Cities that have more in common than not

[Steely Dan]

Originally Posted by Razor

Yes, metaphorically The Great Lakes Flotilla would be impressive as a battle ship group. Each metro representing a class of ship.

going by traditional fleet classifications of surface combatants:

battleship: chicago
battle-cruiser: detroit
cruiser: cleveland, milwaukee
destroyer: buffalo, rochester
frigate: toledo
corvette: duluth, green bay, erie, etc.

[iheartthed]

Originally Posted by wwmiv

No, they’re all places that were meaningless settlements prior to being seats of government.

The foundation of D.C.'s economy is the federal government, which is not the case for those other cities (and was probably never the case for those cities). The U.K. government could move out of London tomorrow and it would barely be noticed. Same for Paris and the French government. And obviously, that exact thing did happen to Istanbul/Constantinople. If the seat of government moved out of Washington tomorrow it would be a complete disaster for the D.C. economy, and it is not at all clear what would replace it.

[pj3000]

Originally Posted by Steely Dan

going by traditional fleet classifications:

battleship: chicago
battle-cruiser: detroit
cruiser: cleveland
destroyer: milwaukee, buffalo, rochester
frgiate: toledo
corvette: duluth, green bay, erie

^ obscure info only found on SSP!

[Wigs]

Originally Posted by Steely Dan

going by traditional fleet classifications:

battleship: chicago
battle-cruiser: detroit
cruiser: cleveland
destroyer: milwaukee, buffalo, rochester
frgiate: toledo
corvette: duluth, green bay, erie

I'd put Milwaukee ahead of Buffalo and Rochester. The MSA has ~500,000 more people.
Other than that, interesting comparison!

[Steely Dan]

Originally Posted by Wigs

I'd put Milwaukee ahead of Buffalo and Rochester. The MSA has ~500,000 more people.
Other than that, interesting comparison!

it's fine with me I you wanna bump Milwaukee up to a destroyer.

The cleveland-milwaukee-buffalo-rochester lines get a little blurry, but everything else is pretty straightforward, unless you want to start adding places that are near the lakes, but don't have a port directly on the lakes, like grand rapids.

[The North One]

Originally Posted by Centropolis

i don’t understand the chicago/nyc pairing...different energy, different tier. chicago is a bestriding great lakes giant while nyc is the capital of the anglo-atlantic world.

Fundamentally, they're the same. Culturally not very different unless you start getting really nuanced. Built form is more or less the same, only urbanists with a microscope know the difference. One city is just twice the size.

If you could plop an outsider between the two randomly I doubt they'd know better. I think "Great Lakes Giant" and "Atlantic capital" are pretty arbitrary titles.

[Centropolis]

Originally Posted by Steely Dan

going by traditional fleet classifications of surface combatants:

battleship: chicago
battle-cruiser: detroit
cruiser: cleveland, milwaukee
destroyer: buffalo, rochester
frigate: toledo
corvette: duluth, green bay, erie, etc.

behold the barbette ship ironclad Redoutable for st. louis.


wikipedia.com

gonna swim up the great lakes pee-hole, ch’out.

[Centropolis]

Originally Posted by Steely Dan

it's fine with me I you wanna bump Milwaukee up to a destroyer.

The cleveland-milwaukee-buffalo-rochester lines get a little blurry, but everything else is pretty straightforward, unless you want to start adding places that are near the lakes, but don't have a port directly on the lakes, like grand rapids.

st. louis is a legit historical (if out outmoded) midwestern seaport with no locks to the gulf so i think it gets to play but i guess i shot my shot with the ironclad battery.

[Centropolis]

heres some very small us navy vessels at st. louis...maybe someone knows what they are lol.


pinterest.com

[Centropolis]

theres still large barges that make contact with salt water but to my knowledge the last trans-ocean freighter to dock at the port of st louis was in 1948. it unloaded 900 tons of scrap steel from cuba and took on american manufactured goods.

https://www.newspapers.com/clip/3120...ins-freighter/

[Centropolis]

actually a pretty decent sized freighter (i mean for the era) but they were really too big even by then, too much risk unless you were a cuban captain willing to make some risky last runs up the mississippi river i guess. kind of a cool movie idea.

[SIGSEGV]

Cairo, Gary, East St. Louis: Submarine

[Razor]

Originally Posted by Steely Dan

going by traditional fleet classifications of surface combatants:

battleship: chicago
battle-cruiser: detroit
cruiser: cleveland, milwaukee
destroyer: buffalo, rochester
frigate: toledo
corvette: duluth, green bay, erie, etc.

