Trolley busses in Edmonton

[240glt]

keep in mind that new trolleys can maneuver around any road construction

I'm confused. Are we talking about trolley busses that still rely on overhead cabling for DC power, but have battery back-ups, or are we talking about diesel-electric busses ?

[CMD UW]

I say update the vehicles and keep the trolleys. The wires don't bother me, it's part of the urban environment. San Francisco uses trolley buses and has overhead wires, and it's a beautiful city.

[RicoLance21]

Originally Posted by 240glt

I'm confused. Are we talking about trolley busses that still rely on overhead cabling for DC power, but have battery back-ups, or are we talking about diesel-electric busses ?

Trolley busses that still rely on overhead cabling for DC power, but have battery back-ups. The battery is rechargeable either through overhead or regenerative braking. Once the battery is full, the battery stops charging and power coming from regenerative braking gets sent back to the overhead as excess energy. Very efficient use of power in my opinion.

Diesel electric trolleybuses are never considered, and may never will be, because of availability and cost.

[IKAN104]

Originally Posted by Hardhatdan

Please be f**king kidding...you want to have what most likely amounts to well over a billion dollars of operational infrastructure removed because it isn't esthetically appealing? Are you joking...seriously?
You want to pay crews millions of dollars to demolish and decommission a billion+ dollars worth of equipment?
How about spend those millions on new trolleys and get the system up and going with 95% uptime...oh wait we already have that, now imagine what new trolleys would do.

This isn't burying power/tel/cable, when you bury those they are still there, this is removing the infrastructure.
Come on guys get real with this "its ugly" argument...

Yes, I'm serious. Dismantle the system. Sell the parts to recoup some of the cost. Whatever cost remains is the cost of beautifying our city.

Don't minimize the importance of esthetics. If you think it's not important take a moment and think about the world you're living in. Why do people dress nice, wear makeup, clean the streets, mow the lawn and buy hardwood floors? Because beauty matters.

Speaking of "getting real", the "it's ugly" argument is a lot more real to me than "save the environment". When you consider the other 100,000 cars and trucks driving around, taking 50 diesel busses off the road isn't going to have any measurable impact on our environment.

[RicoLance21]

Originally Posted by IKAN104

Yes, I'm serious. Dismantle the system. Sell the parts to recoup some of the cost. Whatever cost remains is the cost of beautifying our city.

Don't minimize the importance of esthetics. If you think it's not important take a moment and think about the world you're living in. Why do people dress nice, wear makeup, clean the streets, mow the lawn and buy hardwood floors? Because beauty matters.

Speaking of "getting real", the "it's ugly" argument is a lot more real to me than "save the environment". When you consider the other 100,000 cars and trucks driving around, taking 50 diesel busses off the road isn't going to have any measurable impact on our environment.

Then we should consider a diesel LRT system like what the O-Train has right now for aesthetic reasons. I've already heard of hybrid DE rail vehicles (Light Diesel Electric Multiple Units) that can run on electricity where necessary without the any use of overhead. http://www.fuelcellmarkets.com/artic...13&subsite=388 The LRT overhead is also an eyesore, especially with the SLRT since it runs through residential neighbourhoods and South Campus. It may be noisier, but heck no overhead is needed. Should we consider that too?

I still think trolleybuses should be renewed and expanded to maximize efficiency. By the way, noise, diesel exhaust and degrading of our own health are ugly too. Combining these three together outweighs the visual clutter of overhead in my opinion. Noise, diesel exhaust and health degradation cannot be prevented as a diesel bus passes by. Eyesore from visual clutter can almost be prevented while keeping the overhead by adding trees along the side of the streets, allowing more low-rise to midrise buildings and minimizing the visual impact of trolley poles by having them painted to match the surroundings instead of just 'grey'.

[CanadianCentaur]

I believe the city' council's supposed to vote as to whether it should keep or scrap the trolleybus system next year.

[Hardhatdan]

Originally Posted by IKAN104

Yes, I'm serious. Dismantle the system. Sell the parts to recoup some of the cost. Whatever cost remains is the cost of beautifying our city.

Don't minimize the importance of esthetics. If you think it's not important take a moment and think about the world you're living in. Why do people dress nice, wear makeup, clean the streets, mow the lawn and buy hardwood floors? Because beauty matters.

Speaking of "getting real", the "it's ugly" argument is a lot more real to me than "save the environment". When you consider the other 100,000 cars and trucks driving around, taking 50 diesel busses off the road isn't going to have any measurable impact on our environment.

Beauty matters, but there is also a cost aspect to everything. This isn't just a few dollars, its ALOT of money to dismantle something that works perfectly fine. The problem is with the busses not the overhead catenary system.
Also, the whole "sell the pieces to fund the decommission"...no, that just isn't how it works.

[RicoLance21]

Originally Posted by Hardhatdan

Beauty matters, but there is also a cost aspect to everything. This isn't just a few dollars, its ALOT of money to dismantle something that works perfectly fine. The problem is with the busses not the overhead catenary system.
Also, the whole "sell the pieces to fund the decommission"...no, that just isn't how it works.

This is like tearing a house down that is still in good condition. All it does is to let the value turn to dust.

[Glacierfed]

I haven't been to edmonton in eons but I'd vote to keep the trolleys, there are plenty of other ways to beautify the streetscape without taking down the wires. There are a lot of cities that have great reputations for their beauty that have trolley networks as has already been noted. Replacing a bunch of strip malls would add a lot more to the visual environment than removing wires.

