Florida's newest commuter rail Sunrail gets state Senate approval

[electricron]

Originally Posted by atlantaguy

Some of you may not realize it, but TriRail in SE Florida was intended as a temporary alternative solution during the massive rebuilding of I-95. SunRail is much more than that.

It's amazing how many temporary programs end up becoming permanent, whether they are local, state, or federal programs.
At least Sunrail hasn't sold itself to the taxpayers as a temporary solution.

[Prahaboheme]

Originally Posted by atlantaguy

I don't know how familiar you are with Central Florida, but I-4 is the absolute spine of the region. And it is a disaster, but it is also where most of the development is clustered. The SunRail line roughly parallels I-4, slightly to the east - which is a very good thing, as it goes through the hearts of the various suburbs clustered to the north of the City.

It will also travel south into Kissimmee and Poinciana to areas that take over an hour to travel from when you are heading to downtown Orlando or points north.

You'll notice that I-4 juts out to the west once it gets to southern Orange and Osceola County, making it difficult for those who live in Kissimmee / Poinciana to easily access the interstate.

SunRail will be a great alternative for those who live in these areas and work in Orlando.

[scalziand]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

Given the proposed 30 minute frequency during peak periods, and two hour frequency during off-peak hours, how can substantial ridership for Sunrail be expected?

That's essentially what Boston has, and they get decent ridership(but somehow managed to decline over the past decade!), although Boston has many more lines. Those kinds of frequencies certainly seem OK for starter service.

[Eightball]

Originally Posted by electricron

You're comparing apples to oranges when comparing CapMetroRail to anything else. The only destination station it visits is downtown Austin.

DART's busiest light rail lines run parallel to freeways. Charlotte's and Norfolk's sole light rail lines are also next to freeways. As long as there are sufficient riders and destinations to attract riders, I don't think it matters how much other transportation facilities are nearby. Price and connivence are important too.

Actually, I think Austin's commuter rail is a great comparison. Although, their ridership did improve significantly (2.8k riders a weekday now - still quite low!) once they added more night service, and weekend service. Of course, SunRail won't be starting with many frequencies and its only M-F.

DART is nothing to emulate, either.

BTW the projections for SunRail's first phase is 4.3k riders a day (http://www.progressiverailroading.co...-arrive--27560) Hopefully they can hit that, but it's hardly anything that will shift the paradigm in Central Florida.

Originally Posted by atlantaguy

What in the world made you come to this conclusion?

I mentioned the upcoming reconstruction of I-4 meaning that SunRail is opening just in time to provide an alternative.

I don't know how familiar you are with Central Florida, but I-4 is the absolute spine of the region. And it is a disaster, but it is also where most of the development is clustered. The SunRail line roughly parallels I-4, slightly to the east - which is a very good thing, as it goes through the hearts of the various suburbs clustered to the north of the City.

SunRail will provide a very attractive alternative to the even greater nightmare that I-4 is certain to be over the next few years while it is being totally rebuilt, and will also be a huge catalyst for true TOD.

1) I hope you are right about TOD. I am skeptical, but I would love to be wrong.
2) I grew up in Fort Myers, went to UF for undergrad and have been to Orlando at least 500 times. I'm a big fan of DT Orlando and some of it's neighborhoods, as well as Winter Park and Deland.
3) I see that your point was that during the mess of the massive expansion of I-4 SunRail should hopefully see increased ridership. Surely you agree with me that huge expansions of nearby interstate capacity is a huge incentive not to use transit, though?

Originally Posted by scalziand

That's essentially what Boston has, and they get decent ridership(but somehow managed to decline over the past decade!), although Boston has many more lines. Those kinds of frequencies certainly seem OK for starter service.

Yeah, cause Boston's transit ridership, built environment and SOV modeshare are definitely an apples to apples comparison with Central Florida.

Look, I hope SunRail is a huge success. Realistically, I think it can be modestly successful in the next 20 years or so. Interestingly enough, especially of after the politically motivated Gov. Scott killed HSR between Tampa-Orlando, this rail project has not received much negative scrutiny. That is likely because it is Mica pork, but either way, that should help it at least eek by at low frequencies and ridership.

[Eightball]

I will add, anything that change the pedestrian experience in Florida (number one per capita in the country for pedestrian deaths and injuries) is very necessary.

Walking our roads could kill you
http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/...,1857088.story

Central Florida's roads run red with pedestrian blood.

Nowhere in America are pedestrians at greater risk of being struck and seriously injured or killed. Nowhere are drivers more likely to suffer the life-changing split second of taking someone's life — simply by operating one of the 3,000-pound machines that are so ubiquitous in Central Florida life, and so deadly.

For a decade now, Metro Orlando has earned the terrible distinction as the most dangerous city in America for pedestrians.

Screw what I said above, this needs to be a rousing success. S** is sad

[atlantaguy]

I'm actually in Orlando now for the first time in several years.

The true core area of the metro from south of Downtown around ORMC all the way through Downtown and surrounding neighborhoods, Winter Park and Maitland has never been this vibrant or looked as good in my lifetime. The densification and urbanization truly is impressive to see. They are obviously doing a lot of things right, and the up-zoning that's taken place is beyond astounding considering the NIMBY's outside of the Downtown core neighborhoods.

