Canada's Panamerica Identity

[esquire]

Originally Posted by lio45

Again, sure, having been born and raised in either of the two, when you cross from "North American Anglo culture with guns" to "North American Anglo culture without guns" or vice versa it's one of the things that will strike you, but in the grand scheme of things it's not that striking of a difference.

The fact that you guys seem to think that a little "no guns in this store" sticker on a door is actually a big cultural difference marker tells me that the two cultures being compared are in fact quite similar if that's the kind of thing you call a major cultural difference.

I wasn't implying that it's a big cultural difference. This came from a branch of the discussion where Acajack and rousseau began to compare the hunting and fishing culture that exists in the US vs. the one in Canada.

[lio45]

Originally Posted by esquire

It's tough to describe in general terms... the things that people associate with Canadians are there in Lloydminster as they are in Stratford. Canadian politeness, tolerance, thinking a bit more in terms of the collective whole as opposed to the more individualist outlook in the US, right down to details such as social programs and medicare.

Politeness, tolerance? Again IMO way more of a rural/urban difference marker.

In large cities you could be dying on the sidewalk and people will step over you on their way. Including in Montreal. On the other hand, in rural areas, it's generally completely different. I have observed that not only in rural Quebec but also in rural New England as well as other places during my travels (often because of mechanical problems in the middle of nowhere).

I can guarantee you that you'd find no shortage of politeness and tolerance and a sense of community and volunteerism in a typical little New England village. People in rural AB really do think in terms of the collective whole that much? Maybe you're right, but that would be somewhat of a surprise.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

Sounds like an interesting read, even if the basic thesis seems obvious (although on the surface that formula doesn't factor in Catholicism and French language, which seem pretty fundamental).

Edit: I guess that in fact the "F" of the formula pretty well encompasses Catholicism and language.

I can't remember what the R and C are for... R might be Rome and C might be Canada. I am too lazy to look it up.

[lio45]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

Sounds like an interesting read, even if the basic thesis seems obvious (although on the surface that formula doesn't factor in Catholicism and French language, which seem pretty fundamental).

Edit: I guess that in fact the "F" of the formula pretty well encompasses Catholicism and language.

"F" certainly encompasses language, though a few centuries of adaptation to the New World contributed to help turn Québécois into French-speaking Americans from an European POV.

Catholicism IMO isn't really a major component nowadays. Historically, sure, but today's Quebec is very very secular.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by lio45

Politeness, tolerance? Again IMO way more of a rural/urban difference marker.

In large cities you could be dying on the sidewalk and people will step over you on their way. Including Montreal. On the other hand, in rural areas, it's generally completely different. I have observed that not only in rural Quebec but also in rural New England as well as other places during my travels (often because of mechanical problems in the middle of nowhere).

I can guarantee you that you'd find no shortage of politeness and tolerance and a sense of community and volunteerism in a typical little New England village. People in rural AB really do think in terms of the collective whole that much? Maybe you're right, but that would be somewhat of a surprise.

On average I find Americans to be every bit as polite as Canadians. For your average person on the street it's about the same, and for service staff the Americans are usually much more polite and "serviable" in fact.

[Stryker]

Originally Posted by isaidso

I suspect it will be a very slow creep that occurs over many decades. Even in the US, the change is happening over generations not years. The Spanish speaking population in Canada is actually increasing faster than it is in the United States, but starting off a very small base.

These changes aren't noticeable to you and I, but gauging the prevalence of Spanish in 2000 and 2050 will show large differences. It's inevitable. Spanish is the dominant language on the American continent. English is 2nd, Portuguese 3rd, and French 4th if not lower.

In toronto hispanics blend in like crazy.

You have no idea how many times I've sat on the bus trying to figure out someones ethinicity Filpina, Turk, Arab, Portuguese, Russia, insert virtually any identity and they turn out to be hispanic.

Also it's important to understand were getting rich Latin american's than you get in the states, so it's gonna make them a far less visible minority group.

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by lio45

"F" certainly encompasses language, though a few centuries of adaptation to the New World contributed to help turn Québécois into French-speaking Americans from an European POV.

Catholicism IMO isn't really a major component nowadays. Historically, sure, but today's Quebec is very very secular.

