Philadelphia Transportation Thread

[Nexis4Jersey]

Well alot of the regional expansions and some of the Trolley restorations and expansions cost between 150-500 Million. Due to the ROW being intact or in use and Penndot replacing some of the Trolley lines when it rebuilt the streets. Only a few proposed projects cost a billion or more like the Roosevelt Subway or the Reading line. Hench why I question Septa's leadership during the Rendell years , he Supported both Septa and PAT and gave them more funding. PAT expanding and replaced alot , while Septa sat on its ass and did basically nothing...

[volguus zildrohar]

Originally Posted by Nexis4Jersey

Well alot of the regional expansions and some of the Trolley restorations and expansions cost between 150-500 Million. Due to the ROW being intact or in use and Penndot replacing some of the Trolley lines when it rebuilt the streets. Only a few proposed projects cost a billion or more like the Roosevelt Subway or the Reading line. Hench why I question Septa's leadership during the Rendell years , he Supported both Septa and PAT and gave them more funding. PAT expanding and replaced alot , while Septa sat on its ass and did basically nothing...

During the Rendell administration:

PAT: North Shore Connector, East Busway extension.

SEPTA: Reinstating 15 trolley, MSE Reconstruction, renovation of Frankford Terminal, rehab of several BSS stations.

Let's not count vehicle acquisition, overhaul or any suburban renovations/extensions.

Perhaps Pittsburgh expanded the physical plant more. Considering there's considerably less physical plant for them to expand as compared to SEPTA I don't see how you're saying one agency did less than the other.

[Nexis4Jersey]

Originally Posted by volguus zildrohar

During the Rendell administration:

PAT: North Shore Connector, East Busway extension.

SEPTA: Reinstating 15 trolley, MSE Reconstruction, renovation of Frankford Terminal, rehab of several BSS stations.

Let's not count vehicle acquisition, overhaul or any suburban renovations/extensions.

Perhaps Pittsburgh expanded the physical plant more. Considering there's considerably less physical plant for them to expand as compared to SEPTA I don't see how you're saying one agency did less than the other.

Thats still small talk compared to NJT ...

during the last decade ...NJT built this...which Septa should have at least built more..

RiverLine LRT - 34 mi
Hudson Bergen LRT Phase 2 - 10 mi
Newark Broad Street LRT - 2 Mi
Upgraded or replaced 60 Rail stations
Upgraded or Replaced 12 Bus Terminals
Hoboken Terminal Restoration
Montclair Line Rebuild
North Jersey Coast line rebuild
Replaced Bus rolling stock
Replaced Commuter Rail locos

[volguus zildrohar]

You weren't talking about NJT. You were talking about Pennsylvania.

Hench why I question Septa's leadership during the Rendell years , he Supported both Septa and PAT and gave them more funding. PAT expanding and replaced alot , while Septa sat on its ass and did basically nothing...

I don't believe Ed Rendell cared a whit about what NJT did with NJT's money because it was not coming from Ed Rendell. You could bring up one of five or six systems across the US and make the same comparisons with NJT if you wanted.

NJT is also a statewide agency. Their charter does not restrict them to one region of one state so I'd expect them to be doing much more with their resources - they are required to.

The original question remains: comparing PAT to SEPTA, how do you say the former did so much and the latter did so little with appropriations from Harrisburg?

[Nexis4Jersey]

Originally Posted by volguus zildrohar

You weren't talking about NJT. You were talking about Pennsylvania.



I don't believe Ed Rendell cared a whit about what NJT did with NJT's money because it was not coming from Ed Rendell. You could bring up one of five or six systems across the US and make the same comparisons with NJT if you wanted.

NJT is also a statewide agency. Their charter does not restrict them to one region of one state so I'd expect them to be doing much more with their resources - they are required to.

The original question remains: comparing PAT to SEPTA, how do you say the former did so much and the latter did so little with appropriations from Harrisburg?

