HomeDiagramsDatabaseMapsForum About
     

Go Back   SkyscraperPage Forum > Discussion Forums > City Discussions


Reply

 
Thread Tools Display Modes
     
     
  #121  
Old Posted Jan 19, 2014, 12:31 AM
mrnyc mrnyc is offline
cle/west village/shaolin
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 11,749
the power shift is pretty clear inside ohio ---> cincinnati>cleveland>columbus.

good thing is the state has such a mix that really doesnt matter, at least as much as many other states. otoh thats also a problem. for good reason ohio is often said to be the most representative state of the usa at large.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #122  
Old Posted Jan 19, 2014, 12:40 AM
AviationGuy AviationGuy is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Cypress, TX
Posts: 5,361
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crawford View Post
Houston and Dallas have barely changed. They've been roughly similar size for quite some time.
Not the cities proper, though.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #123  
Old Posted Jan 19, 2014, 12:43 AM
New Brisavoine New Brisavoine is online now
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 2,137
Quote:
Originally Posted by Allan83 View Post
With the election of the PQ for the first time in 1976 the threat of separation became very real, and that’s when the major exodus started. The PQ was formed for the purpose of pushing for Quebec separation, and when the people of Quebec elected them it seemed very likely they would also vote for separation. When that didn’t happen in 1980 the flow of people out of the province slowed down a bit.
Well according to the statistical office of Québec, significant departures from Québec to the rest of Canada started in 1966, 10 years before the PQ came to power. The outflows didn't rise after the PQ came to power in 1976. It's the inflows from the rest of Canada into Québec which decreased significantly when the PQ came to power. As a result, in the 5 years from 1976 to 1980, the cumulative net migration between Québec and the rest of Canada was -153,674 (i.e. during those 5 years, there were 153,674 more people who left Québec to the rest of Canada than people from the rest of Canada who moved to Québec).

As you can see, the figure wasn't much for a province which had 6.4 million inhabitants at the time. It's a negative net migration of only -0.5% per year. Not negligible, but certainly not an "exodus", especially considering that most of it was due to a decrease in people moving to Québec from the rest of Canada, and not an increase in the people leaving Québec and relocating to the rest of Canada (from 1966 to 1975 on average 58,500 people moved from Québec to the rest of Canada every year, and from 1976 to 1980 on average 56,000 people moved from Québec to the rest of Canada every year; hard to believe, and yet it's the stats).

So the only effect of the PQ victory in 1976 seem to have been to deter people from the rest of Canada to move to Québec. But let's not forget that there is also international migration. After the PQ victory in 1976, the inflow of international immigrants into Québec remained unchanged. On the other hand, the outflows decreased in 1971 and remained low even after the PQ victory in 1976 (the reason for that I believe is because the great migration of French Canadians to New England stopped in the late 1960s). So although Québec lost 153,674 people to the rest of Canada from 1976 to 1980, it gained 83,646 people from abroad during the same time period.

The grand total, which is the net migration (interprovincial + international) of Québec from 1976 to 1980, is thus -70,028, i.e. on average -0.22% per year.

So no exodus, and figures of a magnitude way too small to explain the shift between Montréal and Toronto, which had its own momentum going back way before the PQ even started to exist. But simplistic explanations are always more simple for the average public I suppose.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Allan83 View Post
As far as the Charter of Values goes, it’s been very controversial and many people have said publically that if it passes they’ll leave Quebec. It hasn’t passed yet, (and even if it does it could also lead to the defeat of the PQ government and the subsequent repeal of the law), but a lot of those people could easily be serious about leaving Quebec if it passes. This has happened before, after all, except this time they’d probably be moving to the west instead of to Toronto.
I'm ready to bet 1,000 dollars the French-speaking Maghrebans won't move from Montréal or Québec City to Calgary or Saskatoon. It's all talk. Having to learn English and adapt to a new environment would be way more demanding for them than having to live with a secular state in Québec. They cried a lot in France too before the laws banning veils in public administrations (well, I should rather say "a small but very vocal minority" cried a lot), and then when the laws were passed it was all soon forgotten, and women unveil when they have to go to a public administration, and the world hasn't stopped or the banlieues collapsed. Same will happen in Québec I predict. In fact even 'multiculti' Britain is studying French secular laws now, after recent scandals and controversies in various British schools. That says a lot!

