Toronto's Ethnic Buffet

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by isaidso

Agree. Despite the government's encouragement of multi-culturalism, immigrants in Canada end up in exactly the same place as immigrants to the US: assimilated. It takes much longer if there are pre-existing large immigrant groups, but even here after a few generations people become part of the 'melting pot'.

One sees far less assimilation in Toronto than in a city like Regina and the process takes much longer because immigrants in Toronto are largely able to continue on much as they had before. In Regina, an immigrant has far more pressure to assimilate if they're to have any social interaction at all.

It's why you see latin Americans in Regina going to a football game, where as in Toronto it's likely they'd stick to soccer because there are tons of immigrants there who also play soccer. Why would they bother adopting Canadian cultural pursuits or learning about Canada if one can simply carry on as one always has?

Summary: immigrants to smaller cities make an effort to assimilate, immigrants to larger cities tend not to.

Also, higher concentrations = more opportunities to find a spouse from within your own ethnic group = more likely kids will learn the language because their parents will speak it at home.

What really kills minority languages (immigrant or otherwise) is when large numbers of members start marrying outside the community.

[isaidso]

^^ Without continuously steady immigration from the motherland, these communities will eventually get watered down though. Look at the Finnish community. They've only managed to maintain their language and culture in Sudbury and Thunder Bay due to both these cities having a very high % of the population of Finnish origin. Immigration from Finland to these cities is next to nothing today, so even in these places, Finnish is in a long steady decline... as is their culture.

Originally Posted by Acajack

Concentration is a huge factor. I would venture to guess that regardless of what the national narrative says about Canada being a multicultural mosaic vs. the Great American Melting Pot, that hispanic immigrants in the US over a couple of generations probably have a much much higher language and cultural retention rate than virtually any immigrant group in Canada.

That's what I was alluding to when I mentioned 'pre-existing large immigrant groups'.

[wg_flamip]

Originally Posted by Acajack

What really kills minority languages (immigrant or otherwise) is when large numbers of members start marrying outside the community.

It's also important to note that there was a conscious decision by the government not to promote language retention in minority ethnic groups. The formula we decided on was multiculturalism + bilingualism - two policies that can, at times, work to different ends. Even outside of immigrant populations, we essentially let long-spoken uniquely Canadian dialects of minority languages die out, though there may have been more time to save them had we adopted a multilingual model in the 70s and 80s. You don't hear too much Gaelic on Cape Breton anymore, nor much Ukrainian on the Prairies.

The fate of indigenous languages is different as the multiculturalism model as adopted was not capable of addressing Aboriginal issues. Indeed, it has often been perceived by some indigenous groups as a way to marginalize indigenous nations as just a few more cultural groups in our great mosaic. It helps to remember that the infamous White Paper was drafted at almost simultaneously with early multicultural policy, and that assimilationist residential schools continued for decades afterwards. A few indigenous languages - Inuktitut, Cree, Ojibwe and perhaps a few others - have enough first language learners that they're safe for now in some areas. Almost all the others are dead or dying, with only the slightest hope that they can be retained through second language education.

Of course, there are some small groups who are more likely to retain their languages due to religious reasons, the same ones mostly as those across the border - some Yiddish-speaking ultra-Orthodox Jewish communities, some German-speaking Anabaptist groups, etc. Even there though there's a pressure to adopt one of the two official languages

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by wg_flamip

The fate of indigenous languages is different as the multiculturalism model as adopted was not capable of addressing Aboriginal issues. Indeed, it has often been perceived by some indigenous groups as a way to marginalize indigenous nations as just a few more cultural groups in our great mosaic.

As you probably know, French-speaking Canadians have the same kind of concerns with respect to Canadian multiculturalism doctrine.

[Allan83]

Originally Posted by wg_flamip

It's also important to note that there was a conscious decision by the government not to promote language retention in minority ethnic groups. The formula we decided on was multiculturalism + bilingualism - two policies that can, at times, work to different ends. Even outside of immigrant populations, we essentially let long-spoken uniquely Canadian dialects of minority languages die out, though there may have been more time to save them had we adopted a multilingual model in the 70s and 80s. You don't hear too much Gaelic on Cape Breton anymore, nor much Ukrainian on the Prairies.