I'm trying to say that NJT has built 2x what Septa and PAT have built or upgraded over the last 10 years. Clearly its more of a leadership problem at both agencies then Harrisburg. It doesn't matter if NJT is a statewide agency vs Septa regional agency status....Septa should still be able to get more done. I don't under why they didn't push the easier and cheaper Regional Rail upgrades during the Rendell years?

[thenbagis]

To me the West Chester line is a no brainer. Primarily because there is absolutely no good way to get there from Philly by car. So, SEPTA wouldn't have competition, and would have a better chance of increasing ridership. Unfortunately, I believe the current funding mechanisms look at how transit expansion will decrease traffic. So, immediately, there is no way to fund it.

[Jonboy1983]

I believe the current funding mechanisms look at how transit expansion will decrease traffic. So, immediately, there is no way to fund it.

That, to me, is the most absurd thing I've ever heard...

Decrease in traffic, as in automobile traffic? In my opinion, you're always going to have high traffic. Public transportation, especially commuter rail or even BRT can provide a bypass around the bottlenecks.

So by that logic, the Schuylkill Expressway should be empty because of the R5 and R6 lines.

Then we need to fix our funding mechanisms or develop new ones; ones that leave out the effects on the automobile...

[Nexis4Jersey]

Originally Posted by Jonboy1983

That, to me, is the most absurd thing I've ever heard...

Decrease in traffic, as in automobile traffic? In my opinion, you're always going to have high traffic. Public transportation, especially commuter rail or even BRT can provide a bypass around the bottlenecks.

So by that logic, the Schuylkill Expressway should be empty because of the R5 and R6 lines.

Then we need to fix our funding mechanisms or develop new ones; ones that leave out the effects on the automobile...

Well to be fair I think if the Reading line , Philly Urban Rail system were restored and expanded and the Norristown line was extended to KOP / Valley Forge then Traffic along I-76 wouldn't be a nightmare. Most people using I-76 are from areas that used to have Rail but don't and thus they drive into Philly.

[thenbagis]

Originally Posted by Jonboy1983

That, to me, is the most absurd thing I've ever heard...

Decrease in traffic, as in automobile traffic? In my opinion, you're always going to have high traffic. Public transportation, especially commuter rail or even BRT can provide a bypass around the bottlenecks.

So by that logic, the Schuylkill Expressway should be empty because of the R5 and R6 lines.

Then we need to fix our funding mechanisms or develop new ones; ones that leave out the effects on the automobile...

So, apparently I was kind of wrong. The federal funding mechanism used to heavily favor hours saved by commuters. Supposedly this was changed in 2010.

US Government Plans Overhaul of New Start Funding Guidelines, Reducing Importance of Cost-Effectiveness
Yonah Freemark January 13th, 2010
http://www.thetransportpolitic.com/2...effectiveness/

“The cost-benefit analysis is heavily biased towards the number of annual hours commuters will save by using the new transit system. This means that people who already have longer commutes are seen as more valuable for the FTA than those who choose to live in in-town locations with shorter distances between their residences and workplaces. As a result, transit networks are encouraged to extend out into the suburbs, rather than be densified and reinforced downtown.“

(the quoted part was the part I remembered and based my opinion on service to West Chester)

[M II A II R II K]

How to Make Over the Benjamin Franklin Parkway?


07/19/2012

By Milton Lindsay

Read More: http://americancity.org/daily/entry/...anklin-parkway

The Benjamin Franklin Parkway is one of Philadelphia’s most critical arteries. The mile-long stretch of road, lined with flags from 90 countries from around the world, connects some of the most visible civic and cultural centers of the city. But despite nearly $20 million worth of investments over the past decade, the Parkway remains little more than a pleasant-looking conduit used to get from point A to point B.

- However, the city has begun work to change this. The Philadelphia Department of Parks and Recreation, along with two arms of the University of Pennsylvania, have begun work to transform the Parkway and turn into a regional attraction, rather than just another one of the city’s corridors. In charge are PennPraxis, the research arm of UPenn’s School of Design, and the Penn Project for Civic Engagement, a program at the university’s School of Education. The first step, though, is hearing from actual Philadelphians.