PS: The only thing that I find disputable with this Charter of Values thing is the fact they leave the crucify in the National Assembly of Québec. For the sake of equality and impartiality, and also to show the immigrants that the law is for everybody and not just for immigrants, I think they should remove the crucify, even it means changing a tradition. After all the Révolution Tranquille changed many other traditions in Québec.
__________________
New Axa – New Brisavoine
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #124  
Old Posted Jan 19, 2014, 12:53 AM
montréaliste montréaliste is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Chambly, Quebec
Posts: 2,000
Quote:
Originally Posted by New Brisavoine View Post
I heard from Montrealers that there is indeed more France's French accent heard in Montréal these days. Not sure how they react to it. It would be interesting to ask them what they think.
The french presence in Montreal is very strong indeed. Meeting or transacting with french nationals is a daily occurence in the city. What I find interesting with french immigration to Quebec is that french immigrants are in every type of occupation possible. The economic and cultural input is very diverse. There isnt the kind of search for immigrant investors on the part of the government that would make the landscape more blah than leaving it to personal initiatives and sectorial employment needs. University students who decide to stay also enrich the environment.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #125  
Old Posted Jan 19, 2014, 1:12 AM
New Brisavoine New Brisavoine is online now
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 2,137
^^How do Francophone Montréalais react to France's French accent being more and more heard in daily life? Is it perceived as charming? annoying? tedious? funny? too visible? fresh and new? growing too much in terms of presence? something else? I wonder.
__________________
New Axa – New Brisavoine
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #126  
Old Posted Jan 19, 2014, 1:24 AM
Yuri's Avatar
Yuri Yuri is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 4,524
A big one in Southern US:

Atlanta

The Atlanta Expanse by AJ Brustein, on Flickr
vs

Birmingham

downtown bhm by digitizedchaos, on Flickr


Atlanta
1900 ------ 138,475
1910 ------ 205,614
1920 ------ 276,657
1930 ------ 388,865
1940 ------ 479,828
1950 ------ 671,797
1960 ---- 1,017,188
1970 ---- 1,390,164
1980 ---- 2,029,710
1990 ---- 2,833,511
2000 ---- 4,112,198
2010 ---- 5,618,431
2012 ---- 6,092,295

Birmingham
1900 ------ 140,420
1910 ------ 226,476
1920 ------ 310,054
1930 ------ 431,493
1940 ------ 459,930
1950 ------ 558,928
1960 ------ 634,864
1970 ------ 739,274
1980 ------ 847,487
1990 ------ 907,810
2000 ------ 921,106
2010 ---- 1,208,453
2012 ---- 1,309,818

Metro area definitions changed several times along the years by the US Census Bureau. Before 1950, Birmingham = Jefferson County; Atlanta: Fulton and DeKalb counties
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #127  
Old Posted Jan 19, 2014, 1:56 AM
Crawford Crawford is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Brooklyn, NYC/Polanco, DF
Posts: 30,780
Quote:
Originally Posted by AviationGuy View Post
Not the cities proper, though.
Ok, but that's not really relevant. One city is vastly larger in area.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #128  
Old Posted Jan 19, 2014, 2:20 AM
Yuri's Avatar
Yuri Yuri is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 4,524
We were discussing São Paulo's ascendance on Brazilian affaires in the first page, some example of it. Just released:

