How urban do you see Seattle?

[mhays]

Seattle's Chinese connections are small compared to those cities, but growing at a huge rate. We've recently gone from zero direct flights to four per day. The UW has grown its foreign student population by multiples and a lot of that is Chinese. Suddenly a lot of real estate buyers are coming, along with a sizeable wave of developers. Microsoft, Amazon, and techs in general are heavily dependent on talent from China as well as India etc.

[seaskyfan]

Originally Posted by Shawn

I am currently exploring Seattle as a first-choice repatriation destination. My industry has a strong presence there; lots of Japanese cultural assets for the wife and kids; waaaay more affordable than the Bay Area.

My questions to those living there:

1. How bad does the lack of sun get? Serious question: my wife gets seasonal depression symptoms when we don't get sun in Tokyo for two straight months. I presume Seattle is worse.

2. How handicapping do you see Seattle's lack of a real, substantive transit network? At some point, if a city truly wants to be classically urban, you need multiple heavy rail lines. We are listing off the Big 6 and saying Seattle is just a bit below these, but I don't see it joining the big boys until it gets a subway like the Big 6 all have.

3. Are there any inner ring streetcar suburbs ala Brookline/Newton, MA or Philly's Mainline communities? I won't sugar coat it - my wife and I are hugely attracted to owning a house with a small yard (this is every Japanese person's dream, something essentially no one can ever realize if they stay in Japan), but we don't want to live in a sprawly subdivision. Bellevue seems nice and shiny but in a New Urbanism, Charlotte NC sort of way. Not our cup of tea.

You folks might want to visit around the Winter Solstice to see how your wife does. That's where the combo of short days and gray skies can be tough on a lot of folks with seasonal symptoms. As others have said it rarely rains heavily - it's more like a light drizzle or just cloudy. Most locals don't carry umbrellas unless heavier rain is predicted. I have some slight seasonal symptoms but a week in Mexico or Hawaii in February gets me through.

I bus in to work Downtown currently (from the Wallingford neighborhood) and when the U District station opens in 2021 I'll be walking over there most likely. I think you'll find you're able to get around pretty well while you're waiting for the trains to start running. In general north-south is fine (I-5, 99, a number of arterials) but east-west is a pain in the ass. It will be great once the rail lines arrive but my personal experience is that I can get to the places I need/want to go pretty easily. If you're commuting between the neighborhoods and Downtown you'll be fine - I'd suggest looking at the connections between where you play on working and living before writing the area off due to the infrastructure.

I'm from the Boston area and there are a lot of neighborhoods in the City that remind me of the streetcar suburbs around Boston. I'd suggest checking out the near North Seattle neighborhoods (Ballard, Fremont, Wallingford just north of the Ship Canal and Phinney Ridge, Green Lake , and Ravenna a bit further north). All of those areas would offer you a house with a yard and walking distance to most of your needs. If you'd like fancier the top of Queen Anne is worth checking out.

[Gordo]

Originally Posted by seaskyfan

There's a cluster of higher end boutique stuff along 5th roughly between the Nordstom flagship and the Olympic Hotel. That's where you'll find stores like Gucci and Louis Vuitton along with some local stores. There's also some stuff in Pacific Place (Tiffany's, Barneys). The largest more upscale shopping center in the City is in University Village - close to UW - but that's more places like the Apple Store and Crate and Barrel than high fashion. Bellevue does have more of the fancier stores like Nieman Marcus. Generally Seattle is a pretty casual city so you don't see a ton of people wearing super fancy brands.

The area with the Neiman Marcus store in Bellevue is pretty hilarious actually. The bottom three floors are very upscale shopping, but the two office towers are currently occupied by Microsoft - and not just any Microsoft group, but several more-stereotypical-than-most engineering groups. Towards the end of the work day is great people watching time, as hundreds of dudes in shorts, ill-fitting t-shirts, and flip flops meander past the high end boutiques. I'm sure that there must be some time when the "fancy" Bellevue folks come to shop or the stores wouldn't be there, but they've always seemed completely empty when I'm around the area.

[Crawford]

Originally Posted by destroycreate

Yeah that makes sense. Flashy wealth doesn't really seem part of the culture.

Not that it's a part of Vancouver or San Francisco's either, I think the majority of people who shop at these stores are rich foreign (Chinese) tourists.

I've noticed that too for SF, at least. I could see Seattle as the same.

It's weird, because SF (and Seattle) are, on paper, very rich cities/metros, but don't "feel" rich in some very base visual aspects (like how people dress) while poorer cities/metros (LA, Miami, Dallas) "feel" much richer in terms of outward appearances.

[seaskyfan]

Originally Posted by Gordo

The area with the Neiman Marcus store in Bellevue is pretty hilarious actually. The bottom three floors are very upscale shopping, but the two office towers are currently occupied by Microsoft - and not just any Microsoft group, but several more-stereotypical-than-most engineering groups. Towards the end of the work day is great people watching time, as hundreds of dudes in shorts, ill-fitting t-shirts, and flip flops meander past the high end boutiques. I'm sure that there must be some time when the "fancy" Bellevue folks come to shop or the stores wouldn't be there, but they've always seemed completely empty when I'm around the area.

