Winnipeg | Canada's Diversity Gardens

[Spocket]

Originally Posted by headhorse

capitalism is mumbo jumbo, it is hard to understand but that's because it doesn't make any sense and is thus early impossible to try to explain

What truly makes no sense today is anybody who can still find a way to support hardcore socialism or communism. It failed every single time it was tried and killed roughly 100 million people in the process. Frankly, if social justice is what you want then the smart thing is to support a better governed form of capitalism, not a system that is both murderous and tyrannical.

[EdwardTH]

Originally Posted by Tacheguy

I guess the sky would fall if we had one free zoo. After all, this is the “real world”.

Will the sky fall if we don't have a free zoo? Because you guys seem to think that having admission fees at a couple of facilities represents the total collapse of civil society.

[Tacheguy]

Originally Posted by Spocket

What truly makes no sense today is anybody who can still find a way to support hardcore socialism or communism. It failed every single time it was tried and killed roughly 100 million people in the process. Frankly, if social justice is what you want then the smart thing is to support a better governed form of capitalism, not a system that is both murderous and tyrannical.

Originally Posted by EdwardTH

Will the sky fall if we don't have a free zoo? Because you guys seem to think that having admission fees at a couple of facilities represents the total collapse of civil society.

No the sky won’t fall if poor families can’t afford to see the polar bears. They can still walk around the fences.

[Ando]

Originally Posted by Curmudgeon

You wrote: "The fact is that our communities wouldn't have these type of facilities without admission fees". That is simply not true. There are numerous free museum and galleries throughout the world. Most of the major museums in the U.K. such as the British Museum or the V&A, some of the best in the world, do not charge admission, nor does the Smithsonian in Washington, D.C. . Closer to home, the very excellent Minneapolis Institute of Art and Como Park Conservatory in Saint Paul as well as the Lincoln Park Conservatory in Chicago are free.

There have been studies which have concluded that free admission does not appreciably increase visitor numbers. Yet on the flip side, admissions in most cases contribute only a small percentage to operating costs. In cases where foot traffic is low, charging admissions may result in the cost of collection and administration exceeding the admissions revenue. In smaller cities where the potential visitor pool is correspondingly small and where the attraction mostly relies on local visitors (ie. Winnipeg) free admissions do encourage much more frequent second and third visits and increase foot traffic in museum restaurants and shops. What the research also showed is that many people prefer to pay an admission as it makes the visiting experience more enjoyable (less crowded). There are other options too, such as a suggested but non-mandatory admission fee (such as the Met in New York used to do for all, though they mislead many patrons by making the suggested fee seem like it was mandatory) or charging extra for special exhibitions. It is not true to suggest that you either pay admissions or you will not have cultural attractions at all.

I do not think it is outrageous for the new Diversity Gardens to charge an admission fee as long as it is not excessive, such as the admission fees for the Zoo are for instance. For two adults with a teenager child and an under 13 to visit the Zoo it's a $73.50 admission. There is no family rate. Add a drink for eachand it becomes a $90 afternoon. Far too expensive for many families. To ensure that everybody has at least some opportunity to visit, the Gardens should have one free day every month and during the summer months the hours on the free day should be extended into the evening. Also the concession fees have to be considerably reduced compared with the adult fee. They should be no more than half the full admission. At the Zoo adults pay $20.50 while a 13 year old pays $17.75 (both plus GST) as do students. Too much for people who have no to very low income. I do not agree with any type of low income pass as it is absurd to expect someone to declare their income to get a reduced admission at a public facility and then there is the question of what income level should be considered "low" in the first place.

Actually, what said was “all over the world people pay admission to institutions like museums and conservatories”. This is simply true. If you go to MOMA in NYC, you will pay up to $25. If you go to the Louvre you will 9 euros to get in. I was in Vietnam a few months ago and all the museums charge admission. Most “free” museums charge and make most of their money from regular exhibitions. The other thing I said was “our communities” wouldn’t have these types of institutions without admission fees. We don’t have massive private endowments and there is no way Diversity Gardens would have been built, no Journey to Churchill, without the prospect of $$ from admission fees. Sure, we could have a zoo with a lonely caribou, and an owl that could free, but I imagine not much of an attraction. As long as allowance is made for disadvantaged groups to have access, then I think it can be a win win scenario.

[Ando]

Originally Posted by rrskylar

What doesn’t make sense is socialism because it goes against all human nature, read Animal Farm for some more insight!

Animal Farm was a critique of Stalinism by Orwell, who was a democratic socialist.

[Ando]

Originally Posted by Spocket

What truly makes no sense today is anybody who can still find a way to support hardcore socialism or communism. It failed every single time it was tried and killed roughly 100 million people in the process. Frankly, if social justice is what you want then the smart thing is to support a better governed form of capitalism, not a system that is both murderous and tyrannical.

I am sure a lot of people would call what you are referring to as fascism, which is different. I don’t think all the democratic socialist countries in Europe have killed hundreds of millions of people.