Busiest air routes (passengers) - 2012

São Paulo (Congonhas) - Rio de Janeiro (Santos Dumont) ----- 3,855,601

São Paulo (Guarulhos) - Salvador ----- 2,273,350

São Paulo (Congonhas) - Brasília ----- 1,979,967

São Paulo (Guarulhos) - Recife ----- 1,824,686

São Paulo (Guarulhos) - Porto Alegre ----- 1,755,426

São Paulo (Congonhas) - Porto Alegre ----- 1,469,184

São Paulo (Congonhas) - Belo Horizonte (Confins) ----- 1,466,765

São Paulo (Guarulhos) - Fortaleza ----- 1,453,733


Rio de Janeiro (Galeão) - Salvador ----- 1,335,677

São Paulo (Congonhas) - Curitiba ----- 1,299,319

Rio de Janeiro (Galeão) - Porto Alegre ----- 1,241,525

São Paulo (Guarulhos) - Rio de Janeiro (Galeão) ----- 1,224,854

São Paulo (Guarulhos) - Brasília ----- 1,206,564


Rio de Janeiro (Santos Dumont) - Brasília ----- 1,191,044

Brasília - Belo Horizonte (Confins) ----- 1,188,944

São Paulo (Guarulhos) - Curitiba ----- 1,134,958

São Paulo (Campinas) - Rio de Janeiro (Galeão) ----- 907,975

São Paulo (Guarulhos) - Belo Horizonte (Confins) ----- 904,471


Rio de Janeiro (Santos Dumont) - Belo Horizonte (Confins) ----- 898,869

Rio de Janeiro (Galeão) - Recife ----- 894,178
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #129  
Old Posted Jan 19, 2014, 2:23 AM
Acajack's Avatar
Acajack Acajack is offline
Unapologetic Occidental
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Province 2, Canadian Empire
Posts: 68,143
Quote:
Originally Posted by New Brisavoine View Post
^^How do Francophone Montréalais react to France's French accent being more and more heard in daily life? Is it perceived as charming? annoying? tedious? funny? too visible? fresh and new? growing too much in terms of presence? something else? I wonder.
A few decades ago a lot of people did not like it and found it annoying but today I'd say it's part of the scenery. You hear a multitude of accents in French these days: Haitian, African, Middle Eastern, European... and even anglo!
__________________
The Last Word.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #130  
Old Posted Jan 19, 2014, 2:27 AM
Acajack's Avatar
Acajack Acajack is offline
Unapologetic Occidental
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Province 2, Canadian Empire
Posts: 68,143
Quote:
Originally Posted by New Brisavoine View Post
I'm ready to bet 1,000 dollars the French-speaking Maghrebans won't move from Montréal or Québec City to Calgary or Saskatoon. It's all talk. Having to learn English and adapt to a new environment would be way more demanding for them than having to live with a secular state in Québec. They cried a lot in France too before the laws banning veils in public administrations (well, I should rather say "a small but very vocal minority" cried a lot), and then when the laws were passed it was all soon forgotten, and women unveil when they have to go to a public administration, and the world hasn't stopped or the banlieues collapsed. Same will happen in Québec I predict. In fact even 'multiculti' Britain is studying French secular laws now, after recent scandals and controversies in various British schools. That says a lot!

.
Yes, people will bitch but I doubt it will make a significant dent in immigration patterns to Quebec. Only a small minority of immigrants to Quebec wear ''ostentatious'' (highly visible) religious symbols anyway.

Some may move but it isn't as if there is a shortage of people who want to move to western developed societies. And Quebec is in niche (francophone immigration) that almost no one else is in.
__________________
The Last Word.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #131  
Old Posted Jan 19, 2014, 2:31 AM
Acajack's Avatar
Acajack Acajack is offline
Unapologetic Occidental
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Province 2, Canadian Empire
Posts: 68,143
Quote:
Originally Posted by Allan83 View Post

And saying that Quebec’s growth rate is now equal to Ontario’s isn’t much to boast about. Ontario’s growth has been slow for some years now and is below the national average.
http://www.statcan.gc.ca/tables-tabl...emo02b-eng.htm

.
Compared to the hyper-growth of Alberta, immigration to Quebec looks slow, but it takes in more immigration relative to population than the United States of America.

It also takes in more immigrants than all of the US states with comparable population, and relative population more than booming states like California, Florida and Texas.

Immigration to Quebec relative in sheer numbers is about the same as all of New York State (about 50,000 each a year).
__________________
The Last Word.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #132  
Old Posted Jan 19, 2014, 2:54 AM
New Brisavoine New Brisavoine is online now
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 2,137
Quote:
Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
And Quebec is in niche (francophone immigration) that almost no one else is in.
Well, there is a country of 66 million people across the Atlantic which is in the same niche.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
A few decades ago a lot of people did not like it and found it annoying but today I'd say it's part of the scenery. You hear a multitude of accents in French these days: Haitian, African, Middle Eastern, European... and even anglo!
It's very different from Paris then. In Paris people don't like different French accents (even if they don't say it explicitly, their attitude shows it implicitly). Sad to say, but I think if the Parisians heard the Québécois accent everyday and everywhere in Paris, they would probably not like it at all (of course when it's the one traveler once in a year, they find it cute). Migrants in Paris (both domestic migrants and international immigrants) try in general to hide their accents and adopt the "neutral" Parisian accent, due to this very strong and implicit social pressure. It's quite obvious in the case of migrants from other French regions, who hide their accents as much as possible when they move to Paris. It's harder for African immigrants, but usually their children adopt the (ugly) banlieue Parisian accent (which is another sort of Parisian accent, used by working-class White people in the banlieues as well as children of immigrants).
__________________
New Axa – New Brisavoine
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #133  
Old Posted Jan 19, 2014, 3:10 AM
rousseau's Avatar
rousseau rousseau is offline
Registered Drug User
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Southern Ontario
Posts: 8,119
Quebec population change in 2013: +71,300 (0.9%)
Ontario population change in 2013: +126,000 (0.9%)
Alberta population change in 2013: +136,300 (3.5%)

2013 was a remarkable year where Alberta's population growth was freakishly huge. The oil industry is booming there. But Ontario and Quebec have had consistent population increases over the years. Nobody's really concerned with "boasting," but the idea that Ontario and Quebec's increases are "nothing to boast about" is bizarre.

