What are the best Transit Oriented Developments in the world?

[pdxstreetcar]

What are the best Transit Oriented Developments in the world?

We hear this term thrown around endlessly and transit oriented development can certainly mean a lot but what would you say are among the best examples of it worldwide? Europe and Asia may not use the term very often but likely have great examples. What single projects, multi-block developments, or mostly new/heavily redeveloped neighborhoods would you say are the best examples?

[Shawn]

This is a cop-out answer, but basically anything built above a Tokyo or Osaka train/subway station in the past, oh, two decades or so.

Specifically, look at the Umeda Station renovations / expansions which just finished up (biggest station in Osaka, 4th busiest in the world). Also look at what's currently being done to Shibuya Station in prep for the Olympics. These both should be considered platinum standards for TOD.

[Gantz]

Originally Posted by Shawn

This is a cop-out answer, but basically anything built above a Tokyo or Osaka train/subway station in the past, oh, two decades or so.

Specifically, look at the Umeda Station renovations / expansions which just finished up (biggest station in Osaka, 4th busiest in the world). Also look at what's currently being done to Shibuya Station in prep for the Olympics. These both should be considered platinum standards for TOD.

I agree with this. Japan does TOD really REALLY well. First time I went to Japan, this is one of the things that stood out to me from urban planning/transportation perspective.

South Korea (Seoul) tries to do similar stuff in places as well.

[ChargerCarl]

Well Japan doesn't really do TOD's like we do them, with spot zoning changes and waivers for parking mandates etc. They just allow whats demanded to be built. Any development can be a TOD if the market is there for it.

[10023]

Yeah, does anything in Tokyo really count as a TOD? Similarly is the new WTC in NY a TOD?

I think it would be more interesting to talk about high density developments around transit in low density, car-oriented environments.

[Cirrus]

On this topic I can't imagine comparing anything in the US favorably to Japan. That said, my money for best example in the US is the Rosslyn-Ballston corridor outside Washington. The things that makes it different & better than most US competitors are its high-rise scale and its critical mass. Places like Orenco Station (Portland) or Mockingbird Station (Dallas) are much smaller and much more insular.

[mhays]

That's a problem in my area...just about nothing will get a Seattle neighborhood zoned highrise. So aside from the actual core, it's generally six-floor woodframes and sometimes not even that.

[Crawford]

I think, in the U.S., DC is the best example. DC might not have the most urban or transit-oriented suburbs, but, through federal initiatives, were able to craft pretty solid TODs from basically sprawl.

The feds have directed agencies to locate along the Metro system, and it has paid major dividends, to the point where DC now has the second highest transit share in the U.S.

But it isn't really an example for other U.S. metros, because they aren't the seat of govt. and don't have hundreds of thousands of federal employees.

[Cirrus]

Originally Posted by Crawford

But it isn't really an example for other U.S. metros, because they aren't the seat of govt. and don't have hundreds of thousands of federal employees.

I don't see how that's particularly relevant. Office workers are office workers, whether they're federal or private. And residential is a big part of the mix too.

A bigger difference may be that DC's height limit pushes more of the market for urban-style growth out to non-downtown locations. Denver and Dallas can still put a lot of growth in their downtowns, so there's less need for non-downtown TOD.

Anyway, we should also mention Toronto as probably the other best North American example. I can't comment on how it compares to DC, but it seems to get a lot right.

[ue]

Vancouver and Toronto in Canada. Miami and DC in the US.

[Double L]

Originally Posted by Cirrus

I don't see how that's particularly relevant. Office workers are office workers, whether they're federal or private. And residential is a big part of the mix too.

A bigger difference may be that DC's height limit pushes more of the market for urban-style growth out to non-downtown locations. Denver and Dallas can still put a lot of growth in their downtowns, so there's less need for non-downtown TOD.

Anyway, we should also mention Toronto as probably the other best North American example. I can't comment on how it compares to DC, but it seems to get a lot right.

