Official SSP Denver Transit Plan - Comment on final routes now

[bcp]

some good points W...

before we get route specific - from a strategic POV what do you think of a) through-lines only and b) terminating, when possible, at FT stations?

[bunt_q]

Originally Posted by wong21fr

Bunt, how does a special taxing district, say for a new levy, work voting wise? Is it only voted on by those residents who reside in the district or would it still be a citywide vote? Could such a district be automatically expanded to include additional transit lines in the future or would such an expansion require a new vote?

Depends, but it would only be those within the proposed area called on to vote.

Future expansions would require a vote (put that vote would be to include - then they'd be subject to the same tax structure). Or else you do multiple different ones.

Never been done, so I'd need to look into it in more detail. But it's long been something I want to pursue. May need a legislative tweak or two, but nothing that would be hard to get probably.

[bcp]

bunt you mentioned mill levy for people within a mile of the routes...what about doing a proportionate reduction for people farther away? they'll still benefit from the system, but less directly so a lower RE tax for them? plus, it gets more in the coffers.

[seventwenty]

Originally Posted by Cirrus

State funding:
lol.
Seriously though, multiple states have raised transportation funding in recent years, since the feds have been so terrible at it. But what are the chances? Is anyone in Colorado talking about that at all?

Just to add on this point.

Study says Colorado faces significant budget shortfall in future

"Policymakers will have to make some tough choices regarding what gets funded and what doesn't in the future," said Brown, the director of the Colorado Futures Center at Colorado State University. "And none of those decisions will be an easy step."

The center's study looks at the factors shaping the state's general fund and their impact over the next 17 years. In the 2011 version, it was thought expenditures would exceed revenue by $3.5 billion in fiscal year 2024-25. Now, it says the deficit will begin in 2014-15, with a gap of $1.5 billion in 2024-25, and reach $2.9 billion by 2029-30.

I dunno anything about this organization, but those numbers aren't even close to rosey.

[bunt_q]

Originally Posted by bcp

bunt you mentioned mill levy for people within a mile of the routes...what about doing a proportionate reduction for people farther away? they'll still benefit from the system, but less directly so a lower RE tax for them? plus, it gets more in the coffers.

That would be unconstitutional, actually. Everybody within the same jurisdiction has to be taxed by the same rules.

I suppose you could do layered (cumulative, overlapping) districts with different mill levies in each - like a wedding cake. So the people closest have the 100-foot mill levy, the 500-foot mill levy, the 1,000 foot mill levy, the 2000-foot mill levy, and the 1-mile mill levy. People 1,500 feet out would only be subject to two of them. And so forth. But that would require 5 elections... Ah, TABOR, glorious TABOR.

The biggest question is whether we have one that would work for a streetcar at all. I need to look at that...

[bcp]

eh, mill levy for everybody! multiple ballot initiatives will confuse the masses...unless they are for EACH line - corridors that lobby and support get the goods, others may not...still, I'd be much more willing to vote for a "tax all" then just for a "tax people within a mile of the line".

[seventwenty]

Could we make a special district for the new lines? An RTD+ district?

[electricron]

Isn't it a little early to be discussing additional streetcars and rapid bus lines within the city of Denver? All discussions now should be about completing Fast Tracks first.
You will never get financial and political support needed for any new projects until your last projects are completed, or at least are under construction.
Boulder was promised rail, it'll have to have a rail system of some sort before you'll have the faith restored. People expect all of the existing promises to be fulfilled before they will accept new promises.
If it's too expensive to build a rail line all the way to Boulder from Denver, then building a streetcar line in Boulder should predate doing so in Denver.

[wong21fr]

Originally Posted by electricron

Isn't it a little early to be discussing additional streetcars and rapid bus lines within the city of Denver? All discussions now should be about completing Fast Tracks first.
You will never get financial and political support needed for any new projects until your last projects are completed, or at least are under construction.
Boulder was promised rail, it'll have to have a rail system of some sort before you'll have the faith restored. People expect all of the existing promises to be fulfilled before they will accept new promises.
If it's too expensive to build a rail line all the way to Boulder from Denver, then building a streetcar line in Boulder should predate doing so in Denver.

This is about Denver improving the transit network within the city by funding the improvement themselves. It would be a city and county project, not an RTD project. It has nothing to do with FasTracks asides from improving the connectivity of the FasTracks station with the rest of Denver's transit system.

