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  #41  
Old Posted Jan 16, 2020, 9:09 PM
Handro Handro is offline
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Originally Posted by Obadno View Post
Why would you spend a lot of time on an institution that died nearly 160 years ago.

The only modern slavery occurs in the middle east, Africa and Asia today. You dont see a lot of issues with that because everyone in the west wants their cheap handbags.

Much better to bitch and moan about things we cannot change for they occurred in the past to and by people who are long dead. What an awesome thing to rail about, past events that can never be altered, going after modern slavery would require an actual plan and people would expect some kind of result. Far to difficult for social media warriors.
Huh?

Do you think protesting inequality (what I assume you're referring to) is about protesting the actual institution of slavery?
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  #42  
Old Posted Jan 16, 2020, 9:21 PM
iheartthed iheartthed is online now
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I would completely disagree, the African slave trade was far more humane than many previous iterations of slavery.
Wow. I think you should really shut up right now.
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  #43  
Old Posted Jan 16, 2020, 9:29 PM
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Originally Posted by JManc View Post
Because the US is the country that is by far the loudest championing freedom when it was one of the last countries in the world and certainly in the Americas to abolish slavery. The Europeans have a nasty legacy of colonialism around the world with all that baggage they have to contend with. The other laggards in slavery are mostly developing nations. Can we really hold Brazil to the same level as the US when they spent most of their post colonial history in poverty and under military dictatorships?
So is it a morality question or a power game?

In my opinion nobody is to be "held accountable" the people responsible and the victims were held accountable in their time (or they got away with it). Nobody today is responsible for what was done before they were born.

I find the entire process of social justice and eternal ongoing accusations of ethnic on ethnic injustice to be an entirely pointless and self serving enterprise. A bunch of people easily goaded into angry actions and victim. mentality by power hungry immoral people.

How can society function if its constantly trying to do the impossible and somehow satisfy past injustice. Its an unworkable worldview.
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  #44  
Old Posted Jan 16, 2020, 9:30 PM
Obadno Obadno is offline
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Wow. I think you should really shut up right now.
No I dont think I need to shut up right now because its true. Sorry if that makes you weirdly butthurt.
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  #45  
Old Posted Jan 16, 2020, 9:30 PM
Obadno Obadno is offline
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Originally Posted by Handro View Post
Huh?

Do you think protesting inequality (what I assume you're referring to) is about protesting the actual institution of slavery?
No I am talking about people wanting some sort of restitution for slavery they never experienced from people who never perpetrated it. I am not talking about "inequality" that is until somebody wants to claim they in 2020 are somehow in a bad situation because of events from lifetimes ago.
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  #46  
Old Posted Jan 16, 2020, 9:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Obadno View Post
For some reason nobody gets angry at Spain and Portugal despite them being the perpetrators of almost all colonial atrocities and most of the slave trade
There's plenty of blame to go around for the atrocities that occurred globally throughout the centuries of European colonial expansion. Spain and Portugal certainly weren't responsible for "almost all" of them, though they obviously do have blood on their hands.

In the Anglosphere, we likely do hear a disproportionate amount about the horrors perpetrated by Britain and the US. The reasons for this should be self-evident. We continue to feel the effects of those horrors in our own societies, and we are generally more familiar with the context in which they occurred. Very few Americans, for example, know much about Portuguese or Brazilian history in general. Why should they know about this part of their histories specifically when they don't really know anything about the societies these crimes occurred in?
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  #47  
Old Posted Jan 16, 2020, 10:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Obadno View Post
I would completely disagree, the African slave trade was far more humane than many previous iterations of slavery.
elaborate
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  #48  
Old Posted Jan 16, 2020, 10:34 PM
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Originally Posted by hallelujah View Post
elaborate
Well besides the countless times elites were legally allowed to murder their slaves, which was not the case among the Atlantic slave trade. But lets think of some other examples.