That being said, traffic appears to be on Atlanta levels - a metro around 3 times larger. I-4 is an absolute disaster. Arterials are wide, fast and packed all over the place.

I really hope SunRail can be a huge catalyst, and it appears on the ground that the areas it will be running through are embracing it already. Outside of the core, I would NOT want to be a pedestrian here.

Edit: I forgot to mention the Downtown BRT line is being expanded and new corridors are being added.

[Prahaboheme]

Here is a map of the BRT expansion:


I have no idea why they used the color scheme of fruit loops.

[Dale]

Originally Posted by atlantaguy

I'm actually in Orlando now for the first time in several years.

The true core area of the metro from south of Downtown around ORMC all the way through Downtown and surrounding neighborhoods, Winter Park and Maitland has never been this vibrant or looked as good in my lifetime. The densification and urbanization truly is impressive to see. They are obviously doing a lot of things right, and the up-zoning that's taken place is beyond astounding considering the NIMBY's outside of the Downtown core neighborhoods.

That being said, traffic appears to be on Atlanta levels - a metro around 3 times larger. I-4 is an absolute disaster. Arterials are wide, fast and packed all over the place.

I really hope SunRail can be a huge catalyst, and it appears on the ground that the areas it will be running through are embracing it already. Outside of the core, I would NOT want to be a pedestrian here.

Edit: I forgot to mention the Downtown BRT line is being expanded and new corridors are being added.

Just recently moved from Orlando - lived there ten years - and though the traffic is heavy, I must say the road conditions are the best I've seen in the US.

[atlantaguy]

Originally Posted by Dale

Just recently moved from Orlando - lived there ten years - and though the traffic is heavy, I must say the road conditions are the best I've seen in the US.

I would have to agree, Dale. Well, except for the older parts of I-4.

A lot of roads have been widened since my last visit. I did notice there are sidewalks everywhere, attractive landscaping has been incorporated, the buses are all over the place in areas you never used to seem them, etc.

As far as my earlier remark about not wanting to be a pedestrian here outside of the core, that really applies to any large U.S. metro including my own.

[Eightball]

Well, as the article I posted stated, its clearly the most dangerous place to be a pedestrian in the country.

That being said, I agree the downtown BRT is great. Glad they are expanding it.

[N830MH]

Originally Posted by Prahaboheme

Here is a map of the BRT expansion:


I have no idea why they used the color scheme of fruit loops.

Are you talking about modern streetcars or something like that?

[Eightball]

Nah it's BRT done pretty well.

[Prahaboheme]

Some station progress updates for SunRail:

Florida Hospital Station:





Lynx Central Station:





Church Street Station:





Orlando Amtrak Station / Orlando Health:







Sand Lake Road Station:













DeBary Station:





Lake Mary Station:





Longwood Station:





Altamonte Springs Station:







Maitland Station:



Winter Park Station:

[Lakelander]

Thanks for the update. What month is service supposed to start?

[Prahaboheme]

Phase I: April 2014

(DeBary, Sanford, Lake Mary, Longwood, Altamonte Springs, Maitland, Winter Park, Florida Hospital, Lynx Central Station, Church Street Station, Orlando Amtrak / Orlando Health, Sand Lake Road)

Phase II: 2016 (prep-work began in Q4 2013)

(the addition of Deland Station to the North, and Meadow Woods, Osceola Parkway, Kissimmee Intermodal Station, and Poinciana to the South)

[N830MH]

Originally Posted by Prahaboheme

Phase I: April 2014

(DeBary, Sanford, Lake Mary, Longwood, Altamonte Springs, Maitland, Winter Park, Florida Hospital, Lynx Central Station, Church Street Station, Orlando Amtrak / Orlando Health, Sand Lake Road)

Phase II: 2016 (prep-work began in Q4 2013)

(the addition of Deland Station to the North, and Meadow Woods, Osceola Parkway, Kissimmee Intermodal Station, and Poinciana to the South)

What about MCO? Hasn't they gotten approved yet? Will they extend service?

[Prahaboheme]

The MCO spur is in planning, and is years off. The encouraging news is that the airport terminal station has been approved, and All Aboard Florida service (Miami-Orlando) will link to MCO. The station will be designed to include SunRail and other future rail links.

[bobdreamz]

^ Thanks for the updated pics Praha. The Sand Lake Road station is only a few miles west of the Orlando Airport I believe and would make a great connection with All Aboard Florida once that is built. The stations do seem rather suburban though and Orlando needs some sort of light rail system to complement Sunrail as well.

[Prahaboheme]

More than half of the stations are park n ride style. The urban locations in Phase I are Amtrak Station, Lynx Central Station, Church Street Station, Winter Park Station, and Florida Hospital Station.

In Phase II, Kissimmee Station will be the only "urban" location and the remainder are park n ride.

Generally speaking though, the location of the commuter line runs through the historic spine of Orlando, which should bode well for access.

[bobdreamz]

The distance from the Sand Lake Road station to the Orlando airport is about 4.9 miles or less depending where the AAF rail station is to be built within the airport complex. AAF should just extend their tracks westward and connect with Sunrail there unless CSX has tracks that run by the airport. Does anybody know if CSX has tracks along this route?
What a missed opportunity to connect both systems!