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  #1  
Old Posted Apr 1, 2014, 8:55 PM
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Oh, PCL will push hard on this one.


I know I'm glad I'm not working on it.. PCL is terrible to work with at the best of times. Compress the schedule and throw in an upset price, and they'll be putting the screws to their people in ways even they have never dreamed of doing..
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Old Posted Apr 1, 2014, 9:01 PM
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'PCL is terrible to work with at the best of times.'

Disagree. They delivered my last project 2 months early and essentially on budget and were a pleasure to work with.
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Old Posted Apr 1, 2014, 9:03 PM
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^ LOL.. oh Ian


Ask around what PCL stands for in the industry

Of the biggies, they are by far the worst to deal with
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Old Posted Apr 1, 2014, 9:11 PM
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I've heard the same from some major mech. contractors 240...vows never to work on PCL sites again aren't rampant, but not uncommon.
To each their own
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Old Posted Apr 1, 2014, 9:12 PM
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I know where you are going with that, my experiences have been different.

Having worked with Chandos, PCL, Clark, Ledcor, Bird, Nason, etc. I believe that I am qualified to answer that thank you very much.

They are a HUGE machine and sometimes that helps and sometimes it hinders sure, but overall I enjoy working with them.
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Old Posted Apr 1, 2014, 9:16 PM
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I easily have as much construction experience as you.. Probably much much more in fact.. And my viewpoint is very common in the industry
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Old Posted Apr 1, 2014, 9:26 PM
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I easily have as much construction experience as you.. Probably much much more in fact.. And my viewpoint is very common in the industry
That's nice and we are all impressed but if that is Ian's experience, then it is completely valid (this isn't a competition on who has more experience). I for one want a company who is going to be pushing their employees to meet deadlines and budgets, this project is going to be tough to do properly in the 2.5 years it is scheduled for.
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Old Posted Apr 1, 2014, 9:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Coldrsx View Post
I know where you are going with that, my experiences have been different.

Having worked with Chandos, PCL, Clark, Ledcor, Bird, Nason, etc. I believe that I am qualified to answer that thank you very much.

They are a HUGE machine and sometimes that helps and sometimes it hinders sure, but overall I enjoy working with them.
ian, you may well have enjoyed working with them.

and i have enjoyed having them work on some of our projects (and chandos and clark and ledcor and graham and maple reinders and willow springs and... for that matter).

but neither of us has worked for them - or for any of the others for that matter - as sub-contractors which was what 240glt and ExcaliberKid were sharing/commenting on from their perspective.

don't get me wrong, in some cases you - and i for that matter - probably don't want sub-contractors happy at the expense of what the gc or the cm is working to achieve on behalf of the consultants and/or the owner but even that doesn't necessarily negate everything else all of the time.
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Old Posted Apr 1, 2014, 9:40 PM
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Of course not and others surely have varying experiences, but on my 2 PCL jobs they were good.
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Old Posted Apr 1, 2014, 9:40 PM
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^ exactly Ken.

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Originally Posted by hilman View Post
That's nice and we are all impressed but if that is Ian's experience, then it is completely valid (this isn't a competition on who has more experience). I for one want a company who is going to be pushing their employees to meet deadlines and budgets, this project is going to be tough to do properly in the 2.5 years it is scheduled for.
I've been involved in hundreds of projects with dozens if GC's. I've experienced all types of project management styles and i can say with some degree of authority that more often than not, beating people (figuratively speaking of course) is typically not the best way to drive productivity, and leads to the type of reputation we're talking about here
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Old Posted Apr 1, 2014, 10:11 PM
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^ LOL.. oh Ian


Ask around what PCL stands for in the industry

Of the biggies, they are by far the worst to deal with
As a guy that was usually the last sub (30+ years) on site PCL became one of the better firms to work with, not the early Poole firm. Ellisdon was in my books the worst.

And in my new life, Clark and JenCol are the best to deal with as a consultant followed by PCL. Working with Bird, Delnor and Chandos all increase my alcohol consumption.

However because the construction schedule is so tight expect quite a bit of push. , looking at the people involved on this site all the subs have long track records with PCL so they should work well together.



240 and Cold you both have valid opinions, The big problem with all GCs right now is we are getting so many guys out of busness programs running the PM side that have no construction experience, so they don't have a feel for putting a building up.
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Old Posted Apr 1, 2014, 10:15 PM
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PCL (or other any general contractor) is there to deliver a product to their client. They do that. Not to build a productive relationship with subcontractors or suppliers.