If Boulder, Arvada, Aurora, etc wanted to do a streetcar, than they can pay for it themselves. Boulder already does this for enhanced bus service.

[bunt_q]

Originally Posted by electricron

Isn't it a little early to be discussing additional streetcars and rapid bus lines within the city of Denver? All discussions now should be about completing Fast Tracks first.
You will never get financial and political support needed for any new projects until your last projects are completed, or at least are under construction.
Boulder was promised rail, it'll have to have a rail system of some sort before you'll have the faith restored. People expect all of the existing promises to be fulfilled before they will accept new promises.
If it's too expensive to build a rail line all the way to Boulder from Denver, then building a streetcar line in Boulder should predate doing so in Denver.

Originally Posted by wong21fr

This is about Denver improving the transit network within the city by funding the improvement themselves. It would be a city and county project, not an RTD project. It has nothing to do with FasTracks asides from improving the connectivity of the FasTracks station with the rest of Denver's transit system.

If Boulder, Arvada, Aurora, etc wanted to do a streetcar, than they can pay for it themselves. Boulder already does this for enhanced bus service.

I'll second what wong is saying. As far as Denver is concerned, Fastracks is all but done. Whatever happens going forward is completely inconsequential to Denver. There has not been a positive thing said about the Northwest line anywhere outside of Boulder in over a year now (read the Denver Post editorials on the subject). That rail line is going to be left to die on the vine slowly, and nobody outside of Boulder will care. There is absolutely zero chance the northwest rail line gets built as originally proposed. It can't happen without a new tax (ridership is too low to attract private or federal money), and a new tax for it is unwinnable. (Unlike a Denver-only tax, which is very winnable.)

I'll add - modeled ridership projections for a lowly (and cheap) streetcar on Colfax are 5-times higher than the projected ridership on the billion dollar boondoggle to Boulder.

[bobg]

Originally Posted by bunt_q

I'll second what wong is saying. As far as Denver is concerned, Fastracks is all but done. Whatever happens going forward is completely inconsequential to Denver. There has not been a positive thing said about the Northwest line anywhere outside of Boulder in over a year now (read the Denver Post editorials on the subject). That rail line is going to be left to die on the vine slowly, and nobody outside of Boulder will care. There is absolutely zero chance the northwest rail line gets built as originally proposed. It can't happen without a new tax (ridership is too low to attract private or federal money), and a new tax for it is unwinnable. (Unlike a Denver-only tax, which is very winnable.)

I'll add - modeled ridership projections for a lowly (and cheap) streetcar on Colfax are 5-times higher than the projected ridership on the billion dollar boondoggle to Boulder.

Thirded. One more thing I would add is that a district wide vote for what we are advocating would never be politically feasible. The only way to get a region-wide tax for streetcars/BRT in Denver would be to bribe the suburbs with some absurd lines (like NW rail).

Originally Posted by bcp

eh, mill levy for everybody! multiple ballot initiatives will confuse the masses...unless they are for EACH line - corridors that lobby and support get the goods, others may not...still, I'd be much more willing to vote for a "tax all" then just for a "tax people within a mile of the line".

If we propose a city-wide mill levy I have a hard time believing the vote would pass unless we had a plan that did something city-wide. Which would mean we need to add those enhanced bus services to the more suburban parts of the city, so a plan closer to what Cirrus proposed. If we just want build select high quality streetcar/BRT lines it should probably be in a smaller tax district.

[electricron]

Originally Posted by bunt_q

I'll second what wong is saying. As far as Denver is concerned, Fastracks is all but done. Whatever happens going forward is completely inconsequential to Denver. There has not been a positive thing said about the Northwest line anywhere outside of Boulder in over a year now (read the Denver Post editorials on the subject). That rail line is going to be left to die on the vine slowly, and nobody outside of Boulder will care. There is absolutely zero chance the northwest rail line gets built as originally proposed. It can't happen without a new tax (ridership is too low to attract private or federal money), and a new tax for it is unwinnable. (Unlike a Denver-only tax, which is very winnable.)

I'll add - modeled ridership projections for a lowly (and cheap) streetcar on Colfax are 5-times higher than the projected ridership on the billion dollar boondoggle to Boulder.