In my neighborhood in Vancouver there is even a petition to bring back the trolley wires that have been currently removed for subway construction (canada line) They're a bunch of crazy people but it just goes to show that trolleys do have appeal, maybe edmonton just needs to update its fleet like Seattle and Vancouver have:

http://www.trolleysoncambie.ca/

[chuber]

I think the city should abandon them. I do think the wires are an eyesore, and for a system that is supposed to be so efficient, the idea that the city needs to have a regular diesel on standby for every trolley on the road plus because of construction there are numerous times in the summer like last year where there isn't a single trolley on the road, they don't seem to be all that efficient.

[Hardhatdan]

Originally Posted by chuber

I think the city should abandon them. I do think the wires are an eyesore, and for a system that is supposed to be so efficient, the idea that the city needs to have a regular diesel on standby for every trolley on the road plus because of construction there are numerous times in the summer like last year where there isn't a single trolley on the road, they don't seem to be all that efficient.

Holy cr*p...once again the system needs new trolleys, there is nothing wrong with the actual overhead infrastructure. I am sure it has about a 99% uptime.

The only way this debate is even happening is because there is agenda present to get rid of the trolleys and by letting the old ones continue to be in service, it makes the system look bad.

ONCE AGAIN, REMOVING THE TROLLEYS DOES NOT MEAN OR GUARANTEE THAT THE OVER HEAD LINES WILL BE REMOVED, SO IF THAT IS YOUR MAIN CONCERN THAN YOU SHOULD RE-EVALUATE YOUR POSITION.

[240glt]

Well it would be silly to leave the infrastructure in place if the system were no longer in use, wouldn't it ?

[Hardhatdan]

Originally Posted by 240glt

Well it would be silly to leave the infrastructure in place if the system were no longer in use, wouldn't it ?

Its more cost effective to leave it up.
There is years worth of work there to dismantle and decommission that system...millions on millions of dollars.
In a province where we cry for infrastructure money, can you see millions being spent to tear out the existing?

[240glt]

^Well in certain circumstances yes. See the pics below. As noted previously, the current infrastructure poses problems in areas being revitalized. If the trolley lines can be effectively incorporated into a renewal plan, I'm all for it. However, it's difficult to implement a beautification and revitalization plan with the current system in place:

(Pardon the big crack in my winshield!)

[Hardhatdan]

Listen I understand that there are alot of people who don't like the aesthetics of it. The reality of the situation is that the perceived lack of aesthetic appeal does not warrant the complete removal of what is very reliable and operable existing infrastructure.
I still feel that having a trolley line run through an area is actually more likely to allow redevelopment as it can do away with noisy diesel buses, which would lend itself to a more pedestrian experience on the street.
Me personally, I feel having a bus roar by is far more disruptive that having some wires hang above an intersection.

[SHOFEAR]

Yeah...those ugly wires....totally destroy's any chance of having a beautiful and vibrant neighbourhood......

240glt Want to make your area nicer? Campaign the city to plant some trees and change zoning to enforce better street interaction.

As far as keep them or let them go. I don't care. I don't see how somebody could be such a fan with buses on with wires on thim, but I have a hard time justifying removing millions of dollars of infrastructure...(rip up the asphalt underthem and put in some tracks and my opinion changes drastically)

But blaming them for making an area undesireable it utter BS.

[240glt]

^ You're missing the point completely, SHO

There's a development and revitalization meeting tonight for the area, and on the agenda will be getting rid of the sports theme on the ave, including removing the baseball bat, rezoning the ave and adjoining blocks, implementation of the economic revitalization plan, including allowances for studio over retail and low intensity business revelopment, making 118 ave two lanes with wider sidewalks, and yes, what to do about light standards, signage, and trolley lines.

[SHOFEAR]

How?

[240glt]

It's not about the trolley lines in general being the single detrimental factor that causes ugliness. Down Jasper the trolley lines look fine because they're properly supported off fixed poles, and the profile of the buildings on either side make them less noticeable. It's about specific neighborhoods where upgrades are taking place and the issues surrounding maintaining the old infrastructure, and yes, making it look better. The second picture you posted looks like shit too, the street in the first picture has the advantage of being wide & open, like Whyte is. Really old streets are far narrower making the overhead clutter all that much more undesireable. I still don't have a concrete opinion on this matter, but buying some brand new trollies to replace the old ones sounds like a good idea. Perhaps the routes can be altered to alleviate some of the messes over the intersections where there are more guy wires and support poles.

Anyways I'm off to this meeting. Maybe some better options will be presented

[RicoLance21]

Originally Posted by 240glt

It's not about the trolley lines in general being the single detrimental factor that causes ugliness. Down Jasper the trolley lines look fine because they're properly supported off fixed poles, and the profile of the buildings on either side make them less noticeable. It's about specific neighborhoods where upgrades are taking place and the issues surrounding maintaining the old infrastructure, and yes, making it look better. The second picture you posted looks like shit too, the street in the first picture has the advantage of being wide & open, like Whyte is. Really old streets are far narrower making the overhead clutter all that much more undesireable. I still don't have a concrete opinion on this matter, but buying some brand new trollies to replace the old ones sounds like a good idea. Perhaps the routes can be altered to alleviate some of the messes over the intersections where there are more guy wires and support poles.

Anyways I'm off to this meeting. Maybe some better options will be presented

What they should do is have the wire supports tied to the buildings wherever it's high enough. That will eliminate some of the ugly trolley poles and will make it a little cleaner. If not, use supports like the ones on Jasper Ave. Those supports do seem more desirable to the eyes, as long as they are painted to blend in with the surroundings. The ones we have on 118 Ave right now are so out of place, it's not even funny. Won't you agree?