Slaves that were forced into prostitution or fights to the death, fed to animals for the amusements of crowds, slaves that were castrated, slaves that were worked literally to death in mining operations, slaves that were castrated and forced from birth to become elite soldiers (Janissary are a famous example), forced to be slave in a rowing warship etc.

Im not saying that there was anything good about African slaves but to claim it was somehow worse or more evil than other forms of slavery is simply not true.
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  #49  
Old Posted Jan 16, 2020, 11:07 PM
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You are talking about the US, right?
Troll
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  #50  
Old Posted Jan 16, 2020, 11:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Obadno View Post
slaves that were castrated and forced from birth to become elite soldiers (Janissary are a famous example)
Janissaries weren't castrated, weren't conscripted from birth and were not just elite soldiers but an elite social class. They ended up practically controlling the sultan.

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Originally Posted by Obadno View Post
fed to animals for the amusements of crowds
You're thinking of Christians, not slaves.
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  #51  
Old Posted Jan 16, 2020, 11:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Obadno View Post
So is it a morality question or a power game?

In my opinion nobody is to be "held accountable" the people responsible and the victims were held accountable in their time (or they got away with it). Nobody today is responsible for what was done before they were born.

I find the entire process of social justice and eternal ongoing accusations of ethnic on ethnic injustice to be an entirely pointless and self serving enterprise. A bunch of people easily goaded into angry actions and victim. mentality by power hungry immoral people.

How can society function if its constantly trying to do the impossible and somehow satisfy past injustice. Its an unworkable worldview.
Historically speaking, the US as a champion of democracy and a country with a notorious reputation for racial strife for most of its existence right into modern times is going to get more attention in the matter. Jim Crow, a direct offshoot of slavery, ended less than a decade before I was born. We can argue Apartheid in South Africa but they were a third world country.
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  #52  
Old Posted Jan 16, 2020, 11:37 PM
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Originally Posted by JManc View Post
Historically speaking, the US as a champion of democracy and a country with a notorious reputation for racial strife for most of its existence right into modern times is going to get more attention in the matter. Jim Crow, a direct offshoot of slavery, ended less than a decade before I was born. We can argue Apartheid in South Africa but they were a third world country.
Yeah, in the Americas the legacy of slavery and racism, together with colonization and the genocide of native peoples, has a far more profound influence now in 2020 than any of those other historical examples Obadno struggled to accurately describe.
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  #53  
Old Posted Jan 16, 2020, 11:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Obadno View Post
Well besides the countless times elites were legally allowed to murder their slaves, which was not the case among the Atlantic slave trade. But lets think of some other examples.

Slaves that were forced into prostitution or fights to the death, fed to animals for the amusements of crowds, slaves that were castrated, slaves that were worked literally to death in mining operations, slaves that were castrated and forced from birth to become elite soldiers (Janissary are a famous example), forced to be slave in a rowing warship etc.

Im not saying that there was anything good about African slaves but to claim it was somehow worse or more evil than other forms of slavery is simply not true.
It wasn't their treatment, necessarily, that was more inhumane than most. It was the enslavement itself that was so grossly inhumane, quite literally - they were targeted for enslavement specifically because they were thought to be less than human, due to the racist ideology and pseudoscience that was prevalent at the time. That ideology hasn't completely gone away either...
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  #54  
Old Posted Jan 17, 2020, 12:06 AM
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Canadians and Europeans have no standing to criticize social injustices in the 19th century USA, and up until around wwii.

At a time when the feds were establishing colleges for black citizens in the 1880s , the brits were machine gunning Kenyans and the Belgians were collecting severed Congolese hands

Canada was part of the imperial British state until 1947 ( the firsts year independents Canadian citizenship existed)

After 1945, it’s a different picture. Jim Crow was an abomination
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  #55  
Old Posted Jan 17, 2020, 12:15 AM
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Originally Posted by badrunner View Post
It wasn't their treatment, necessarily, that was more inhumane than most. It was the enslavement itself that was so grossly inhumane, quite literally - they were targeted for enslavement specifically because they were thought to be less than human, due to the racist ideology and pseudoscience that was prevalent at the time. That ideology hasn't completely gone away either...
Arguably what made American slavery worse was its betrayal of the principles of American revolution and the Declaration of Independence. Slavery was vastly more widespread and deadly (mortality rates off the charts) in Latin America but nobody in those countries claimed to be enlightened

But let’s recall that upon independence basically every northern state got rid of slavery.