The fate of indigenous languages is different as the multiculturalism model as adopted was not capable of addressing Aboriginal issues. Indeed, it has often been perceived by some indigenous groups as a way to marginalize indigenous nations as just a few more cultural groups in our great mosaic. It helps to remember that the infamous White Paper was drafted at almost simultaneously with early multicultural policy, and that assimilationist residential schools continued for decades afterwards. A few indigenous languages - Inuktitut, Cree, Ojibwe and perhaps a few others - have enough first language learners that they're safe for now in some areas. Almost all the others are dead or dying, with only the slightest hope that they can be retained through second language education.

Of course, there are some small groups who are more likely to retain their languages due to religious reasons, the same ones mostly as those across the border - some Yiddish-speaking ultra-Orthodox Jewish communities, some German-speaking Anabaptist groups, etc. Even there though there's a pressure to adopt one of the two official languages

I’m joining this conversation late and haven’t read much of the thread yet, but I’m not sure this is true, or at least I’m not sure it’s true today or in recent decades.

It's also important to note that there was a conscious decision by the government not to promote language retention in minority ethnic groups. The formula we decided on was multiculturalism + bilingualism...

I don’t think the fact that we have official bilingualism means that the government doesn’t want to promote language retention in other groups. You can only have so many official languages, however.

You don't hear too much Gaelic on Cape Breton anymore, nor much Ukrainian on the Prairies.

It depends on where you go. I know a number of people who were born in Canada but whose first language was Ukrainian. There are many very strong cultural groups that do a good job of keeping the language and culture alive.*

*So much so in fact that recent immigrants from the Ukraine tend to be amazed, and a bit puzzled, because the langue and culture that’s being maintained here is more like the culture that existed in the Ukraine half a century ago, but also somewhat different, because it has evolved on its own. There is starting to be sort of a distinctly Ukrainian Canadian culture, iow.

• Video Link
• Video Link

A few indigenous languages - Inuktitut, Cree, Ojibwe and perhaps a few others - have enough first language learners that they're safe for now in some areas. Almost all the others are dead or dying, with only the slightest hope that they can be retained through second language education.

At the First Nations University in Regina they’re working very hard to preserve these languages. You are quite right of course that through much of our history the government was trying to wipe-out First Nations language and culture, but thankfully that has changed, and now there is a lot of effort being put into trying to save and strengthen them.
http://www.fnuniv.ca/programs/progra...nguistics-cree

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Allan83

I’m joining this conversation late and haven’t read much of the thread yet, but I’m not sure this is true, or at least I’m not sure it’s true today or in recent decades.


I don’t think the fact that we have official bilingualism means that the government doesn’t want to promote language retention in other groups. You can only have so many official languages, however.


It depends on where you go. I know a number of people who were born in Canada but whose first language was Ukrainian. There are many very strong cultural groups that do a good job of keeping the language and culture alive.*

*So much so in fact that recent immigrants from the Ukraine tend to be amazed, and a bit puzzled, because the langue and culture that’s being maintained here is more like the culture that existed in the Ukraine half a century ago, but also somewhat different, because it has evolved on its own. There is starting to be sort of a distinctly Ukrainian Canadian culture, iow.

I don't think we can deny that Ukrainian still has a pulse on the Canadian Prairies, but it's a rapidly fading pulse.

The number of mother tongue and home language speakers of Ukrainian declines at every census, and new arrivals from there are not that numerous - nor are they necessarily that compatible with people who still speak Ukrainian after 100 years of family implantation in Canada.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Allan83

At the First Nations University in Regina they’re working very hard to preserve these languages. You are quite right of course that through much of our history the government was trying to wipe-out First Nations language and culture, but thankfully that has changed, and now there is a lot of effort being put into trying to save and strengthen them.
http://www.fnuniv.ca/programs/progra...nguistics-cree

Tough sledding there too. I think the languages that still have a fighting chance are the handful mentioned by the previous poster.

In most other cases you often have to completely reintroduce a language to people whose ancestors spoke it. It's extremely hard to bring it back with people who have spoken English (and more rarely, French in some cases) for a few generations.