It would be food for an entirely different thread, but I would suggest that, without Catholicism in its past (especially as manifested in "old Quebec"), the last sixty years of secularism and searching for a unifying societal model would not have been possible.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by lio45

Politeness, tolerance? Again IMO way more of a rural/urban difference marker.

In large cities you could be dying on the sidewalk and people will step over you on their way. Including in Montreal. On the other hand, in rural areas, it's generally completely different. I have observed that not only in rural Quebec but also in rural New England as well as other places during my travels (often because of mechanical problems in the middle of nowhere).

I can guarantee you that you'd find no shortage of politeness and tolerance and a sense of community and volunteerism in a typical little New England village. People in rural AB really do think in terms of the collective whole that much? Maybe you're right, but that would be somewhat of a surprise.

You might disagree with me, but I'm just going by what I've seen many times first hand in small Canadian and US cities. There are many shared traits and cultural characteristics, but by and large the Canadian communities (even if separated by thousands of kilometres) will have more in common than with a similar-sized US community.

You should visit Alberta and you can see for yourself.

[lio45]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

It would be food for an entirely different thread, but I would suggest that, without Catholicism in its past (especially as manifested in "old Quebec"), the last sixty years of secularism and searching for a unifying societal model would not have been possible.

Yes, of course, the powerful swing of the pendulum to the other end starting in ~1960 is definitely something that was shaped by (a reaction to) Catholicism's long-lasting grip on society.

On the other hand, that swing wouldn't have needed to be that powerful had the starting point not been that extreme, and maybe the end result would've been quite similar. Look at some western/northern European countries for example.

[lio45]

Originally Posted by esquire

You might disagree with me, but I'm just going by what I've seen many times first hand in small Canadian and US cities.

Same thing here

You should visit Alberta and you can see for yourself.

That would be an interesting experiment, I'll keep this thread in mind if I do so.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by lio45

"F" certainly encompasses language, though a few centuries of adaptation to the New World contributed to help turn Québécois into French-speaking Americans from an European POV.

.

Though not a country, modern Quebec does provide some interesting insights into what a place like the U.S. or any other new world country might have been had it been ''French'' instead of "English''. It's the only new world society that's made up primarily of descendants of French people.

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Though not a country, modern Quebec does provide some interesting insights into what a place like the U.S. or any other new world country might have been had it been ''French'' instead of "English''. It's the only new world society that's made up primarily of descendants of French people.

I imagine a USA born of French colonial roots as a much smaller country (the south-west and perhaps Texas would be part of Mexico). On the other hand, it would include at least some of present-day Canada, so it might be a wash, georgraphically. Perhaps a bit like Brazil in terms of impact on the world stage (although who knows, the anglosphere without the USA might not be dominant as it is today). Certainly the cars would be smaller and funkier and the fast food might be better!

[lio45]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

Certainly the cars would be smaller and funkier and the fast food might be better!

Not sure about that one, I think big, comfortable cars are a trait that's way more New Worldly (large spaces, freeways) than it is a British trait.

Cars are small in both Britain and France.



The typical food tastes on the other hand are going to be influenced by whoever was the main colonial power, that's true.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

I imagine a USA born of French colonial roots as a much smaller country (the south-west and perhaps Texas would be part of Mexico). On the other hand, it would include at least some of present-day Canada, so it might be a wash, georgraphically. Perhaps a bit like Brazil in terms of impact on the world stage (although who knows, the anglosphere without the USA might not be dominant as it is today). Certainly the cars would be smaller and funkier and the fast food might be better!

My kids have friends who go to a relatively new public school called École de l'Amérique française, here in Gatineau.

There is also a Musée de l'Amérique française in Quebec City.

[wg_flamip]

Originally Posted by Acajack

It's fairly complex to deconstruct. It's that and it isn't that.

Obviously being prosperous northern North Americans people in Quebec have more in common with other Canadians and Americans.

But there is also a latent sense of "being in this together vs. the gringos" with the Latin Americans. You know, that we're challenging the anglo dominance of the new world each in our own way.

I suspect that the enthusiasm from learning Spanish in Quebec is at least partially related to this sentiment, to counter the dominant image of America/l'Amérique as overwhelmingly anglo (with maybe a tiny francophone rump - when people actually think about it at all).