Well this is a NATO operation, and both Toronto and Hamilton should be factored in as they are both great lakes cities. Heck even Windsor.

So maybe add another Battle Cruiser representing Toronto, a frigate for Hamilton,a corvette for Windsor, and a tugboat for Kingston..Sounds about right for the Canadian Navy anyways!.Not sure if Montreal factors in, or if they would part of the Eastern Seaboard Navy..All said, it makes a nice armada..St Louis, you would be part of another Navy..The one with the two Apolis's , KC,and whatever else makes sense.

[SIGSEGV]

Naval Station Great Lakes is hilariously lacking in ... a navy

https://www.google.com/maps/@42.3127.../data=!3m1!1e3

[Steely Dan]

^ yeah, it's always been a bit of a joke that the US Navy's only basic training facility, that tens of thousands of new recruits pass through every year, is located in the heart of the continent, over 700 miles from the ocean and all of the bases that actually harbor the US fleet.

[SIGSEGV]

Originally Posted by Steely Dan

^ yeah, it's always been a bit of a joke that the US Navy's only basic training facility, that tens of thousands of new recruits pass through every year, is located in the heart of the continent, over 700 miles from the ocean and all of the bases that actually harbor the US fleet.

yeah, I mean obviously not much strategic value to keeping ships on Lake Michigan, but you'd think they'd have SOME smaller older ships for training...

[Steely Dan]

^ yeah, i don't know why that is. They must not do actual ship training there, it's probably all just a bunch of push-ups and book learning.

And even though the rush-bagot treaty of 1817 between the US and Britain (Canada) demilitarized the great lakes, and severely restricted the stationing and operation of military vessels on the lakes, it was later modified to make an exception for ships exclusively used for training purposes. So there's nothing legally preventing it.

[SIGSEGV]

Hmm I see they have the "National Museum of the American Sailor." Maybe if I go visit there once it opens back up I'll learn why they don't have any ships...

[homebucket]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Recrui...akes,_Illinois

New recruit training appears to be pretty basic, so it doesn't appear ships are necessary. They probably have ship like areas built inside classrooms to practice drills like firefighting, damage control, escaping various compartments, etc. The rest is physical training, weapons training, and other generic military skills. After that I'm guessing they get dispersed to wherever for more specialized naval training.

[pj3000]

Originally Posted by Steely Dan

And even though the rush-bagot treaty of 1817 between the US and Britain (Canada) demilitarized the great lakes, and severely restricted the stationing and operation of military vessels on the lakes, it was later modified to make an exception for ships exclusively used for training purposes. So there's nothing legally preventing it.

Seeing that we're talking about Great Lakes ship history:

The USS Michigan, later re-christened the USS Wolverine, was built in sections in Pittsburgh, Erie, and Cleveland, with assembly in Erie and launch there in 1843. She was the Navy's (and world's) first iron-hulled warship, and was regarded as the most beautiful naval ship on the Lakes.

Built to protect the Lakes from the British (after they built two steamers on the Lakes in the 1830s), the Confederacy, and to patrol pirating and smuggling, the Wolverine was the US Navy's only Great Lakes gunboat.

It was involved in incidents with lumber pirates and the Beaver-Mackinac War in the 1850s (the latter was an early "Michigan militia"-style uprising caused by some goofy Mormon wannabe "king") and called to put down early labor riots and Fenian Brotherhood uprisings in Erie, Buffalo, and NYC in the 1860s and 70s.

The Wolverine's homeports were Erie and Detroit. During most of the patrol season (when the Lakes were free of ice), the Wolverine sailed throughout the Great Lakes, port to port, from March to December, wintering in Erie. The naval base was known to have parties throughout the rough Erie winter, inviting ladies. Crewmen married so many local girls that Erie became known at the time as the "Mother-in-Law of the Navy".

Decommissioned in 1912, the Wolverine's last hurrah was parading the USS Niagara around the Great Lakes in 1913 in commemoration of the 100th anniversary of the Battle of Lake Erie. She was granted to the Pennsylvania Naval Militia and served as a training ship for the US Naval Reserve. She was then uncerimoniously grounded in Erie's Misery Bay, where she sat and was allowed to rot away by the federal govt. Scrapped in 1949.

Some photos of the Wolverine...






Erie (1860s)



Erie (1880s)


Not sure where this is (Detroit 1890s?)


Detroit (early 1900s)


Erie (1910)




Towing the USS Niagara in Erie Harbor (1913)


Erie (1917)


Grounded in Misery Bay next to Perry Monument on Presque Isle, Erie (1920s)


1930s


1940s


Erie Bayfront - "Wolverine Park" (1960s)


Erie Maritime Museum (present day)