Posted Jan 31, 2016, 10:18 AM
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This thread is just crying out for some cool Kingston and Victoria pictures.

I'm not familiar with kingston, but my interest has definitely been piqued by all the praise the downtown has gotten.
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  #49  
Old Posted Jan 31, 2016, 12:46 PM
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Originally Posted by giallo View Post
This thread is just crying out for some cool Kingston and Victoria pictures.

I'm not familiar with kingston, but my interest has definitely been piqued by all the praise the downtown has gotten.
Alright, you asked for it

Some personal photos of mine from Victoria a few years ago in early spring.

Downtown Victoria by Ian, on Flickr

Downtown Victoria by Ian, on Flickr

Victoria Harbour by Ian, on Flickr

The Empress by Ian, on Flickr

Downtown Victoria by Ian, on Flickr

Beacon Hill Park by Ian, on Flickr

Downtown Victoria by Ian, on Flickr

Victoria Harbour by Ian, on Flickr

Downtown Victoria by Ian, on Flickr

Downtown Victoria by Ian, on Flickr



I think what give Victoria the edge for me is its variety. Having the busy harbour directly downtown, the Canadian western navy fleet directly beside downtown, and being the government capital of Canada's third largest province (and UVIC of course) among other things.
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  #50  
Old Posted Jan 31, 2016, 1:16 PM
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Kingston has a lot going on too, like a 200 y/o fort for instance, lol. Not posting this for aesthetic beauty but a bit of an overview of Kingston.

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  #51  
Old Posted Jan 31, 2016, 2:29 PM
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Originally Posted by speedog View Post
Calgary's downtown, yupp, impressive but at times I wish we had a bit more of the Edmonton vibe going - Edmonton in some ways feels a bit like Montreal to me. There just seems to be a bit more vibrancy to Edmonton when you venture just outside of their core. Yeah, Calgary has it's interesting areas like Kensington, Inglewood, Bridgeland, 4th Street SW, 17th Avenue SW and even 11th Street SW but they all just seem to be lacking a bit of something.
It's funny because this is really the near-consensus opinion (that Edmonton has cooler neighbourhoods, basically) but I've always felt the opposite. Edmonton's got Whyte Ave/Strathcona and then, what else? Whereas Calgary has all those areas you mention. Still a pretty small collection of urban areas, but still. There seem to be more pedestrian-scaled areas around Calgary's core then around Edmonton's.

There is a case to be made that while Edmonton really only has one such area, Strathcona, it's the best neighbourhood in either city.
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  #52  
Old Posted Jan 31, 2016, 3:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Drybrain View Post
It's funny because this is really the near-consensus opinion (that Edmonton has cooler neighbourhoods, basically) but I've always felt the opposite. Edmonton's got Whyte Ave/Strathcona and then, what else? Whereas Calgary has all those areas you mention. Still a pretty small collection of urban areas, but still. There seem to be more pedestrian-scaled areas around Calgary's core then around Edmonton's.

There is a case to be made that while Edmonton really only has one such area, Strathcona, it's the best neighbourhood in either city.
I think part of it for me is that Edmonton just feels like it has a bit more grit, Calgary has done a good job over the years of cleaning areas up. Yeah, I know there's many who won't like that grit statement but so much of what Calgary has to offer just seems a bit too squeaky clean, sanitized like that smell in a dentist's office. Edmonton, it just feels like it's roots are still there whereas in Calgary, one has to search quite a bit more to find the same. It's difficult to explain, maybe this way, in Calgary I find everything is either quite new/sterile or has been redone to be so and a lot of what should be interesting quirky places have stop have stopped being such because the hipster crowd comes along and creates that artificial scene that they are so attracted to.
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  #53  
Old Posted Jan 31, 2016, 4:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Drybrain View Post
It's funny because this is really the near-consensus opinion (that Edmonton has cooler neighbourhoods, basically) but I've always felt the opposite. Edmonton's got Whyte Ave/Strathcona and then, what else? Whereas Calgary has all those areas you mention. Still a pretty small collection of urban areas, but still. There seem to be more pedestrian-scaled areas around Calgary's core then around Edmonton's.