- Harris Steinberg, founding executive director of PennPraxis, said that residents will be asked what they currently use the Parkway for, possible amenities that they would like to see added, and finally what they view are some potential barriers to their suggestions becoming a reality. According to Steinberg, the focus of these projects will not be to create a new series of large-scale, long-term commercial developments. Instead, “[PennPraxis] is aiming for ‘quick hits’ to make the pedestrian experience along the Parkway more user-friendly.” Steinberg said a potential model for the Parkway is Franklin Square, a public park across the city that, in the last five years or so, has been transformed from a barren urban wasteland into a thriving public space, replete with small-scale commercial amenities like a miniature golf course and carousel.

.....

[McBane]

Two comments in the article - one about the need for more retail and the other for the need for more cafes.

The BFP will need more than either retail or cafes. You can't just plop down cafes on the BFP and expect that residents of Fairmount and Center City will walk past cafes in their neighborhood to have a snack or coffee on the Parkway.

EDIT: You can't solve the Parkway without density. It needs more full time residents and more development.

[Nexis4Jersey]

Continuing on with the station by station stuff...the Map will be fixed later today

https://maps.google.com/maps/ms?msid...27942,0.617294

Current , Proposed / Planned or Under Construction Stations

Urban Heavy Rail & Urban & Suburban Trolleys

Current Network

Heavy Rail

Broad Street line
Fern Rock
Olney
Logan
Wyoming
Hunting Park
Erie
Allegheny
North Philadelphia
Susquehanna–Dauphin
Cecil B. Moore
Girard
Fairmount
Spring Garden
Race–Vine
City Hall
Walnut–Locust
Lombard–South
Ellsworth–Federal
Tasker–Morris
Snyder
Oregon
Pattison
11th - Oiagonal
Fort Enterprise

Broad Street Spur
Fern Rock
Olney
Erie
North Philadelphia
Girard
Spring Garden
Chinatown
8th Street

Market - Frankford line
Strahie Street Terminal
Rhawn Street
Napfle Street
Cottman Ave
Knorr Street
Roosevelt Bouevard
Frankford Transportation Center
Margaret-Orthodox
Church
Erie-Torresdale
Tioga
Allegheny
Somerset
Huntingdon
York-Dauphin
Berks
Girard
Spring Garden
2nd Street
5th Street
8th Street
11th Street
13th Street
15th Street
30th Street
34th Street
40th Street
46th Street
52nd Street
56th Street
60th Street
63rd Street
Millbourne
69th Street Terminal


Norristown High Speed Line
Norristown Transportation Center
Bridgeport
DeKalb Street
Hughes Park
Gulph Mills
Matsonford
County Line
Villanova
Stadium – Ithan Avenue
Garrett Hill
Roberts Road
Bryn Mawr
Haverford
Ardmore Avenue
Ardmore Junction
Wynnewood Road
Beechwood–Brookline
Penfield
Township Line Road
Parkview
69th Street Terminal

PATCO High Speed line
15th–16th & Locust
12–13th & Locust
9–10th & Locust
8th & Market
Franklin Square
City Hall
Broadway
Ferry Avenue
Collingswood
Westmont
Haddonfield
Woodcrest
Ashland
Lindenwold

Suburban Trolleys

101 Media Trolley
69th Street Terminal
Fairfield Avenue
Walnut Street
Avon Road
Hilltop Road
Beverly Boulevard
Congress Avenue
Lansdowne Avenue
Drexel Park
Irvington Road
Drexel Hill Junction
Huey Avenue
School Lane
Aronimink
Anderson Avenue
Drexelbrook
Drexeline
Scenic Road
Springfield Road
Saxer Avenue
Leamy Avenue
Woodland Avenue
Thomson Avenue
Springfield Mall
Paper Mill Road
Pine Ridge
Beatty Road
Providence Road
Manchester Avenue
Edgemont Street
Monroe Street
Jackson Street
Olive Street
Veterans Square
Media–Orange Street