They are hired because they have the ability to throw there weight around and dangle carrots to subs and suppliers. Key relationships are maintained, but everybody else is replaceable.
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Old Posted Apr 1, 2014, 10:26 PM
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^ you display a fundamental lack of understanding of how big projects come together, and how those people that get those projects done do so effectively. Maintaining good relationships with subs is one of the key ways that good GC's and their subs and their sub-subs get work done effectively. Good lord... I couldn't imagine not maintaining good relationships with my subs and suppliers.. without them you are screwed.

If they are bad you punt them. If they are good you take care of them. That's how it's done.


@ Airboy.. I was in the same position, being the BMCS contractor. Generally the last out, working with the TAB guys and the commissioning agents. I've never had a poor experience with PCL personally as I was usually sub to the MC, 99% of which I had a very positive relationship with. But I have heard plenty of negative feedback from very qualified people to substantiate my position.

Clark has been my favorite to work with over the years, with Stuart Olson, Graham and Ledcor rounding out my top 4.

I hear you on your "worst" list as well


There's a reason I liked doing direct to owner design-build work
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Old Posted Apr 1, 2014, 10:32 PM
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^ you display a fundamental lack of understanding of how big projects come together. Maintaining good relationships with subs is one of the key ways that good GC's and their subs and their sub-subs get work done effectively. Good lord... I couldn't imagine not maintaining good relationships with my subs and suppliers.. without them you are screwed


@ Airboy.. I was in the same position, being the BMCS contractor. Generally the last out, working with the TAB guys and the commissioning agents. I've never had a poor experience with PCL personally as I was usually sub to the MC, 99% of which I had a very positive relationship with. But I have heard plenty of negative feedback from very qualified people to substantiate my position.

Clark has been my favorite to work with over the years, with Stuart Olson, Graham and Ledcor rounding out my top 4.

I hear you on your "worst" list as well


There's a reason I like direct to owner design-build work
I agree with your point here. You want good working relationships with the subs to get the job done with the least conflict. I know you and I have worked together in the past as I had to suck up to get balance programs.

Besides a few GCs the Tin Smashers were the worst to work with. MCs were better to work for.

Now in my current position I try to have good relations with all the subs. It’s amazing how well a project comes together when everyone gets along and can keep the Bull Shit to a tolerable level.
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Old Posted Apr 1, 2014, 10:47 PM
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PCL (or other any general contractor) is there to deliver a product to their client. They do that. Not to build a productive relationship with subcontractors or suppliers.

They are hired because they have the ability to throw there weight around and dangle carrots to subs and suppliers. Key relationships are maintained, but everybody else is replaceable.
as an owner, there is absolutely no way i want relationships with subcontractors or suppliers on one of my projects that are not productive relationships.

is there sometimes a nominal premium to be paid in order to achieve that? maybe. but it's probably a lot less than the premium that will be extracted by subcontractors or suppliers without a productive relationship either on the project at hand or projects down the road.

that doesn't mean throwing money at things. sometimes it's a matter of paying quickly and supporting the safety programs (which aren't cheap when properly implemented) and recognizing quality craftsmanship when you come across it (it is there to be found and recognizing it goes a long way towards getting it) and not hanging a trade out to dry on an honest mistake.

if i want to be treated in a particular way and if i want my projects to be treated in a particular way, these are all two-way streets. and for what it's worth, it's not the gc's role or the cm's role to "be the heavy for the owner". owners that use their gc or cm like that deserve what they get and the gc or cm shouldn't always get the blame even though they're sometimes the easier target.
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Old Posted Apr 1, 2014, 11:20 PM
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as an owner, there is absolutely no way i want relationships with subcontractors or suppliers on one of my projects that are not productive relationships.

is there sometimes a nominal premium to be paid in order to achieve that? maybe. but it's probably a lot less than the premium that will be extracted by subcontractors or suppliers without a productive relationship either on the project at hand or projects down the road.

that doesn't mean throwing money at things. sometimes it's a matter of paying quickly and supporting the safety programs (which aren't cheap when properly implemented) and recognizing quality craftsmanship when you come across it (it is there to be found and recognizing it goes a long way towards getting it) and not hanging a trade out to dry on an honest mistake.

if i want to be treated in a particular way and if i want my projects to be treated in a particular way, these are all two-way streets. and for what it's worth, it's not the gc's role or the cm's role to "be the heavy for the owner". owners that use their gc or cm like that deserve what they get and the gc or cm shouldn't always get the blame even though they're sometimes the easier target.
Re read my last line. Key relationships are maintained, everybody else is replaceable. Disagree or Agree?