Great conversation going on here. I would say that what Crawford is saying is that government jobs don't really have to be earned. Most US cities have to spend decades pulling in jobs. D.C never had to worry about that. They always had plenty of government jobs.

[mrnyc]

Originally Posted by Cirrus

On this topic I can't imagine comparing anything in the US favorably to Japan. That said, my money for best example in the US is the Rosslyn-Ballston corridor outside Washington. The things that makes it different & better than most US competitors are its high-rise scale and its critical mass. Places like Orenco Station (Portland) or Mockingbird Station (Dallas) are much smaller and much more insular.

mockingbird is pretty interesting. its looks and feels like a test tube scientific experiment in tod for dallas. they buried the metro just to see what a subway would look like.

[Cirrus]

Originally Posted by Double L

I would say that what Crawford is saying is that government jobs don't really have to be earned. Most US cities have to spend decades pulling in jobs. D.C never had to worry about that. They always had plenty of government jobs.

OK, but government jobs are a small percentage of jobs in the DC office market, and a negligible percentage of jobs in TOD areas (since the last round of BRAC moved them all out to high security military bases). It isn't government workers occupying those towers in Rosslyn, Ballston, or Silver Spring.

Now, if you include non-government jobs that are there because of proximity to the government, then you've got a case. Contractors like Lockheed Martin, CACI, Deloitte, they're absolutely huge tenants here.

The government is an anchor, and a stabilizer. But it's not the entire market.

[colganc]

Most of the private high rise developments in Hong Kong, especially Hong Kong island, Kowloon, and the areas near Sha Tin (if memory serves me). Noy many mixed use buildings, but for sure mixed use areas, with major buildings on top of and right next to MTR. From my time in HK and Tokyo, HK has Tokyo beat.

[pdxstreetcar]

Thanks!

I'd love to hear some specific examples of projects, particularly outside the US. I'm fairly familiar with those in the US but know almost nothing about projects that could be considered TOD in Europe or Asia... any projects in particular in Tokyo, Toronto, Hong Kong, Paris, London, Berlin, etc?

There seems to be several typologies of TOD too: the new neighborhood (like former railyard), the existing neighborhood with extensive new infill, the mixed use megaproject (typ of Asian examples: towers above a mall above a station), the multi-block development, the infill smaller building, etc. There is certainly also a lot of subjectivity and gray area to describing and classifying TOD.

I guess what I'm kind of getting at is there is a lot of talk of TOD but many that we do hear about leave a lot to be desired.

[Jonesy55]

What's the definition of a 'TOD'?

[Crawford]

In most of the world, basically everything is TOD. The term is very U.S.-specific. IMO it's silly to call places like Hong Kong or Manhattan TOD.

This is a term intended for repurposed sprawl in Northern VA and the like.

[10023]

Originally Posted by Crawford

In most of the world, basically everything is TOD. The term is very U.S.-specific. IMO it's silly to call places like Hong Kong or Manhattan TOD.

This is a term intended for repurposed sprawl in Northern VA and the like.

This is largely true, and basically what I meant above.

[colganc]

Originally Posted by 10023

This is largely true, and basically what I meant above.

Sha Tin and the other new cities like Tseung Kwan O or Tseun Wan in Hong Kong definitely qualify as TOD. Predevelopment of these "new cities" at each location there was basically nothing. Highly planned too with a good degree of government involvement in planning and in some cases lots of subsidized housing. Hong Kong island and Kowloon are mostly not this way, but even in those cases there are spots of redevelopment that can qualify. For example on Hong Kong island check out Wong Chuk Hang, an old factory/industrial area that is getting an MTR station and extension with new residential development.

Here is an example of what I mean for Sha Tin: https://www.researchgate.net/profile...000s-below.png

[10023]

Ok, I was thinking of the core central areas, but yes there are probably developments that could be called TODs within the Hong Kong territory.