EDIT: Even in Nunavut, which is 85% Inuit and was basically created as a territorial homeland for those people, the school system is still predominantly in English (quite massively so in high school).

[Beedok]

Originally Posted by Allan83

So much so in fact that recent immigrants from the Ukraine tend to be amazed, and a bit puzzled, because the langue and culture that’s being maintained here is more like the culture that existed in the Ukraine half a century ago, but also somewhat different, because it has evolved on its own. There is starting to be sort of a distinctly Ukrainian Canadian culture, iow.

The Thunder Bay Finnish is apparently more or less 1950s Finnish, so when visiting Finland they seem very awkward to many folks.

[Allan83]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I don't think we can deny that Ukrainian still has a pulse on the Canadian Prairies, but it's a rapidly fading pulse.

The number of mother tongue and home language speakers of Ukrainian declines at every census, and new arrivals from there are not that numerous - ...

I think you’re quite wrong there, but I will say that it seems to me that fewer are learning Ukrainian as their first language. Whether they’re losing any language skills overall I’m not in a position to say, but culturally they’re as strong as ever, and in fact many Ukrainian foods have become part of mainstream Western Canadian culture. There’s a well known frozen perogy company in Edmonton called Chemo that produces 3 million frozen perogies per day! And they’re not the only company. Peter’s Perogies is another big name in perogies. Ukrainian sausages and cabbage rolls are also essentially mainstream western Canadian foods at this point.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iwQTj...tu.be&t=22m25s

...nor are they necessarily that compatible with people who still speak Ukrainian after 100 years of family implantation in Canada.

I would say that this is similar to the different path the French language took in Quebec relative to France. Are you suggesting that the Quebecois have lost their culture because it’s now quite different from French culture in France?

[Allan83]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Tough sledding there too. I think the languages that still have a fighting chance are the handful mentioned by the previous poster.

In most other cases you often have to completely reintroduce a language to people whose ancestors spoke it. It's extremely hard to bring it back with people who have spoken English (and more rarely, French in some cases) for a few generations.

EDIT: Even in Nunavut, which is 85% Inuit and was basically created as a territorial homeland for those people, the school system is still predominantly in English (quite massively so in high school).

Maybe this is true in Eastern Canada, but remember that the west was settled a lot later. Most elders still speak their languages fluently, but the younger generations are losing their language, which is why the push is on now to save them. Here are a couple of quotes that illustrate this issue in the west:

Of Canada’s 60 First Nations languages, 30 are found only in B.C. and are among the most complex intellectual structures on Earth.... For many of the languages there are only a few speakers still living.

http://www.sfu.ca/olc/indigenous/ind...ions-languages
http://www.sfu.ca/vpresearch/centres...ge-centre.html

The vast majority of young children under the age of five are unable to speak or understand a First Nations language. The loss of our languages means a weakening of First Nations cultural values, traditions, worldviews, family relationships and relationships to the environment and the land. First Nations are at a critical place in terms of language and cultural retention. The oldest speakers retain the “high” level of the First Nations language.

http://www.sicc.sk.ca/sicc_first_nat..._strategy.html

[Allan83]

Originally Posted by Beedok

The Thunder Bay Finnish is apparently more or less 1950s Finnish, so when visiting Finland they seem very awkward to many folks.

I think this is quite common. And of course the French language in Quebec is now quite different from Parisian French as well.

[miketoronto]

Someone asked about studies. I remember reading one in school, and if I can find it I will post the link.
But it basically looked at immigrant groups in Toronto and how their born in Canada children settled, etc.
The study found children of Chinese and Italian backgrounds tended to segregate into mostly Chinese or Italian communities at far greater numbers, even if they were born in Canada.
These two groups it was found held onto much more identity than other groups.

Another thing I notice is that Canadians tend to travel back to the mother lands more.
Again, just my experience. But more of my family in Canada has gone to Italy than the American side. On the American side most have not gone.

In Toronto people are always traveling back to the mother country so to speak. The low passport rates in the USA paint a different picture.