How many other jurisdictions of around 13.5 million people in the world have had an annual population increase of 136,000, most of it due to immigration? And Quebec's population of 7.9 million grew by 71,300, also mostly due to immigration. Those are remarkable figures in any place or era. And somehow people keep going to Quebec, even in spite of the fact that they do things differently there from Alberta.

[Comment removed]

Last edited by KevinFromTexas; Jan 19, 2014 at 11:04 AM. Reason: No name calling
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #134  
Old Posted Jan 19, 2014, 3:12 AM
Acajack's Avatar
Acajack Acajack is offline
Unapologetic Occidental
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Province 2, Canadian Empire
Posts: 68,143
Quote:
Originally Posted by New Brisavoine View Post
Well, there is a country of 66 million people across the Atlantic which is in the same niche.
True, but the perception on the part of most people in Francophonie countries in the developing world is that France isn't that interested in immigration from there any more and that it's harder and harder to get into there.
__________________
The Last Word.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #135  
Old Posted Jan 19, 2014, 3:17 AM
Acajack's Avatar
Acajack Acajack is offline
Unapologetic Occidental
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Province 2, Canadian Empire
Posts: 68,143
Quote:
Originally Posted by New Brisavoine View Post

It's very different from Paris then. In Paris people don't like different French accents (even if they don't say it explicitly, their attitude shows it implicitly). Sad to say, but I think if the Parisians heard the Québécois accent everyday and everywhere in Paris, they would probably not like it at all (of course when it's the one traveler once in a year, they find it cute). Migrants in Paris (both domestic migrants and international immigrants) try in general to hide their accents and adopt the "neutral" Parisian accent, due to this very strong and implicit social pressure. It's quite obvious in the case of migrants from other French regions, who hide their accents as much as possible when they move to Paris. It's harder for African immigrants, but usually their children adopt the (ugly) banlieue Parisian accent (which is another sort of Parisian accent, used by working-class White people in the banlieues as well as children of immigrants).
You made me think about something that I have never noticed: no one bitches about immigrant accents in French in Quebec. NEVER.

I wonder if it isn't because people in Quebec have been bitching for 50 or 75 years that immigrants don't speak French, so now that most of them do, it would be a bit ridiculous to criticize them because they have an accent or make mistakes!
__________________
The Last Word.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #136  
Old Posted Jan 19, 2014, 3:43 AM
New Brisavoine New Brisavoine is online now
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 2,137
Quote:
Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
True, but the perception on the part of most people in Francophonie countries in the developing world is that France isn't that interested in immigration from there any more and that it's harder and harder to get into there.
France is currently in a complete state of denial regarding immigration. It's a bit like the USA in the 1930s and 1940s. I don't think it will last forever. There are too many links between France and Africa. And Africa will always be geographically closer to France than to Québec.

That being said, the last net migration figures of France are ridiculous, considering that France is 8 times more populated than Québec.

Net migration in 2008:
- Metropolitan France (the European part of France): +66,930
- Québec: +43,115

Net migration in 2009:
- Metropolitan France: +44,222
- Québec: +55,815 !!

Net migration in 2010:
- Metropolitan France: +43,354
- Québec: +51,680 !!

Net migration in 2011:
- Metropolitan France: N/A
- Québec: +45,966

Net migration in 2012:
- Metropolitan France: N/A
- Québec: +45,428
__________________
New Axa – New Brisavoine
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #137  
Old Posted Jan 19, 2014, 3:54 AM
Razor Razor is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Ottawa
Posts: 2,944
You get this

Quote:
Originally Posted by Allan83 View Post
And of course the biggest single event during that time was the election of the separatist Parti Quebecois government in 1976, with the charismatic Rene Levesque as the new premier. This is when the separation of Quebec became a very real possibility, and after that Anglophones, Allophones, and businesses started leaving Quebec in large numbers. The exodus stemmed somewhat after the PQ lost the referendum in 1980, but the threat of separation has hung over Quebec since then and the uncertainty has greatly restricted growth. Recently a new PQ government and its proposed Charter of Values has destabilized things again, and once again many people are talking about leaving Quebec.
Then you get this which I totally agree with. The shift started happening well before.As a matter of fact The October crisis in 1970 started the Brinks trucks rolling down the 401 to Toronto, but ya the full effects of the transition started showing in around 1976.
Quote:
Originally Posted by New Brisavoine View Post
Well according to the statistical office of Québec, significant departures from Québec to the rest of Canada started in 1966, 10 years before the PQ came to power.


