Moscow: new metro stations - Page 4

Nutterbug · #61 Posted **Feb 5, 2008, 9:38 AM**

Any pictures from the Soviet era for comparison?

coth · #62 Posted **Feb 5, 2008, 11:22 AM**

anm · #63 Posted **Feb 5, 2008, 7:31 PM**

Yes, coth made a good point about diversity of architectural styles. One thing missing (and I hope it will be picked-up soon) is high-tech style. Stations opened recently are mostly in the mold of 1990s, particularly because design of most of them dates back to 1990s. The constructions has been frozen for a few years for lack of funds.

anm · #64 Posted **Mar 1, 2008, 3:24 AM**

Preliminary design of Volokolamskaja and Mitino
from http://community.livejournal.com/met...rans/4633.html

Volokolamskaja

height of ceiling 8.1 m
column spacing 9 m
to be open in 2009

Mitino

platform width and length are standard 10 m and 162m, respectively
ceiling - 6 m
to be open 2011

Deez · #65 Posted **Mar 13, 2008, 8:33 PM**

Forgive me if this is slightly off-topic, but...

Have there been any serious or frequent disruptions to the metro's above-ground portions due to the effects of climate?

My hometown of Ottawa is currently in the early stages of planning a light rail system that would replace a significant portion of the city's busways. Given that these busways are almost entirely grade separated, I see value in operating a third-rail powered driverless system similar to Vancouver's. However, concerns regarding the effects of snow and ice are often used as reasons to not consider third rail power. Since Moscow's climate is very similar to Ottawa's, could somebody give me an idea of how the system's above-ground portions perform?

bvpcvm · #66 Posted **Mar 14, 2008, 4:10 AM**

there's only one line that has significant above-ground sections: the light-blue (Filyevksaya) line. it runs above ground on a bridge over the Moscow river, and then from just east of Kievskaya, to just west of Molodyezhnaya. there's a short tunnel near Fili station as well. supposedly this line is a bear to maintain because of ice and snow, and the moscow city government periodically comes up with plans to cover it up (it's mostly at-grade or just below-grade, so it wouldn't be hard).

however, i have a hard time understanding why this is such an issue, given that metros in oslo, stockholm and helsinki have significant above-grade sections, to say nothing of the thousands of miles of railway through siberian wilderness that, despite the weather, somehow keeps running.

(moscow's red, dark blue, dark green and purple lines also have short above-ground sections)

anm · #67 Posted **Mar 14, 2008, 5:29 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deez

Forgive me if this is slightly off-topic, but...

Have there been any serious or frequent disruptions to the metro's above-ground portions due to the effects of climate?

My hometown of Ottawa is currently in the early stages of planning a light rail system that would replace a significant portion of the city's busways. Given that these busways are almost entirely grade separated, I see value in operating a third-rail powered driverless system similar to Vancouver's. However, concerns regarding the effects of snow and ice are often used as reasons to not consider third rail power. Since Moscow's climate is very similar to Ottawa's, could somebody give me an idea of how the system's above-ground portions perform?

I have not heard about any problems on those open stretches resulting from the weather conditions. Certainly never heard of any disruption of service, no matter what the weather. I heard of stupid children throwing stones at oncoming trains from overpass bridges, hopefully they solved this problem.

My understanding was that one reason they want to cover those lines is that the area above the lines can be used for something else, such as parking structures, for instance.

Demetrios B. · #68 Posted **Mar 14, 2008, 6:57 PM**

Most problems we have with above-ground stretches are with trains. Firstly, some of new trains (like Yauza-type) are not sertified for the use in below-zero tempatures. Secondly, all of soviet-era and most of postsoviet-era trains have ordinary speed-flow ventilation system, so it can be very cold inside on winter.

coth · #69 Posted **Mar 14, 2008, 10:58 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Demetrios B.

Most problems we have with above-ground stretches are with trains. Firstly, some of new trains (like Yauza-type) are not sertified for the use in below-zero tempatures. Secondly, all of soviet-era and most of postsoviet-era trains have ordinary speed-flow ventilation system, so it can be very cold inside on winter.

There are two open lines (one surface and one elevated) and Yauza trains (81-720/81-721) are not being used on them. 81-740 and 81-741 cars are being used. They works ok as well as old Ezh type trains. There are no any disruptions in service, yet maintenance cost a bit more than on underground lines.

bvpcvm · #70 Posted **Mar 15, 2008, 3:48 AM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by coth

There are two open lines (one surface and one elevated) and Yauza trains (81-720/81-721) are not being used on them. 81-740 and 81-741 cars are being used. They works ok as well as old Ezh type trains. There are no any disruptions in service, yet maintenance cost a bit more than on underground lines.

oh of course, i forgot about the butovskaya line.

the complaints i heard were voiced often on a russian-language forum on yahoo groups - but i can't find the group now. russos posted there all the time. doesn't mean there's anything to those comments, however.

Deez · #71 Posted **Mar 16, 2008, 4:37 PM**

Thanks for the info guys.

I might start a thread to see if I can get some information from people who have used Scandinavian metros

eduardo88 · #72 Posted **Mar 19, 2008, 1:06 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by anm

I do not quite get it. This sounds like Moscow trains are as old as Mumbai trains or something like that. Older than Paris? No. Aesthetically inferior to London, NYC or Tokyo? No way, unless you are biased. They are absolutely fine trains as far as I am concerned. Clean, spacious, safe and fast. I have used trains on a number of US systems and do not see how Moscow trains are worse in any department. What am I missing?

Moscow trains do not have AC, but Moscow climate and the way the whole system is built do not justify AC on trains.