You have excellent points about ridership. But you looked over my point about trust. Sure, Denver can go to its citizens and ask for a new tax to build streetcars independently. They will promise streetcar lines over many streets to every neighborhood in the city to find sufficient votes to pass. Many will ask the question, which lines will NOT be built? Without trust that they all will be built, do you really expect that referendum will pass? Trust must be maintained, and the best way to get it is to keep your promises, not to break them.
The northwest line to Boulder is not the only Fast Tracks line remaining unbuilt as promised, the line to the north is also lacking funds. In fact, every line heading north of I-70 will not be built as promised. It might have been a mistake to promise more than what could be fulfilled, but those promises were made to get a referendum passed. Voters will remember unfulfilled promises on the next referendum.

[Interzen]

Originally Posted by electricron

Many will ask the question, which lines will NOT be built? Without trust that they all will be built, do you really expect that referendum will pass? Trust must be maintained, and the best way to get it is to keep your promises, not to break them.

The Denver voter is savvy enough to realize that fastracks was mostly for the suburban commuters. The main benefit for the city is that we are able to start reclaiming parking lots in the CBD. As Bunt said, Denver residents don't worry that much about the pace of RTD's build-out of Fastracks after the line to DIA opens. They would also be able to identify this as a city project separate from the Regional Transportation District.

[PLANSIT]

Originally Posted by electricron

You have excellent points about ridership. But you looked over my point about trust. Sure, Denver can go to its citizens and ask for a new tax to build streetcars independently. They will promise streetcar lines over many streets to every neighborhood in the city to find sufficient votes to pass. Many will ask the question, which lines will NOT be built? Without trust that they all will be built, do you really expect that referendum will pass? Trust must be maintained, and the best way to get it is to keep your promises, not to break them.
The northwest line to Boulder is not the only Fast Tracks line remaining unbuilt as promised, the line to the north is also lacking funds. In fact, every line heading north of I-70 will not be built as promised. It might have been a mistake to promise more than what could be fulfilled, but those promises were made to get a referendum passed. Voters will remember unfulfilled promises on the next referendum.

Rail lines north of I-70:

East Line - Built as promised
Gold Line - Built as promised
NW Line - Not being built at all
North Line - Being built to 124th

Am I missing something?

[Octavian]

I like the idea of the Colfax line joining the light rail line to go to DUS. I think its important to have Aurora involved in the Colfax line because the natural eastern anchor is Fitz. Also, how would the interface of the Colfax line and the I-225 line work? Maybe it goes north on peoria to peoria station and there is a Fitz station on the west side of the campus on peoria? Maybe it goes down colfax all the way to the 225 line and trains continue on along the south corridor? I think its important to think about how this connection will work.

A hard area to service is Highlands, because there are so many barriers between DUS and Highlands (RR Tracks, the River, I-25). Maybe the way to do it is from a Colfax line that turns north onto Federal. Heading west, you could have 2 termini for the colfax trains, DUS vs CPV and Highlands via North Federal.

I don't really know what a downtown spine train adds that isn't already being done with the Mall Ride and new downtown circulator.

Cherry Creek Route seems good.

As for financing, I would look at a land value tax (different than property tax..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Land_value_tax

[bunt_q]

Originally Posted by electricron

Many will ask the question, which lines will NOT be built? Without trust that they all will be built, do you really expect that referendum will pass? Trust must be maintained, and the best way to get it is to keep your promises, not to break them.

It wouldn't be RTD, though. It would be the City. I don't think the lack of trust transfers just because they are both talking about trains. RTD wouldn't be involved at all.

Unrelated, but I also think RTD has regained a lot of the trust around the metro area because of the rather incredible job they've done managing to get nearly the entire program built without actually having to go back to the voters for more. RTD has made magic and forged private sector partnerships that is truly uncharacteristic for a public agency. And they have come through on everything now except the northwest line. (The north to 124th is fine - it's still undeveloped north of that for the most part, and the ROW is there - I don't think anybody up there is concerned that it is stopping short in the interim.)

EDIT: Just realized you might not know that the north line was approved. Link here: http://www.denverpost.com/breakingne...orth-rail-line

Is there a trust deficit in the northwest corridor? I am sure there is. But frankly, Boulder does not matter anymore for regional elections - the population is simply not large enough.

[bunt_q]

Originally Posted by Octavian

Also, how would the interface of the Colfax line and the I-225 line work?