[EspionNoir]

Anyone has a pic for the site? I really wanna witness the roof

[Ando]

Originally Posted by Tacheguy

No the sky won’t fall if poor families can’t afford to see the polar bears. They can still walk around the fences.

You are being totally disingenuous. There are free days for all for example.

[TimeFadesAway]

Originally Posted by Ando

I am sure a lot of people would call what you are referring to as fascism, which is different. I don’t think all the democratic socialist countries in Europe have killed hundreds of millions of people.

What he seems to be referring to is best described as socialist totalitarianism. Fascism is right-wing totalitarianism.

The biggest problem is that there has been a successful and deliberate campaign to conflate social democracy with socialism. The two are vastly different, as socialism necessitates the collectivization of the means of production. This, in practice, seems to devolve quickly into totalitarianism.

Social democracy has been the most successful form of government in history on an overall per capita outcome basis (looking beyond just financial measures).

[Curmudgeon]

Originally Posted by Ando

You are being totally disingenuous. There are free days for all for example.

There are currently no free days offered at the Zoo. In the past couple of months there has been a $15 admission for adults, seniors, students and youth (13-17) offered on one day of each month. The next one is the 26th of April.

[Curmudgeon]

Originally Posted by Ando

Actually, what said was “all over the world people pay admission to institutions like museums and conservatories”. This is simply true. If you go to MOMA in NYC, you will pay up to $25. If you go to the Louvre you will 9 euros to get in. I was in Vietnam a few months ago and all the museums charge admission. Most “free” museums charge and make most of their money from regular exhibitions. The other thing I said was “our communities” wouldn’t have these types of institutions without admission fees. We don’t have massive private endowments and there is no way Diversity Gardens would have been built, no Journey to Churchill, without the prospect of $$ from admission fees. Sure, we could have a zoo with a lonely caribou, and an owl that could free, but I imagine not much of an attraction. As long as allowance is made for disadvantaged groups to have access, then I think it can be a win win scenario.

Correct, and all over the world there are free museums and conservatories. The Minneapolis Instititute of Art is free and it is excellent. The Louvre is free for all under 18s and for under 26s for residents of almost every European country. It also has a generous policy with repect to free nights and days. I don't know what you mean by "our communities". In any event, for cultural attractions that do have paid admissions the revenue from them generally makes up only a small portion of the operating budget. At the CMHR earned revenue is just about one eighth of the operaing budget and less than half of earned revenue is from paid admissions (see CMHR corporate plan). With respect to DG a moderate admission fee ($10 max for adults) is not unfair but I don't believe the dogma that you either charge admission or you won't get any cultural attractions. There are a number of ways to fund museums, galleries, conservatories, etc.

[Biff]

I think most large tourist attractions around the world now charge to get in. On our recent trip we were amazed how much it cost to see the Colosseum, Vatican, Sistine Chapel, Last Supper, etc....things you would truly believe should be free for all. On of the main components now is facilities have security costs which they likely didn’t have before 9-11.

[esquire]

^ Probably not a big deal in Winnipeg, but the sheer growth in tourism means that a lot of A level tourist destinations probably have to charge a steep entrance fee just to manage the numbers and pay for the costs of having so many people come through.

It can still get a bit exploitive, though... For instance, it costs nearly $50 to go up the CN tower...

[optimusREIM]

Originally Posted by esquire

^ Probably not a big deal in Winnipeg, but the sheer growth in tourism means that a lot of A level tourist destinations probably have to charge a steep entrance fee just to manage the numbers and pay for the costs of having so many people come through.

It can still get a bit exploitive, though... For instance, it costs nearly $50 to go up the CN tower...

Damn, when I went a few years ago it was still only 32 or so. 50 bucks just to ride an elevator is ridiculous.

[Biff]

Yeah, but that $50 includes the valuable research that gives me the confidence the glass floor can hold 1,091 beavers. I wouldn't walk on anything that couldn't hold at least a 1,000 beavers.

That research isn't free you know.

[esquire]

^ Hah

The last time I went up the CN Tower was the day Windows 95 was released and Microsoft gave people free rides up the tower all day to celebrate... although my kids are bugging me to go so I might have to take them and pony up that extortionate admission fee

[Biff]

We were just there. There are coupons around, I think we paid $32ish for a family of 4.

[esquire]

^ For all 4 of you? Not bad at all, thanks for the tip

[Bluenote]

Originally Posted by Tacheguy

No the sky won’t fall if poor families can’t afford to see the polar bears. They can still walk around the fences.

If the so said poor families can afford internet and a new iphone they can afford to pay admission. I see those so called poor people still being able to go see concerts also.

[EdwardTH]

Originally Posted by Bluenote

If the so said poor families can afford internet and a new iphone they can afford to pay admission. I see those so called poor people still being able to go see concerts also.

So you personally know all of the poor people in Winnipeg and somehow track all of their purchases? When you go to a concert do you ask the guy next to you for a pay stub or something? Also phone and internet are like basic necessities....