102 Sharon Hill Trolley
69th Street Terminal
Fairfield Avenue
Walnut Street
Avon Road
Hilltop Road
Beverly Boulevard
Congress Avenue
Lansdowne Avenue
Drexel Park
Irvington Road
Drexel Hill Junction
Garrettford
Drexel Manor
Marshall Road
Creek Road
Baltimore Pike
Penn Street
Springfield Road
Clifton–Aldan
Providence Road
Magnolia Avenue
North Street
Bartram Avenue
Andrews Avenue
MacDade Boulevard
Sharon Hill

RiverLINE
West Trenton Transit Hub
Lower Ferry Road
Parkside Ave
Prospect Street
Calhoun & Bernard Street
Calhoun & Passaic Street
State House
State and Warren Street
State and Canal Street
Trenton Transit Center
Hamilton Ave
Cass Street
Bordentown
Roebling
Florence
Burlington Towne Centre
Burlington South
Beverly-Edgewater Park
Delanco
Riverside
Cinnaminson
Riverton
Palmyra
Pennsauken-Route 73
Pennsauken Transit Center
36th Street
Walter Rand Transportation ctr
Cooper St-Rutgers Univ.
Aquarium
Entertainment Center



Future Network

Heavy Rail Network

Roosevelt Boulevard Subway
Woodhaven Road Park & Ridge
Red Lion Road
Grant Ave - Northeast Philadelphia Airport
Holme Ave
Cottman Ave
Bustleton Ave
Castor Ave
Whitaker Ave
North 5th Street
Hunting Park
Erie
Allegheny
North Philadelphia
Susquehanna–Dauphin
Cecil B. Moore
Girard
Fairmount
Spring Garden
Race–Vine
City Hall
Walnut–Locust
Lombard–South
Ellsworth–Federal
Tasker–Morris
Snyder
Oregon
Pattison
11th - Oiagonal
Fort Enterprise

Norristown High Speed Line Extension
Valley Forge Transit Center
Valley Forge National Historical Park
Village at Valley Forge
King of Prussia
Hughes Park
Gulph Mills
Matsonford
County Line
Villanova
Stadium – Ithan Avenue
Garrett Hill
Roberts Road
Bryn Mawr
Haverford
Ardmore Avenue
Ardmore Junction
Wynnewood Road
Beechwood–Brookline
Penfield
Township Line Road
Parkview
69th Street Terminal


Trolleys

Ivy Ridge Trolley - Route 17
Upper Ivy Ridge
Leverington Ave
Belmont Ave
Conshohocken State Road
City Ave
Wynnefield Avenue
Bryn Mawr Ave
52nd & West Jefferson Street
West Philadelphia Transit Center
(Continues along Route 10 Till Center City)

City Branch Trolley
Girard Av & 63rd St
(Continues along Route 15 intill Girard Av & 33rd St)
Sedgley Dr
North 52nd Street
Spring Garden Street
North 21st Street
North 18th Street
Board Street
(S-Curves onto Callowhill Street)
Callowhill & Ridge Ave
Callowhill & 6th Ave
Callowhill & 3rd Ave
Callowhill & Riverfront

Waterfront Trolley
Richmond St & Westmoreland
(Continues along Route 15 Intill Girard Av & Frankford Av)
Sugar House Casino
Delaware Av & Penn St
Spring Garden Street
Callowhill & Riverfront
Race Street Pier
Market St
Walnut St
Spruce St
Christian St
Washington Ave
Tasker Ave
East Snyder Ave
IKEA Dr
(Branches Continue to Naval Yard and Stadiums)

Glassboro / Millville Branch
Walter Rand Transportation ctr
Cooper Hospital
Atlantic Ave
Gloucester City
Crown Point Road
Red Bank Ave
Cooper Street
Woodbury Heights
Wenonah
Mantra Boulevard
Sewell
Pitman
Rowan University
Glassboro
Clayton
Newfield
Oak Road
Landis Ave
Walnut Road
Route 55 Park / Ride
Broad Street
Main Street