I was born in Canada, but I still hold onto a number of Italian cultural traditions and food.
That sticks regardless of if you speak the language on a regular basis or at all.

My friend born to in Canada to parents of Chinese background still celebrates Chinese New Year, and even sends her friends including me a card.

Toronto residents of all backgrounds will also go enjoy festivities like Iranian New Year, etc.

No matter what, almost all of us come from backgrounds that are not pure Canadian or American. And I don't think those traditions are just going to fade totally, because there really is not a true American or Canadian, except for the native populations.


Within the last year a new magazine has started in Toronto and Montreal aimed not only at Italian immigrants, but more importantly their kids who were born in Canada. The aim of the magazine is to promote and celebrate Italian culture, and to try to ensure Canadian born kids don't stop Italian traditions in Canada.
It is a great magazine.


Photo: Panorama Magazine


Photo: Panorama Magazine


Photo: Panorama Magazine

[miketoronto]

This is a great article from Panorama on blending cultures in Canada. I think it is great people are teaching their kids their heritage languages, etc.

Read the whole article here
http://www.panoramitalia.com/en/life...icchetti/2308/

Saunders is a Black Canadian with Caribbean roots. Her husband is a second generation Italian-Canadian. Cicchetti's father is from Vallata in the Campania region of Italy and his mother was born in Quito, Ecuador. The couple met through a mutual friend.

“I really believe that language is a gift. The more languages you know, the better equipped you are for life. For this reason, it has always been a priority for me that our sons learn not just French, but their heritage language too. That said, I never wanted my children to be able to communicate in a language that their mother doesn’t understand or speak so I’ve tried really hard to learn along with them.”
The Italian language is not all the couple is passing on to their two sons, Ben and Julian. In their eight years of marriage, they have made several Italian traditions an important part of their family life. Traditions such as Sunday lunch and making homemade tomato sauce. Cicchetti even wants to take his sons tomato picking. He says it’s a rite of passage and “they have to earn Nonno’s sauce.”
- See more at: http://www.panoramitalia.com/en/life....00J7HLgD.dpuf

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Allan83

I think you’re quite wrong there, but I will say that it seems to me that fewer are learning Ukrainian as their first language. Whether they’re losing any language skills overall I’m not in a position to say, but culturally they’re as strong as ever, and in fact many Ukrainian foods have become part of mainstream Western Canadian culture. There’s a well known frozen perogy company in Edmonton called Chemo that produces 3 million frozen perogies per day! And they’re not the only company. Peter’s Perogies is another big name in perogies. Ukrainian sausages and cabbage rolls are also essentially mainstream western Canadian foods at this point.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iwQTj...tu.be&t=22m25s

''Strong as ever'', if one is aware of the history of Ukrainian in its heyday on the Prairies, with theatres, newspapers, schools, etc. is a huge stretch.

Today there are close to 1.5 million people of Ukrainian descent in Canada. Less than 150,000 speak Ukrainian as a mother tongue and less than 70,000 use it as an everyday language. In the absence of the arrival of some recent immigrants from Ukraine the decline would be even more precipitous.

This is not some type of flaw that Ukrainians have - it's simply the usual evolution of immigrant languages and culture.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Allan83

I would say that this is similar to the different path the French language took in Quebec relative to France. Are you suggesting that the Quebecois have lost their culture because it’s now quite different from French culture in France?

They've actually created a new one. Like American, Brazilian, Mexican or Australian culture is different from the culture of the countries that colonized them.

A huge difference also is that basically 100% of the people who are of French origin in Quebec can speak French today, which makes cultural exchanges and transmission much easier.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by miketoronto

This is a great article from Panorama on blending cultures in Canada. I think it is great people are teaching their kids their heritage languages, etc.

Read the whole article here
http://www.panoramitalia.com/en/life...icchetti/2308/

Saunders is a Black Canadian with Caribbean roots. Her husband is a second generation Italian-Canadian. Cicchetti's father is from Vallata in the Campania region of Italy and his mother was born in Quito, Ecuador. The couple met through a mutual friend.