I am mystified as to how those stores stay open. The only place I've ever seen people buying stuff is at the cupcake store.

[seaskyfan]

Originally Posted by Crawford

I've noticed that too for SF, at least. I could see Seattle as the same.

It's weird, because SF (and Seattle) are, on paper, very rich cities/metros, but don't "feel" rich in some very base visual aspects (like how people dress) while poorer cities/metros (LA, Miami, Dallas) "feel" much richer in terms of outward appearances.

You have to know what to look for. People in Seattle spend money on stuff like bikes and eco-friendly countertops.

[brickell]

Originally Posted by Cirrus

What about Miami?

I've never been there and don't have a good sense of it.

I think the thing with Miami (South Florida as a region), is that the urbanism is disjunct. Miami Beach is separated from the downtown core by busses. Coral Gables nor Coconut Grove nor Midtown have a direct rail connection. Getting from Dowtown Palm Beach or Fort Lauderdale to Downtown Miami is not for those on a schedule.

If you were to magically combine all these things into a the kind of core that Seattle or Minneapolis has, it would blow them out of the water. But alas... Things are changing for the better, but until they can get the transportation figured out (funded), South Florida will always be a collection of urban spaces and not an actual urban city.

My sense of Seattle (mostly from here) is that the core is where everything is and that it quickly turns into inner ring suburb type stuff outside it. Just a quick look on Google Maps and I see a lot of dense-ish single family neighborhoods outside of the core, but not a lot of areas that look mixed with apartments, condos, townhomes with sfh etc. Hate to say it, but where is Seattle's Brooklyn?

[dc_denizen]

Not sure I like this...Seattle does have some interesting sprawl problems as well, especially for a western metro.

Issaquah Highlands

Issaquah is one of Seattle’s fastest growing suburbs and the Issaquah Highlands neighborhood is a big part of that. With constant plans to expand (and plenty of room to do it), the Highlands region is the very definition of up-and-coming. It is a carefully crafted community with a Green frame of mind and a very family-friendly atmosphere.
Because it’s so new, the Issaquah Highlands has had the opportunity to be an example community for the Urban Village design concept. This means a system of roads, trails and sidewalks meant to accommodate pedestrians and bicycles, as well as an overall efficient use of space. Homes, schools and businesses surround park spaces and are connected through an extensive system of clean, scenic paths. This is just one of many design elements in the neighborhood meant to promote a lifestyle that is both healthy and environmentally responsible.
The Issaquah Highlands community has been careful not to make itself into just a commuter retreat. While there are many attractions in nearby Downtown Issaquah, the Highlands has been steadily adding more of its own shops, restaurants and other entertainment features. The High Street Mall is a retail district that has been welcoming new businesses into its steady development for the past few years and a new central pond has attracted a wide variety of restaurants and services such as Sip Wine Bar & Restaurant and the Sorella spa and salon.

Issaquah has some of the best schools in Washington, so Highlands residents are sure to have a very positive education experience. Grand Ridge Elementary has been open since 2006 and has already cultivated a stunning reputation. Similar sterling reports come from Issaquah Middle School, while Issaquah High School has recently been called one of the best 9-12 programs in the nation. Kids can also get a strong start at the Lakeside Montessori Program.
The Issaquah Highlands is an ambitious neighborhood that encourages involvement from the entire community while fostering a safe, clean environment for one and all. Just as downtown Seattle is at the forefront of New Urban design, the Highlands seek to reinvent the suburbs for the 21st century.

This stuff is sprawly even by Houston standards

Also not great

lot of hippie suburbs out there...subaru in the driveway, we recycle-but-drive-50-miles-a-day type places.

[destroycreate]

Originally Posted by brickell

Hate to say it, but where is Seattle's Brooklyn?

I think that would go to Capitol Hill:


http://www.djc.com/stories/images/20...Aerial_big.jpg

Left of I-5


http://www.landcast.com/file?name=/p...4/DSC_0080.JPG

[mhays]

We do have a lot of sprawl. The biggest reasons:

1. Until 20 years ago there was no real growth management, and projects permitted under the old rules persisted for a while after that.

2. Hills and wetlands. We're interlaced with greenbelts of various types.

3. Horse farms. The links show a ton of space in between the suburban/rural standards. We even have a lot of "five acre plus" zoning outside the line that's intended to reduce suburbia but also means the five-acre places keep going outward.

[pdxtex]

seattle is extremely urban in every sense of the word. sure its got some streetcars suburbs but don't let the doug firs and leafy trees fool you, its also a very dense city. all of those census tracts east of downtown as you go up towards capital hill are very dense, 25k ppsm, 45k ppsm, 52k ppsm...some of those are very very dense. its global and national influence is undisputed too in terms of gdp, its cranking out nearly 290 billion dollars and its per capita income is the third highest in the nation....its transit numbers are high too, 8th highest ridership in the nation. in many ways its a top 10 metro for sure. its lower prices will also make it a competitive business environment, something the bay area tech cities are going to have a harder time competing with in the future. if LA didn't have so many people, I could see seattle becoming the alpha west coast economy in 20 years....