Pennsville Light Rail
Walter Rand Transportation ctr
Cooper Hospital
Atlantic Ave
Gloucester City
Crown Point Road
Red Bank Ave
Cooper Street
North Delaware Street
Gibbtown
Bridgeport
Penns Grove
Cameys Point
Pennsville

Bridgeton Branch
Walter Rand Transportation ctr
Cooper Hospital
Atlantic Ave
Gloucester City
Crown Point Road
Red Bank Ave
Cooper Street
Woodbury Heights
Wenonah
Mantra Boulevard
Sewell
Pitman
Rowan University
Glassboro
Clayton
Newfield
Oak Road
Delsea Drive
Morton Ave
Rosenhayn Ave
Downtown Bridgeton

[josef]

New rail stations, tunnel to airport eyed for Philadelphia

By Paul Nussbaum
Inquirer Staff Writer

If bullet trains someday race up and down the East Coast, they may not stop at 30th Street Station.

Amtrak and city officials envision a new high-speed rail station on Market Street east of City Hall, linked by a 10-mile tunnel to Philadelphia International Airport, where a second new station would be built.

The neoclassical 30th Street Station, opened in 1933 by the Pennsylvania Railroad and touted by Trains Magazine last year as "America's Finest Railroad Station," would become a hub for slower intercity trains and commuter service.

Amtrak, which owns the station, says a new high-speed rail alignment beneath Center City would allow bullet trains to avoid speed-killing curves and space limits near 30th Street Station, helping meet a goal of 37-minute train trips between Philadelphia and New York by 2040.

http://www.philly.com/philly/busines...ladelphia.html

[McBane]

Originally Posted by josef

http://www.philly.com/philly/busines...ladelphia.html

Read a good quote in the comments section (surprising, I know). But really, why is that Americans are so resistant to improving our aging infrastructure (for an industrialized country, we are way behind in many areas, not least rail)?

I would love for every article that talks about the billions needed to fund rail to discuss how many billions Iraq of Afghanistan cost or how many billions we spend on defense. Those wars probably cost us hundreds of billions. I'd just like to put the conversation into perspective.

The other issue is time. Yes, a comprehensive HSR system will cost the nation at least $100 billion....but over the course of 20-30 years. Going back to the wars, how long did it take for the US to spend $100 billion in Iraq?

Imagine this kind of thinking back in 1950 and we wouldn't have our national highway system! The same folks would probably be calling I-95, et. al. a "boondoggle"!

[josef]

Originally Posted by McBane

Read a good quote in the comments section (surprising, I know). But really, why is that Americans are so resistant to improving our aging infrastructure (for an industrialized country, we are way behind in many areas, not least rail)?

I would love for every article that talks about the billions needed to fund rail to discuss how many billions Iraq of Afghanistan cost or how many billions we spend on defense. Those wars probably cost us hundreds of billions. I'd just like to put the conversation into perspective.

The other issue is time. Yes, a comprehensive HSR system will cost the nation at least $100 billion....but over the course of 20-30 years. Going back to the wars, how long did it take for the US to spend $100 billion in Iraq?

Imagine this kind of thinking back in 1950 and we wouldn't have our national highway system! The same folks would probably be calling I-95, et. al. a "boondoggle"!

I couldn't've put it any better myself. That's just about the first thing I think of when people say stuff like this is too expensive. Not only did we lose billions of dollars in the Middle East, but we sent people there to die. That's a fair expense. The least we can do is invest some major money into the continued prosperity of one of the biggest economic engines this country has.

Alternatively, one could make a more self-serving argument. That is, how many hours of our lives are we willing to waste in traffic every year? The roadways are more congested all the time, and the entire Northeast region is only going to increase in population in the future.

It's promising to me that Amtrak has seen record ridership numbers in most years in the past decade. People are already choosing to ditch the highway for the train. I just hope people find the political will to do something bold and important like we used to do decades ago.