I see this (obviously not directed at you kc) all the time, but every single trade, profession or role, on a site thinks that they are the crucial aspect that without them the whole project would fall apart. Their not, I'm not, and unless your paying the bills you aren't either.

As a consultant I have numerous relationships that are critical for me and the success of my projects and the owner I am representing. You guys are absolutely right, but there are also occasions where contractors and consultants are interchangeable with the guy down the street.
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Old Posted Apr 1, 2014, 11:48 PM
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Re read my last line. Key relationships are maintained, everybody else is replaceable. Disagree or Agree?

I see this (obviously not directed at you kc) all the time, but every single trade, profession or role, on a site thinks that they are the crucial aspect that without them the whole project would fall apart. Their not, I'm not, and unless your paying the bills you aren't either.

As a consultant I have numerous relationships that are critical for me and the success of my projects and the owner I am representing. You guys are absolutely right, but there are also occasions where contractors and consultants are interchangeable with the guy down the street.
disagree. period. full stop.

there aren't two tiers of trades and sub-trades or consultants any more than there are two tiers of fans for oilers hockey.

even where a contractor or a consultant might well be interchangeable with the guy down the street, if an honest price has been provided and honest work is being performed, they are not interchangeable playing cards to be played at a whim or without cause once they have been awarded the work and it has been accepted in good faith.

interchangeable as a result of dishonest pricing or cheating on the work being done? absolutely. in a heart beat. but there aren't two tiers there either. that applies to all of them right up to the gc/cm and the prime consultant.

Last edited by kcantor; Apr 2, 2014 at 12:11 AM.
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Old Posted Apr 2, 2014, 1:48 PM
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disagree. period. full stop.

there aren't two tiers of trades and sub-trades or consultants any more than there are two tiers of fans for oilers hockey.

even where a contractor or a consultant might well be interchangeable with the guy down the street, if an honest price has been provided and honest work is being performed, they are not interchangeable playing cards to be played at a whim or without cause once they have been awarded the work and it has been accepted in good faith.

interchangeable as a result of dishonest pricing or cheating on the work being done? absolutely. in a heart beat. but there aren't two tiers there either. that applies to all of them right up to the gc/cm and the prime consultant.
I did not mean to imply trades were interchangeable during a project. From one project to another is what I meant.
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Old Posted Apr 2, 2014, 2:20 PM
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PCL (or other any general contractor) is there to deliver a product to their client. They do that. Not to build a productive relationship with subcontractors or suppliers.
Show your lack of understanding of how people and companies put projects together

I know you're still a bit of a rookie when it comes to thiis kind of stuff, but assuredly, it's relationships between GC's, subs and sub-subs that span many projects that are key to delivering projects in a timely and effective manner

If a particular company or group has a difficult time cooperating or working with another, it's less likely that when it comes time to deliver on an RFQ that they will be able to be competitive. So yes, it's critically important that relationships span projects, as they generally do here.
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Old Posted Apr 2, 2014, 2:25 PM
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I agree with your point here. You want good working relationships with the subs to get the job done with the least conflict. I know you and I have worked together in the past as I had to suck up to get balance programs.

Besides a few GCs the Tin Smashers were the worst to work with. MCs were better to work for.

Now in my current position I try to have good relations with all the subs. It’s amazing how well a project comes together when everyone gets along and can keep the Bull Shit to a tolerable level.
In my field it was critically important to find and retain good subs. Good controls electricians are hard to find, good technicians are almost impossible to find, and I would often work with promising electrical firms to help them develop that aspect of their business.. it was good for them and good for me.

As for GC's.. a good one will do things for you (escpecially for guys like us that are always there at close-out) like leave a ceiling out until the last minute, or hold off stripping a finished floor while you are still doing ladder work. The good GC's know that it's better to work with the subs than to simply slam everything together regardless whether the last part of the work was done.. I've been there too and it is a pain

I don't like tin bashers either. They always messed up my dampers
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