A number of Québécois singers have been singing in Spanish (or at least including segments of songs in Spanish) for quite some time, long before it became fashionable to do so.

I suppose that this is related to the same sentiment. That openness to the world doesn't have to stop with English, and should go beyond it. Being in the Americas, the next logical stop on the journey is Spanish.

I think part of the allure of the Spanish language, for both Anglophones and Francophones, is that it is relatively easy to tackle as a second language. Spanish spelling is pretty straightforward, all three languages share a good chunk of vocabulary, and all three share subject-object-verb sentence structure. For a Francophone, and for anyone who's ever studied French really, Spanish gender, verb tense and grammar more generally ought to seem somewhat familiar (while there's a lot to adjust to, there really aren't any major new concepts to be absorbed).

To get back to a point I believe I read somewhere up-thread, I don't think Quebec's social democratic tradition can really be attributed to its French language or roots. Across the Western world, almost every "national liberation" movement of the last half-century has taken on the language and ideology of the left (with some exceptions, of course). The economic conditions for Francophones in Quebec pre-Quiet Revolution presumably have had a greater impact on the evolution of dominant ideology than any specific ancestral ties.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by wg_flamip

To get back to a point I believe I read somewhere up-thread, I don't think Quebec's social democratic tradition can really be attributed to its French language or roots. Across the Western world, almost every "national liberation" movement of the last half-century has taken on the language and ideology of the left (with some exceptions, of course). The economic conditions for Francophones in Quebec pre-Quiet Revolution presumably have had a greater impact on the evolution of dominant ideology than any specific ancestral ties.

If it's me you are thinking of, I think what I wrote might be misleading and I actually agree with you. Quebec isn't more collectivist and less individualist because it has French origins, so much as it is this way because it's a North American outlier. The classic North American individualism did not work for French Canadians (at least, it came up short when it comes to meeting their ambitions of being prosperous while still remaining themselves), hence the "we're all in this together" mentality in order to make things happen for the collective. It's less the case today though as Quebec is more prosperous and sure of itself.

Another symptom of this is how much sympathy revolutionary movements and also the teologia de la liberacion in Latin America got in Quebec. Of course the Catholic church's leadership here did not support any of this overtly, but a good number of footloose Catholic church people (and other non-church people too) from Quebec went down there at the time to work with the movers and shakers of the movement. I clearly remember this being a "thing".

[esquire]

Originally Posted by lio45

Not sure about that one, I think big, comfortable cars are a trait that's way more New Worldly (large spaces, freeways) than it is a British trait.

Cars are small in both Britain and France.

Funny you should mention that. Quebec's appetite for small cars is well known, to the point that Canada gets compacts and subcompacts unavailable in the US market because they are known to sell quite well in Quebec.

I'm sure cars in Quebec are on average much larger than in France/UK, but by North American standards, Quebec is the small car champ.

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by lio45

Not sure about that one, I think big, comfortable cars are a trait that's way more New Worldly (large spaces, freeways) than it is a British trait.

Cars are small in both Britain and France.



The typical food tastes on the other hand are going to be influenced by whoever was the main colonial power, that's true.

A lot of countries do small cars, but I don't think anybody makes funkier cars than the French (que les dieux soient remerciés!).

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by esquire

Funny you should mention that. Quebec's appetite for small cars is well known, to the point that Canada gets compacts and subcompacts unavailable in the US market because they are known to sell quite well in Quebec.

I'm sure cars in Quebec are on average much larger than in France/UK, but by North American standards, Quebec is the small car champ.

This can't in any way be linked to the fact that Quebec might be sort of an in-between society between North America and Europe, which we all know is a Eurofetishist myth.

It's gotta be something else!

But what?

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by Acajack

This can't in any way be linked to the fact that Quebec might be sort of an in-between society between North America and Europe, which we all know is a Eurofetishist myth.

It's gotta be something else!

But what?

Disposible income, Acajack. Same reason Canadians skew to Civics and Corollas while Americans tend to Accords and Camrys. Plus, I'm sure, some in Quebec who figure something tiny will make them more "Euro".

Lately, I've been thinking about getting a Fiat 500 so I can make hand gestures and say "Ciao" to folks while I drive to my favourite espresso shop!