[hipster duck]

Geography and topography (and therefore land costs and the difficulty of pre-automobile transport) has sort of forced Seattle to have intense urbanism in small pockets, just as it did in San Francisco - and to an older but lesser extent - Cincinnati. Once you go north of Fremont it gets pretty suburban pretty quickly.

Seattle is also probably the last of the "urban" cities to be built in the US. What I mean by that is that every city whose first boom came after Seattle's built in an overwhelmingly suburban fashion.

One thing that's very interesting to notice is the amount of "urban" pre-war automobile edifices in downtown Seattle. There are some really nice art deco parking garages scattered around, some in their original use, and others integrated into new projects.

[chris08876]

As mentioned, its very urban, and... it has world class, jaw dropping natural beauty to it. A city that's urban, and has beautiful mountains and evergreen forests surrounding it is a class A city in every respect. Next to Miami and NYC, in my top 3 for U.S. cities.

Its making strides in improving its transportation network, which should help it accommodate the 1000's that move in every year. 700k is on its way population wise. The metro itself is also booming. Tacoma, Bellevue, all seeing nice gains.

[fflint]

Originally Posted by Crawford

Boston is the only one of those cities where the strong majority of regional upscale retail is in the city center. In Seattle, Philly, DC (and obviously LA), there's at least one suburban shopping node that's generally more desirable.

I wasn't limiting my comparison only to "upscale retail," but on that specific topic, it's not obviously true the majority of upscale retail metropolitan Boston's is in the "city center" (by which I take you mean Downtown plus the Back Bay district).

Now, if you define "upscale retail" as only small, exclusive one-off boutiques, then Newbury Street probably takes the cake. But that narrow slice is not representative of what most people consider upscale retail, nor is it the bulk of upscale retail sales.

Let's look at the numbers: ten of thirteen standalone Coach stores in metropolitan Boston are in the suburbs; all four full-fledged Nordstrom department stores are in the suburbs; all three Bloomingdales stores in metro Boston are in the suburbs; two of four Burberry stores are in the suburbs; one of two Neiman Marcus stores is in the suburbs; one of two Gucci stores is in the suburbs; one of two Louis Vuitton standalone stores is in the suburbs; one of two Tiffany stores is in the suburbs; the only regional Saks Fifth Avenue and Barneys New York department stores are downtown. Metro Boston's upscale suburban retail is primarily clustered in two nodes, Natick and Burlington.

The data does not obviously support the conclusion the majority of metropolitan Boston's upscale retail is in the center city.

Anyway...back to Seattle. I still think Seattle has a better downtown shopping district than Boston and a few other top tier cities.

[pdxtex]

per the OP's concern about high fashion, north face is about as couture as the northwest gets. people go to the symphony in goretex around here. of course, seattle is Nordstrom country so if you seek a high end shopping experience, that's about as good as it gets for the proletariat. i think seattle might have a barneys too however.

[destroycreate]

Originally Posted by pdxtex

per the OP's concern about high fashion, north face is about as couture as the northwest gets. people go to the symphony in goretex around here. of course, seattle is Nordstrom country so if you seek a high end shopping experience, that's about as good as it gets for the proletariat. i think seattle might have a barneys too however.

Lol! I was admittedly bummed out when I discovered there is no Bloomingdale's (I do indeed love clothes) anywhere in the PNW.

I definitely noticed that the people I saw on the streets were noticeably untrendy looking compared to SF/LA.

[pdxtex]

after one northwest winter, you will own more goretex, black clothes and merino wool than you can shake a stick at.

[pdxtex]

heres a handy fashion guide to the northwest. Portlandia, "get the gear!"...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R3SFqV0hMyo

[bobbyv]

Originally Posted by pdxtex

seattle is extremely urban in every sense of the word. sure its got some streetcars suburbs but don't let the doug firs and leafy trees fool you, its also a very dense city. all of those census tracts east of downtown as you go up towards capital hill are very dense, 25k ppsm, 45k ppsm, 52k ppsm...some of those are very very dense. its global and national influence is undisputed too in terms of gdp, its cranking out nearly 290 billion dollars and its per capita income is the third highest in the nation....its transit numbers are high too, 8th highest ridership in the nation. in many ways its a top 10 metro for sure. its lower prices will also make it a competitive business environment, something the bay area tech cities are going to have a harder time competing with in the future. if LA didn't have so many people, I could see seattle becoming the alpha west coast economy in 20 years....

Ma'am you are delusional on both counts, I live in Seattle, both it and Portland are nice quaint towns compared to LA or SF, not to mention the huge gap in gdp.

[pdxtex]

right, my point was los angeles by default will always be the west coast alpha economy. its got 20 million people more or less. per capita though, seattle residents are noticeably better off then angelenos, 75k versus LA's 60k. 25 percent is a lot. density wise, seattle is pretty close to LA too, los angeles is about 8300 ppsm and seattle is 8000. the difference is negligible id say. san fransisco is in a league of its own in many contests buts gdp wise, seattles in the same bracket....