Suburban Skylines

[isaidso]

Originally Posted by Nite

If the GTA had to hold off development until transit was there, nothing would get built.

Is that true though? Every high density area besides Humber Bay grew up around already established transit. There's the Yonge Street spine. All the density along it owes its existence to the subway line underneath. Scarborough Town Centre is situated at Kennedy Station. Vaughan Corporate Centre is being built at the northern terminus of the extended Yonge subway line.

Humber Bay is the exceptions to the rule. More density is being approved because transit expansion to it is imminent. Mississauga City Centre is really a mall next to giant parking lot. Intensification to turn it into a mini-downtown is happening because transit expansion to it is imminent just like at Humber Bay. Development in Toronto is very much tied to transit. About a quarter of this below currently exists.


Humber Bay Master Plan

Courtesy of skyrisecities

[memph]

Originally Posted by isaidso

Boca Raton residents may not like it but they're part of Miami MSA. That would make them a suburb of Miami. Likewise, people in Burlington refuse to accept that they're a suburb of Hamilton even they're part of Hamilton CMA.

Okay, but if the Hamilton and Oshawa CMAs got merged into Toronto's (which, by the US MSA standards, they would), would Grimsby be considered a suburb of Hamilton or of Toronto? And would Courtice and Bowmanville be considered suburbs of Oshawa or of Toronto?

In the end, it's not called the Miami metropolitan area. It's called the Miami-Fort Lauderdale-West Palm Beach metropolitan area. And that's just the census bureau name. Most people would just call it South Florida.

[isaidso]

Originally Posted by memph

Okay, but if the Hamilton and Oshawa CMAs got merged into Toronto's (which, by the US MSA standards, they would), would Grimsby be considered a suburb of Hamilton or of Toronto?

Definitely Hamilton because Grimsby has long been a satellite place and/or bedroom community for Hamilton. Grimsby also owes a ton of its growth to its proximity to Hamilton. A change of definition at Statistics Canada doesn't suddenly make a place a suburb of Toronto instead of Hamilton.

[Doady]

MSAs are based on county boundaries so Burlington and Oshawa would be included in the Toronto MSA, but Hamilton would not be. However, the Hamilton MSA would be part of the same CMSA as the Toronto, Guelph, and Barrie MSAs.

[isaidso]

Originally Posted by Doady

MSAs are based on county boundaries so Burlington and Oshawa would be included in the Toronto MSA, but Hamilton would not be. However, the Hamilton MSA would be part of the same CMSA as the Toronto, Guelph, and Barrie MSAs.

Why wouldn't Halton County be included as part of Hamilton MSA?

[memph]

Originally Posted by Doady

MSAs are based on county boundaries so Burlington and Oshawa would be included in the Toronto MSA, but Hamilton would not be. However, the Hamilton MSA would be part of the same CMSA as the Toronto, Guelph, and Barrie MSAs.

Hamilton's commuting interchange was right at the threshold of what would be needed to combine the MSA with Toronto. It didn't meet the threshold in the 2006 Census commuting data, but it did meet it in the 2011 Transportation Tomorrow Survey. But technically Grimsby would be part of the St Catharines-Niagara MSA since US MSAs are delineated at the county level rather than at the municipal level. So maybe I should've said "does Caledonia county as a Hamilton suburb or Toronto suburb?".

The Toronto MSA would be

Core Counties
Toronto
Peel
York
Durham
Halton
Hamilton

Outlying Counties
Dufferin
Kawartha Lakes
Haldimand

CMSA Counties
Simcoe (Barrie-Orillia MSA)
Peterborough (Peterborough MSA)
Brant (Brantford MSA)
Northumberland (Cobourg-Port Hope mSA)
Norfolk? (Simcoe mSA) - not sure if it qualifies anymore, I'd have to check the numbers again
Niagara (St Catharines-Niagara MSA - it may or may not be included since it's right at the threshold)

Other
Wellington County (including Guelph) have a high enough commuting interchange to join the Toronto CMSA, however, the commuting interchange is even higher with Waterloo Region, so it would be part of the Kitchener-Waterloo CSA instead. Waterloo Region's commuting ties with the GTHA are weak enough that it wouldn't join the Toronto CMSA.

[memph]

Originally Posted by isaidso

Why wouldn't Halton County be included as part of Hamilton MSA?

It has much stronger commuter interchange with Toronto/Peel than with Hamilton. Even Burlington has more people commuting into the GTA than to Hamilton. It's only part of the Hamilton CMA because a lot of Hamilton residents commute to Burlington. And Milton, Oakville and Halton Hills are much more tied to Toronto than Burlington is.

[UrbanImpact]

Originally Posted by isaidso

Boca Raton residents may not like it but they're part of Miami MSA. That would make them a suburb of Miami. Likewise, people in Burlington refuse to accept that they're a suburb of Hamilton even they're part of Hamilton CMA.

It's more of a suburb of Fort Lauderdale and Fort Lauderdale is not a suburb. It's part of the tri-city metro West Palm Beach, Fort Lauderdale, Miami.