There is a case to be made that while Edmonton really only has one such area, Strathcona, it's the best neighbourhood in either city.
I'm not sure about cooler, but my discussion point was just about where (reasonably) walkable commerce is. As far as I can tell apart from Centre Street (and a few older town centres, maybe parts of the Transcanada) most of Calgary's commercial streets don't extend far from the core. Edmonton has a reasonable number scattered about (118 Ave, Stoney Plain Rd sort of, 82 Ave, and maybe 124 Ave) that seem as substantial as Centre Street. Is one set up better than the other? That's a personal taste. Also both can be done well or poorly. I'm just trying to talk about differences, not start a competition.
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  #54  
Old Posted Jan 31, 2016, 7:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Metro-One View Post
I think you mistook the meaning of my post. I was simply pointing out that Victoria isn't a typical tourist city where the summer it is packed with people and in the winter it becomes a ghost town (such as Osoyoos and to a lesser degree Kelowna), which I feel is what some people in eastern Canada may mistakenly picture it as.
I would say that Victoria has, rightly or wrongly, more of a retirement/government town image in the rest of Canada. Not a lot of people talk about it as a resort-like place you'd visit only during a certain season.

One part of Kingston that stands out is City Hall and the market square. The City Hall itself is from the 1840's and the square has been nicely renovated. Many of the nearby commercial buildings are also older than you'd find in a lot of similar cities. I'll let locals dig up the best pictures, but if I were going to argue about how great Kingston is that would be an area that I would pick.

I do think that Kingston's downtown is lower density and peters off a lot faster than Victoria's, but nobody seems to be disputing the fact that Victoria is the larger of the two cities.

Last edited by someone123; Jan 31, 2016 at 7:39 PM.
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  #55  
Old Posted Jan 31, 2016, 7:35 PM
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Anyways here's some pics of Kingston. Pretty nice for how unknown it is outside of being just some place in Ontario

Lakeview by tr!cker,
on Flickr


Springer Market Square and City Hall, Kingston. by Scuba Dan, on Flickr

Stores on Princess Street, Kingston, Ontario by Blake Gumprecht, on Flickr

Untitled by Lucie Zhang | ig: @lucieczhang, on Flickr

Sipps, downtown Kingston Ontario by Steve Brule, on Flickr
Kingston City Hall by Greg Stevenson, on Flickr
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  #56  
Old Posted Jan 31, 2016, 7:41 PM
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I've heard nothing but good things about Kingston (haven't been myself), and people who have been to both tell me there are a lot of similarities, maybe even more so than the other common comparison Victoria gets with Halifax.

Victoria's downtown is experiencing some major new growth, with many major projects underway and planned. It's being fueled in part by the lowest rental vacancy rates in the country at 0.6% . As well, for decades Victoria has been in the top three of Canada in terms of real estate prices, which means a starter home for most is a condo.

I travel across Canada a fair bit for work, and unlike some other cities, Victoria's downtown is truly a seven day per week downtown, for it's size, it never slows down, regardless of the season, day of the week or time of the day (except after 2:00 a.m. it wont' have the life of large Canadian city). With the high costs and mild climate, there are challenges however, with a fairly significant homeless problem.

I have posted a couple of these before, but Victoria's downtown does not photograph well from some angles, these ones show the density best to me.

First two from C McCann on Flickr





By Jenn Chan:



And finally a great shot by Firat Ataman:



Lastly, here's a beauty of Kingston by Jason Cowell, definitely some similarities

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  #57  
Old Posted Jan 31, 2016, 8:03 PM
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It's crazy how similar they really are. Victoria is just far larger.
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  #58  
Old Posted Jan 31, 2016, 8:43 PM
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Time to rename thread?
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  #59  
Old Posted Jan 31, 2016, 9:31 PM
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Fredericton is a bit of a weird mix. The actual downtown made to seem smaller because the city is oriented north-south but dt stretches out east-west. Outside of there, however, the it's clearly Endless Streets, staying very walkable until it reaches Dundonald St. and stops abruptly.

Saint John is Big City Downtown. The South End Peninsula is Endless, but barriers both natural (harbor, Courtenay Bay, huge cliffs) and man-made (Highway, railway) the streets continue to be walkable for quite a ways after that but there's quite an interruption.

Moncton is both depending on what direction you leave in. To the north it's very walkable, but it's suburban going east-west and a river followed by suburbs to the south.
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  #60  
Old Posted Jan 31, 2016, 10:01 PM
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Victoria's midrise skyline is impressive and beautiful. I didn't see a single surface parking lot.
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