The southern slaveholders were akin to british citizen slaveholders in Jamaica, the indies, etc. probably treated their slaves better than the brits did, in fact, if for no other reason than the pangs of hypocrisy
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  #56  
Old Posted Jan 17, 2020, 12:52 AM
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Originally Posted by dc_denizen View Post
Canadians and Europeans have no standing to criticize social injustices in the 19th century USA, and up until around wwii.

At a time when the feds were establishing colleges for black citizens in the 1880s , the brits were machine gunning Kenyans and the Belgians were collecting severed Congolese hands

Canada was part of the imperial British state until 1947 ( the firsts year independents Canadian citizenship existed)

After 1945, it’s a different picture. Jim Crow was an abomination
Canada has more or less been its own entity since 1867 with gradual levels of autonomy granted in stages until 1982 when they had full sovereignty.
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  #57  
Old Posted Jan 17, 2020, 1:08 AM
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Nope

Read the foreign affairs section of the below

https://www.sfu.ca/~aheard/324/Independence.html
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  #58  
Old Posted Jan 17, 2020, 1:35 AM
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Slavery was vastly more widespread and deadly (mortality rates off the charts) in Latin America but nobody in those countries claimed to be enlightened
It was more deadly because of the climate.

On the other hand, the strict racial segregation practiced in the Anglo territories never had the same hold in Latin America. There was far more mixing among blacks, whites and indigenous. There were large and in some cases prosperous castes of free blacks and mulattos, and of course the natives were not genocidally wiped out or herded onto reservations, thanks largely to the influence of Jesuits.

As for the enlightened bit, the father of Mexican independence, Miguel Hidalgo, declared the abolition of slavery in New Spain on December 6, 1810. In the former South American colonies, Bolivar and San Martín did the same as they led racially integrated armies in the fight for independence between 1816-21. Slavery was abolished in the French Empire in 1794, and stayed that way in Saint-Domingue thanks to the Haitian Revolution. Haiti was, of course, the first country where former slaves gained full emancipation and equality in practice as well as by law.

To punish them for such insolence, the US, France and Britain enforced a crippling embargo that lasted until Haiti agreed in 1825 to pay 'reparations' of 120 million francs to its former slaveowners and colonizers. That wasn't enough to satisfy the US, though, which at the behest of Southern plantation owners maintained sanctions against Haiti until 1863.
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  #59  
Old Posted Jan 17, 2020, 1:44 AM
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Well the Haitian rebellion was basically genocide of the French white settlers, including women and children

And there was genocide of indigenous peoples across 19th century Latin America, to deny this is ahistorical
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  #60  
Old Posted Jan 17, 2020, 1:56 AM
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Originally Posted by dc_denizen View Post
Canadians and Europeans have no standing to criticize social injustices in the 19th century USA, and up until around wwii.

At a time when the feds were establishing colleges for black citizens in the 1880s , the brits were machine gunning Kenyans and the Belgians were collecting severed Congolese hands

Canada was part of the imperial British state until 1947 ( the firsts year independents Canadian citizenship existed)

After 1945, it’s a different picture. Jim Crow was an abomination
Jim Crow lasted about as long as the period of time between the Revolutionary War and Civil War. The Reconstruction period, the time between the end of slavery and the beginning of Jim Crow, only lasted roughly 15 - 20 years. And although there managed to be some African Americans elected to statewide offices in the South during that period (and even to the U.S. Senate), Reconstruction was obviously no picnic for black Americans at large. This was the same period that the Ku Klux Klan was first founded.
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