[Innsertnamehere]

Vaughan Centre is really coming into it's own now as a few more residential towers occupy. Now up to 7 residential towers complete, with an 8th almost done. Three office buildings, a subway station, bus terminal, and YMCA. There are 6 additional residential buildings under construction as well which will bring the total to 14 residential buildings. Plus probably another 20 buildings, including hotels and several office buildings, proposed on top of that.

The public realm is pretty good and it feels much more human scale than Mississauga. I think it'll feel like a genuine urban place pretty quickly, it's already getting close and there was nothing there 5 years ago. From nothing to urban place in 10 years seems like a pretty reasonable time frame to me.



https://urbantoronto.ca/forum/thread....26901/page-14

[MonkeyRonin]

Originally Posted by Innsertnamehere

Vaughan Centre is really coming into it's own now as a few more residential towers occupy. Now up to 7 residential towers complete, with an 8th almost done. Three office buildings, a subway station, bus terminal, and YMCA. There are 6 additional residential buildings under construction as well which will bring the total to 14 residential buildings. Plus probably another 20 buildings, including hotels and several office buildings, proposed on top of that.

The public realm is pretty good and it feels much more human scale than Mississauga. I think it'll feel like a genuine urban place pretty quickly, it's already getting close and there was nothing there 5 years ago. From nothing to urban place in 10 years seems like a pretty reasonable time frame to me.

Vaughan has the advantage of not having to work around the same sort of 1960s-2000s mistakes that Mississauga does, but at least as far as their newer developments go I don't see what makes them any more human scaled. The architectural quality and streetscaping seems a little better.

Mississauga: https://goo.gl/maps/osji4cgnRHtuAaU98
Vaughan: https://goo.gl/maps/LE8TZdQFr5ybdBuA7

For that reason though, I think that once the dust settles Vaughan could end up having the aesthetically superior public realm & built form of the two; however - I also don't think it'll ever be as vibrant or as much of a destination as MCC is. Presently there isn't really any reason to go there unless you live or work in the area, and there doesn't seem to be any flagship retail, public spaces, or cultural/entertainment venues on the horizon either (that I'm aware of at least). I'm sure a more vibrant retail scene will materialize around the transit hub - but how well will that compare to something like Square One and Mississauga's Civic Square?

However it develops though, it's still a long way out from ever feeling like something more than just a collection of towers in a suburban industrial estate.

[Nite]

Originally Posted by MonkeyRonin

Vaughan has the advantage of not having to work around the same sort of 1960s-2000s mistakes that Mississauga does, but at least as far as their newer developments go I don't see what makes them any more human scaled. The architectural quality and streetscaping seems a little better.

Mississauga: https://goo.gl/maps/osji4cgnRHtuAaU98
Vaughan: https://goo.gl/maps/LE8TZdQFr5ybdBuA7

For that reason though, I think that once the dust settles Vaughan could end up having the aesthetically superior public realm & built form of the two; however - I also don't think it'll ever be as vibrant or as much of a destination as MCC is. Presently there isn't really any reason to go there unless you live or work in the area, and there doesn't seem to be any flagship retail, public spaces, or cultural/entertainment venues on the horizon either (that I'm aware of at least). I'm sure a more vibrant retail scene will materialize around the transit hub - but how well will that compare to something like Square One and Mississauga's Civic Square?

However it develops though, it's still a long way out from ever feeling like something more than just a collection of towers in a suburban industrial estate.

Personally I would much rather live near Square One than VMC because of the mall and all the other restaurants and entertainment nearby. I have never understood why being beside a large regional mall was a drawback for MCC.

[MonkeyRonin]

Square One's urban interface sucks, and it's harder to weave a massive suburban shopping centre into the new urban fabric. Wouldn't be the case if it were built in more of an Eaton Centre-type format.

Though apparently doing pretty much just that seems to be the long-term goal.

[MolsonExport]

good luck trying to turn Square One into Shubuya.

[Nite]

Sheppard & Don Mills in North York


https://urbantoronto.ca/news/2021/02...sales-continue

[Nite]

Brentwood, Burnaby




Source: https://www.flickr.com/photos/ffwood...n/photostream/

[davee930]

Originally Posted by Nite

Brentwood, Burnaby




Source: https://www.flickr.com/photos/ffwood...n/photostream/

Cool! My lights are on!

[kingkirbythe....]

I’m digging those light up cranes.

[dc_denizen]

Any pics of Tyson’s ? Let’s discuss the relative merits of Herndon and Reston please

[LA21st]

Herndon? There's a gazillion places like that.

Reston is alittle better, but it's not really a stand out either.

[isaidso]

Originally Posted by MonkeyRonin

Square One's urban interface sucks, and it's harder to weave a massive suburban shopping centre into the new urban fabric. Wouldn't be the case if it were built in more of an Eaton Centre-type format.

Though apparently doing pretty much just that seems to be the long-term goal.

It's difficult but not impossible. It may not be in the plans today but I suspect Square One will eventually be re-built section by section. The parking lots will be the first to go followed by density above some of the stores. Those massively wide boulevards surrounding Square One will need to be re-designed too. They're tantamount to highways. The biggest mistake they're making, thus far, is not chopping those monster sized blocks up. It's never going to feel urban when you have 3-4 lanes of traffic in each direction traveling at 70km/h on a block 200m long.