“I really believe that language is a gift. The more languages you know, the better equipped you are for life. For this reason, it has always been a priority for me that our sons learn not just French, but their heritage language too. That said, I never wanted my children to be able to communicate in a language that their mother doesn’t understand or speak so I’ve tried really hard to learn along with them.”
The Italian language is not all the couple is passing on to their two sons, Ben and Julian. In their eight years of marriage, they have made several Italian traditions an important part of their family life. Traditions such as Sunday lunch and making homemade tomato sauce. Cicchetti even wants to take his sons tomato picking. He says it’s a rite of passage and “they have to earn Nonno’s sauce.”
- See more at: http://www.panoramitalia.com/en/life....00J7HLgD.dpuf

It's great that people are doing this (I am a big believer in this) but one or even a few families doing this does not necessarily point to a societal trend.

I think we all know tons of people who have a chance to give their kids a ''free'' language simply by speaking to them in it, and don't. We have one such case in my family where one parent started speaking a non-official language to the kids, but soon gave up. So the kids will be bilingual in English and French (francophone parent, allophone parent, French school, anglo community environment) but the non-official language is basically lost at this point. Which is also too bad because the kids have grandparents and cousins abroad that they can't really communicate with.

[Allan83]

Originally Posted by Acajack

''Strong as ever'', if one is aware of the history of Ukrainian in its heyday on the Prairies, with theatres, newspapers, schools, etc. is a huge stretch.

Today there are close to 1.5 million people of Ukrainian descent in Canada. Less than 150,000 speak Ukrainian as a mother tongue and less than 70,000 use it as an everyday language.

I’m pretty sure I know that history quite a bit better than you do, but nonetheless you’re right that that was a loose usage of that term. In some ways their culture is even stronger, but it has changed and it’s stronger in certain ways and probably weaker in others. These were mostly poor, relatively uneducated, farmers when they came over. There was often cultural friction between the many immigrant groups and the Ukrainians were no exception. They were often made fun of, “dumb Ukrainians”, but eventually they took ownership of that brand of humour, and eventually it died out completely.

• Video Link

Today Ukrainians are business and political leaders, and successful in all walks of life, and most tend to be very proud Ukrainians. There were times in the early to mid part of last century when some tried to hide the fact that they were Ukrainian, but as they have blossomed in Canada their culture has as well. Of course their use of their language is much less than it would have been when they were recent immigrants, but most still speak it I believe, and their pride in their culture has only grown stronger. As a side note, there are at least two different groups of Ukrainians that don’t necessarily get along. At the cultural festivals there are usually always two Ukrainian pavilions. In Regina they are called the Kiev and the Poltava pavilions. My understanding is that Poltava people have closer ties to Russia, while the Kiev people are strongly anti-Russian, but I’m in over my head on this issue so don’t quote me on this. I think there may be some religious differences as well.
http://www.reginamulticulturalcounci...pavilions.html

In the absence of the arrival of some recent immigrants from Ukraine the decline would be even more precipitous.

That’s like telling the Quebecois that they need some more immigrants from France to help them clean up their language.

[Allan83]

Originally Posted by Acajack

They've actually created a new one. Like American, Brazilian, Mexican or Australian culture is different from the culture of the countries that colonized them.

A huge difference also is that basically 100% of the people who are of French origin in Quebec can speak French today, which makes cultural exchanges and transmission much easier.

I think this is what’s happening with Ukrainian Canadian culture as well.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Allan83

That’s like telling the Quebecois that they need some more immigrants from France to help them clean up their language.

Not at all. I am not talking about (perceived) quality of speech. I am talking about shoring up the sheer number of speakers - period.

And as I said, there is basically zero assimilation of French Canadians in Quebec. 100% of them speak French.

Probably about 90% of Ukrainian-Canadians don't speak any Ukrainian. Beyond basic words like yes, no, please and thank you.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Allan83

Of course their use of their language is much less than it would have been when they were recent immigrants, but most still speak it I believe, and their pride in their culture has only grown stronger. .

It's not that hard to find statistics that show quite clearly that this is not the case and that a great deal of assimilation has taken place.

Still, it is true that some elements of culture can survive in the absence of language (cuisine is a good example) but you do lose a lot of stuff if you lose the language as many if not most aspects of culture have a linguistic component to them.