[Jonboy1983]

Nexis4Jersey, is that Roosevelt Blvd Subway an extension/new branch of of the Broad Street Line? It looks as though it may be...

Ok, I think I answered my own question, and it indeed looks like a new spur off of the Broad Street line. It seems it will follow the US 13 spur of Hunting Park Ave to the Roosevelt Blvd. You know what would be cool? If they could take some techniques from the new Gateway Center LRT stop in Downtown Pittsburgh and incorporate some of those designs to a few stations or so along this extension; have some glass enclosure in the grass median with access points on either side of the outer lanes.

[hammersklavier]

Originally Posted by McBane

Two comments in the article - one about the need for more retail and the other for the need for more cafes.

The BFP will need more than either retail or cafes. You can't just plop down cafes on the BFP and expect that residents of Fairmount and Center City will walk past cafes in their neighborhood to have a snack or coffee on the Parkway.

EDIT: You can't solve the Parkway without density. It needs more full time residents and more development.

No one wants to embrace the paradigm shift needed for that to happen, though...as I discovered to my surprise.

Originally Posted by josef

http://www.philly.com/philly/busines...ladelphia.html

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA That thing will not cost $3 bil...Not even close. Similar project comparisons coupled with understanding the underlying geology and overlying geography and the engineering needed show that it will cost at minimum $10 bil, and more likely closer to $15 bil...several orders of magnitude more than that asinine number they're parroting.

Honestly, how dumb do they think we are? Right after that Big Dig mess up in Boston, too.

[Nexis4Jersey]

Originally Posted by hammersklavier

No one wants to embrace the paradigm shift needed for that to happen, though...as I discovered to my surprise.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA That thing will not cost $3 bil...Not even close. Similar project comparisons coupled with understanding the underlying geology and overlying geography and the engineering needed show that it will cost at minimum $10 bil, and more likely closer to $15 bil...several orders of magnitude more than that asinine number they're parroting.

Honestly, how dumb do they think we are? Right after that Big Dig mess up in Boston, too.

I doubt it will go above 6 Billion , this tunnel will be bored and not cut and cover and will be deep avoiding all the messy things. The recent Seattle Link Tunnel Extension only cost 1.6 Billion further Extensions will cost 2-3 Billion for a few miles....so I don't think Amtrak will be any higher then 6 Billion. The Big Dig also had numerous exits and entrances , and was swallow....compared to this tunnel.

[volguus zildrohar]

Originally Posted by hammersklavier

No one wants to embrace the paradigm shift needed for that to happen, though...as I discovered to my surprise.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA That thing will not cost $3 bil...Not even close. Similar project comparisons coupled with understanding the underlying geology and overlying geography and the engineering needed show that it will cost at minimum $10 bil, and more likely closer to $15 bil...several orders of magnitude more than that asinine number they're parroting.

Honestly, how dumb do they think we are? Right after that Big Dig mess up in Boston, too.

The number sounded quite suspect to me also. I kept thinking "They don't think they're building in Philadelphia, MO right?"

The Second Avenue Subway's 2017 debut section is clocking in at, what, ~$4 billion? And that's for two miles? Of currently existing infrastructure?

[volguus zildrohar]

Originally Posted by Nexis4Jersey

I doubt it will go above 6 Billion , this tunnel will be bored and not cut and cover and will be deep avoiding all the messy things. The recent Seattle Link Tunnel Extension only cost 1.6 Billion further Extensions will cost 2-3 Billion for a few miles....so I don't think Amtrak will be any higher then 6 Billion. The Big Dig also had numerous exits and entrances , and was swallow....compared to this tunnel.

The pertinent issue is this:

...coupled with understanding the underlying geology and overlying geography and the engineering needed...

There is so, so, SO much more underneath Philadelphia to be concerned about than there is under Seattle, possibly other than fault lines. Any figure less than $10 billion is ludicrous and less than $8 billion is shysty.