Bravo!
Quote:
Originally Posted by rousseau View Post
Just out of curiosity, is there anything that Allan83 says that isn't complete horseshit? He obviously enjoys playing the counterintuitive contrarian, but his assertions rarely seem to stand up under even the most passing scrutiny. Which is the classic definition of a troll, I guess.
You see, Allan is a tad bit insecure, so you have to cut him some slack I guess.

Last edited by Razor; Jan 19, 2014 at 4:09 AM.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #138  
Old Posted Jan 19, 2014, 4:01 AM
New Brisavoine New Brisavoine is online now
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 2,137
Quote:
Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
You made me think about something that I have never noticed: no one bitches about immigrant accents in French in Quebec. NEVER.
Nobody bitches about immigrant accents in French in Paris either, but there is a certain je-ne-sais-quoi in the attitude of people that makes you feel that immigrant (and regional) accents are strongly frowned upon, sometimes to the point of mockery (Eastern Asian French accent is the one I've heard the most mocked). The social pressure to conform to Parisian accent is strong, although almost always implicit and non verbal.

I think this social pressure is less obvious in the rest of France, probably because people there are already used to hearing a different accent on television (i.e. the Paris accent of national TV channels), so they are more accepting of different accents.

One true story that was told to me by a friend of my parents from southern France, and which I would never have believed if it hadn't actually happened. In the 1930s, someone from Narbonne in southern France who was an acquaintance of my parents' friend took the aggrégation in French, which is the highest level exam when you want to become a professor at the university or in top high schools (in this case, a professor of the French language). At the time, the aggrégation exam only took place in Paris (today I think there are aggrégation exams in the provinces too). There were written and oral tests/dissertations/exposés. When the guy, who was a highly literate person (only a highly literate person could pass the aggrégation in French) went to Paris for the oral part of the aggrégation and stood in front of the jury, he spoke with the strong southern French accent of Narbonne (think Charles Trénet when he wasn't hiding his accent). In the end, one member of the jury bluntly told him this: "Monsieur, quand on a un accent comme le vôtre, on ne passe pas l'aggrégation de français." I've always hated that story!
__________________
New Axa – New Brisavoine
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #139  
Old Posted Jan 19, 2014, 4:10 AM
GreaterMontréal's Avatar
GreaterMontréal GreaterMontréal is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 4,580
Montréal doesn't care, they speak french. They don't believe in god, which is a +.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #140  
Old Posted Jan 19, 2014, 4:31 AM
Allan83 Allan83 is offline
BANNED
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Calgary
Posts: 1,410
Quote:
Originally Posted by New Brisavoine View Post
Well according to the statistical office of Québec, significant departures from Québec to the rest of Canada started in 1966, 10 years before the PQ came to power. The outflows didn't rise after the PQ came to power in 1976. It's the inflows from the rest of Canada into Québec which decreased significantly when the PQ came to power. As a result, in the 5 years from 1976 to 1980, the cumulative net migration between Québec and the rest of Canada was -153,674 (i.e. during those 5 years, there were 153,674 more people who left Québec to the rest of Canada than people from the rest of Canada who moved to Québec).
Seriously, does that sound reasonable to you? The numbers you’ve listed may well be right, but they’re not because people stopped coming to Quebec from the rest of Canada. I doubt that very many people were moving to Quebec at that time. It’s essentially common knowledge outside of Quebec that Anglophones and Allophones started leaving Quebec in large numbers after 1976, and most of them were coming from Montreal, but also some from the Eastern Townships I believe. Not many people were packing up and leaving Saguenay because Rene Levesque got elected, so while this didn’t affect the overall population of Quebec that much, it did have a significant impact on Montreal. Also note that the uncertainly created by the election of the PQ caused many businesses to leave, and many to not locate there in the first place. If we’re comparing Toronto and Montreal on population, GDP and such measures, the election of the PQ in 1976 had a big impact on that. If we're talking about culture, otoh, Montreal is still the most important city in Canada, although these days there isn't a single dominant city, and instead it comes from many cites from coast to coast to coast.

And you’re probably right that unilingual Francophones probably won’t leave Quebec in large numbers if the charter passes, but the bilingual ones and the Anglophones may well move. This is a side issues anyway, but it could be an echo of what happened in 1976.
Reply With Quote
     
     
This discussion thread continues

Use the page links to the lower-right to go to the next page for additional posts
 
 
Reply

Go Back   SkyscraperPage Forum > Discussion Forums > City Discussions
Forum Jump



Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 12:03 PM.

     
SkyscraperPage.com - Archive - Privacy Statement - Top

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.