I think the streetcar stays on Colfax. 225 line will have a station literally over top of Colfax. Get off streetcar, go up the stairs, easy. There is no need to connect to the airport line on the east side. Guesstimate here, but I am certain the ridership demand for a one seat ride from the eastern half of the Colfax line directly to the airport (but which would not alternatively park-n-ride/bus at Colorado, or be unwilling to ride the 225 line up one stop) is not enough to justify another mile-plus of track. Nowhere close to justified.

Originally Posted by Octavian

A hard area to service is Highlands, because there are so many barriers between DUS and Highlands

I don't really know what a downtown spine train adds that isn't already being done with the Mall Ride and new downtown circulator.

Straight up 15th - done.

As for the downtown spine - it's a one seat ride from everywhere else on the streetcar system into downtown, without a transfer on to an already burdened mall shuttle. That is the most important piece of the whole system. As RTD will learn shortly, it's important to get people as close as possible to where they want to be. It's not enough to get them close and then say transfer. Major ridership impact when you do that.

Originally Posted by Octavian

As for financing, I would look at a land value tax (different than property tax..

A land value tax would not be permitted under current Colorado law. Maybe that could be changed, but you'd be talking about a major legislative change, much bigger than just a streetcar.

[Octavian]

Originally Posted by bunt_q

I think the streetcar stays on Colfax. 225 line will have a station literally over top of Colfax. Get off streetcar, go up the stairs, easy. There is no need to connect to the airport line on the east side. Guesstimate here, but I am certain the ridership demand for a one seat ride from the eastern half of the Colfax line directly to the airport (but which would not alternatively park-n-ride/bus at Colorado, or be unwilling to ride the 225 line up one stop) is not enough to justify another mile-plus of track. Nowhere close to justified.



Straight up 15th - done.

As for the downtown spine - it's a one seat ride from everywhere else on the streetcar system into downtown, without a transfer on to an already burdened mall shuttle. That is the most important piece of the whole system. As RTD will learn shortly, it's important to get people as close as possible to where they want to be. It's not enough to get them close and then say transfer. Major ridership impact when you do that.



A land value tax would not be permitted under current Colorado law. Maybe that could be changed, but you'd be talking about a major legislative change, much bigger than just a streetcar.

Land Value tax? Even with election? I don't really know but will take your word for it.

15th is the most logical way to do it but it duplicates a lot of the function of the MallRide. 15th doesn't interphase as well with DUS as using the existing track to get to the existing light rail station (i guess it's a block away if you put the station on Wewatta, but you're spreading out DUS even more than it already is).

Another thing about Colfax at Fitz, the hospital will probably put up obstacles like they did with the light rail line with regards to their equipment.

[Cirrus]

Cost assumptions:

We need to fill in this worksheet, with data from recent studies or comparable projects. Want to do something helpful but not as fun as mapping routes? Google this and help fill it out. Cite your sources.

Streetcar: According to the 2010 Colfax Streetcar study, $30-40 million per mile for a double track line, half that for single track. I want 1 number for the sake of simplicity for us, and we should be conservative. So $40 million per mile for double track is a good estimate. We can use that for streetcar lines.

BRT: This will be complicated, because BRT in a full-on transitway might be as or more expensive than mixed-traffic streetcar, but lesser BRT with dedicated lanes and some mixed traffic will be a lot less. We'll need estimates for both. Unfortunately neither the Ft Collins nor VelociRFTA BRT are going to be very helpful, because neither is on an arterial road.

Transitway (regardless of mode): What if we want to run our streetcar in a transitway and make it operate more like light rail? That'll cost more. We need to know about how much.

Transit lane (regardless of mode): If we're happy just designating an existing lane for transit only, that will have a minimal cost, but we'll need to say something. Maybe $1 million / mile, but I'd like to have an example.

Important note: We need recent studies/examples that are from Colorado or other interior west cities. Examples from New York or Los Angeles are less helpful because the costs are typically higher there. If we have to go farther afield we will, but local & recent is best.

[RyanD]

Originally Posted by Cirrus

Important note: We need recent studies/examples that are from Colorado or other interior west cities. Examples from New York or Los Angeles are less helpful because the costs are typically higher there.

Isn't SLC building out some streetcar lines?

EDIT: Or better yet didn't OKC just APPROVE something around 5 streetcar lines? I'm sure costs would be similar between those two and us.