I agree, the trains do their job perfectly, maybe they look old design wise, but they run perfectly, 100x better than London could ever dream of.

I have to dissagree on the AC comment, I wish they had AC on the trains! It's horrible coming from -15 weather outside in your winter clothes, then being crammed into a car with 100 or so other people and roasting until you get out. It's strange to say, but the metro really needs AC during winter!

anm · #73 Posted **Apr 6, 2008, 7:36 AM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by eduardo88

I agree, the trains do their job perfectly, maybe they look old design wise, but they run perfectly, 100x better than London could ever dream of.

I have to dissagree on the AC comment, I wish they had AC on the trains! It's horrible coming from -15 weather outside in your winter clothes, then being crammed into a car with 100 or so other people and roasting until you get out. It's strange to say, but the metro really needs AC during winter!

I understand your sentiment regarding harsh Moscow climate and unpleasantness of having to be crammed in the same car with 100 Russians, but I am afraid you have not fully considered all problems that the use of AC generates.

AC of course does make it colder inside trains, but it also deposits a lot of heat in tunnels and stations. This makes the stations even more uncomfortable during hot weather (ever tried NYC subway during a heat wave?). For use of AC to make any sense, the AC generated heat needs to be properly disposed off from stations and tunnels. This is a problem even for shallow, just below surface stations (typical of American lines running below a street) that can be fairly easily ventilated. With deep stations (like many in Moscow) removal of heat generated by AC would be even more problematic. You would have as a result in winter - cold outside, hot stations and tunnels, cold inside trains. In summer it would be warm/hot outside, even hotter on stations, cold in trains. A lot of expense but not much of an improvement.

AC really works best on open/above ground lines. But Moscow summers are not hot enough to justify AC, and of course during winter you need heating, not cooling on open stretches. Also, since the air in the system comes from outside, it does get cooler on stations in winter in comparison to summer.

It probably would make more sense to cool the air thrown into stations during hot weather (I believe right now it is only filtered from dust, and perhaps not in all cases).

I wonder - do they use AC in Montreal, a city with winters similar to Moscow?

Swede · #74 Posted **Apr 6, 2008, 12:17 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deez

Thanks for the info guys.
I might start a thread to see if I can get some information from people who have used Scandinavian metros

Our winters in Scandinavia are nowhere near as harsh as those in Moscow or Ottawa. Darker, but less cold and less snow.

champdemars · #75 Posted **Apr 6, 2008, 6:36 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deez

Forgive me if this is slightly off-topic, but...

Have there been any serious or frequent disruptions to the metro's above-ground portions due to the effects of climate?

My hometown of Ottawa is currently in the early stages of planning a light rail system that would replace a significant portion of the city's busways. Given that these busways are almost entirely grade separated, I see value in operating a third-rail powered driverless system similar to Vancouver's. However, concerns regarding the effects of snow and ice are often used as reasons to not consider third rail power. Since Moscow's climate is very similar to Ottawa's, could somebody give me an idea of how the system's above-ground portions perform?

The subway in Toronto have many above-ground portions and there is a third rail power... and think about the Scarborough RT line! And Toronto has a much more similar climate than Moscow!

Deez · #76 Posted **Apr 9, 2008, 7:17 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by anm

I wonder - do they use AC in Montreal, a city with winters similar to Moscow?

Montreal metro cars are not air conditioned, but the metro is 100% underground so it is partially insulated from the heat.

Quote:

Originally Posted by champdemars

The subway in Toronto have many above-ground portions and there is a third rail power... and think about the Scarborough RT line! And Toronto has a much more similar climate than Moscow!

Having lived in both cities, I can assure you that winters in Toronto are nothing compared to Ottawa or Montreal. Lake Ontario has a huge moderating effect on temperature. I would say of any other major capital city, Ottawa's climate is most similar to Moscow's.

coth · #77 Posted **Apr 9, 2008, 11:14 PM**

Moscow temp is more like a middle between Minneapolis and New York, closer to Minneapolis. But last two years were closer to New York.

Demetrios B. · #78 Posted **Apr 26, 2008, 6:58 AM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by anm

AC of course does make it colder inside trains, but it also deposits a lot of heat in tunnels and stations. This makes the stations even more uncomfortable during hot weather . For use of AC to make any sense, the AC generated heat needs to be properly disposed off from stations and tunnels.

Are you trying to make a revolution in thermodynamics?

The heat produced by engines and passangers will anyway be transferred to tunnels and stations, without ACs this process is only slowed down. With AC equipped trains, the situation won't change a lot from what we have now at 13-14 hours.

Even in case of heat surproduction, stations are a lot more cool than inside trains due to heat absorption by large masses of concrete.

champdemars · #79 Posted **Apr 26, 2008, 2:05 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Demetrios B.

Are you trying to make a revolution in thermodynamics?

The heat produced by engines and passangers will anyway be transferred to tunnels and stations, without ACs this process is only slowed down. With AC equipped trains, the situation won't change a lot from what we have now at 13-14 hours.

Even in case of heat surproduction, stations are a lot more cool than inside trains due to heat absorption by large masses of concrete.

You should tell that to the responsible of the Montreal's metro. They are currently looking to buy new trains, but AC is not considered, because it's supposed to overheat stations. Since our metro is 100% underground, there is not many air exits.

Gava · #80 Posted **Apr 26, 2008, 5:13 PM**

Actually winter conditions aren't that problematic for rail operators as there are a number of techniques to combat snow and ice. The autumn on the other hand is a different cup of tea, falling leafs on the rails can cause huge delays in traffic. Because they wear down the weels of the railcars special machines have to be in constant move to clear tracks of leafs. This is a mayor headache for railoperators during autumn.