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  #281  
Old Posted May 24, 2007, 9:01 AM
greenmidtown greenmidtown is offline
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Originally Posted by BrianSac View Post
Why do you expect Sacramentans to foot the bill, when they can't even use it from the own city? The Capital City, no less.

How are we expected to get to LA....take amtrak to Fresno and tranfer to HSR? How are we expected to connect to the bay area...Amtrak? That totally sucks!!!

Sacramento will be stuck with Amtrak to both the bay area and LA for decades while the the bay area, fresno, and LA are all connected by HSR; that really really pisses me off!
it does suck Brian but you have to be patient for the benefit of all. Sac deserves a line but the Bay Area and LA are the most populous regions by far in California and are the most feasibile in that respect. I'm confident HSR would be a smashing success and the next line to Sac would be built soon after. I think Americans psychologically hate flying more than most foreigners and would hop at the opportunity to use HSR. I would personally drive or take Amtrak to the Bay Area for the opportunity to use HSR, it's not that far. I'm sure many other Sacramentans would do the same. just to see HSR in California would make me more proud of living here than anything. it would also boost tourism dramatically.
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  #282  
Old Posted May 24, 2007, 2:19 PM
travis bickle travis bickle is offline
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Originally Posted by greenmidtown View Post
it does suck Brian but you have to be patient for the benefit of all. Sac deserves a line but the Bay Area and LA are the most populous regions by far in California and are the most feasibile in that respect. I'm confident HSR would be a smashing success and the next line to Sac would be built soon after. I think Americans psychologically hate flying more than most foreigners and would hop at the opportunity to use HSR. I would personally drive or take Amtrak to the Bay Area for the opportunity to use HSR, it's not that far. I'm sure many other Sacramentans would do the same. just to see HSR in California would make me more proud of living here than anything. it would also boost tourism dramatically.

Yeah, be patient... because it will never get to Sacramento or San Diego and you'll once again have paid for a project that primarily benefits SF and LA. If HSR backers were confident that the entire system was going to get built they would have no problem building SF-Sac and LA-SD first. Those two corridors are I believe the #3 and #2 most heavily traveled routes in the country. But they know that once the first LA-SF route is built at cost most likely near or exceeding $50 bil., No is going to authorize an additional $20 bil. for the two extensions. It'll just be too expensive.

If they can build the 400 mile first phase, they can build a couple of 100 mile extensions at or near the same time. Perhaps if HSR mandated that the second phases must be under construction well before (say, two years) the first phase is operational, I could vote yes. Is that a compromise HSR backers could support?
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  #283  
Old Posted May 24, 2007, 4:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BrianSac View Post
I will not support this unless Sacramento is included in the first phase.

I will be damned if Fresno, the Central Valley, and Bay Area are connected to Southern Cal and Sacramento has to wait a decade or longer to be connected.

By 2010, Sacramento will have 2.3 million or more in its Metro area. Many people travel from Sacramento to Southern Cal.

Sacramento is the furthermost Metro from LA, and really the most in need of a connection to LA, simply because it is the furthest from LA.

Do it right the first time!
I agree BrianSac, I won't vote for it till Sacramento is part of the first phase... which
we won't and neither will San Diego By the time work begins and they are half way
done the cost of the project will have doubled if not more.



Bullet train route chosen
Board votes for S.F. to Anaheim, but key details remain iffy.
By E.J. Schultz of The Sacramento Bee
Thursday, May 24, 2007

If California builds a bullet train system -- and that's a big if -- the first segment would run from Anaheim to San Francisco with stops in Los Angeles and Fresno, but not in Sacramento or San Diego.

The High Speed Rail Authority approved the first phase Wednesday on a 5-2 vote, even as serious financing questions remain on the $40 billion-plus project.

Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger wants to delay public financing until private investors step to the plate, but two Democratic-controlled budget subcommittees voted this week to make a significant commitment in taxpayer dollars next year.

The authority also is hoping for a big share of federal dollars. But no one knows how much Congress might be willing to spend.

As envisioned, the rail line would eventually run from San Diego to as far north as Sacramento, with trains reaching top speeds of more than 200 miles per hour. The authority voted to tackle the Anaheim-to-San Francisco line first, saying the route through the fast-growing San Joaquin Valley would produce the highest ridership and revenue.

The San Diego-to-Los Angeles line -- running through one of the most crowded corridors in the state -- was not included because of a difference of opinion on train technology.

The Southern California Association of Governments is pushing for trains that float on air using electromagnetic force, known as magnetic levitation trains. But the rail authority wants to use more traditional steel-wheeled trains.

"Let's get real and stop daydreaming -- this is a steel-wheel project," said authority board member Lynn Schenk.

But Schenk, once the chief of staff for former Gov. Gray Davis, voted no on the plan because she wanted the entire route included in the first phase.

"I can't vote for any plan or proposal that will leave San Diego in the high-speed rail dustbin of history," she said.

Also voting no was David Crane, a special adviser to the governor on jobs and economic growth who was recently appointed to the rail board.

Crane, who wields significant influence in the Schwarzenegger administration, said it was premature to approve the first phase before consulting with private interests and federal lawmakers, who will be asked to carry a big financial load.

"We're still living in this imaginary world that is so Sacramento-centric," he said.

But Curt Pringle, another recent Schwarzenegger appointee, said the project couldn't wait that long.

"You have to start," he said. "And you have to start by putting in the rail, putting in the service (and) building the public acceptance."

Pringle, the mayor of Anaheim and a former Assembly Republican leader, also clashed with Crane over a financing plan also approved by the board on Wednesday.

According to the plan -- approved without Crane's or Schenk's vote -- the first phase would cost $27.5 billion to $39.5 billion. The federal government and state would pay the most, up to $12.5 billion each, with private companies paying $7.5 billion, and local agencies chipping in up to $4 billion.

The plan assumes it is "unlikely" that private firms would contribute until the state spent money on preconstruction and engineering work.

Crane argued that it is unwise to spend tax dollars until the state at least secured some level of private commitment. Pringle countered that companies would not step up until the state started spending money.

The state has already spent more than $30 million on environmental reviews and route planning. The authority wants $103 million next year for engineering work and to begin buying land for track.

The authority will assuredly get less than that, but how much less depends on negotiations between Schwarzenegger and lawmakers.

Schwarzenegger's budget proposal includes only $5.19 million, and $3.5 million of that would come from the Orange County Transportation Authority for planning work in Southern California. He also wants to indefinitely delay the $9.95 billion rail bond slated for the 2008 ballot -- a move that lawmakers would have to approve.

An Assembly subcommittee on Wednesday approved $50 million for the authority for next year, $4.8 million more than a Senate committee has approved.

The authority is hoping to get significant funding from the next big federal transportation spending bill, but the legislation is not due until 2010. The authority voted Wednesday to ramp up federal lobbying efforts.


http://www.sacbee.com/111/story/191840.html

Last edited by innov8; May 24, 2007 at 4:50 PM.
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  #284  
Old Posted May 24, 2007, 5:28 PM
DJM19 DJM19 is offline
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Saccramento CANT be in the first phase. It cant all be done at once.

Here are some facts:

1) LA and the SF region are the MOST in need of this rail line

2) LA and the SF region are the most populous areas

3) LA and the SF region pay more in taxes than the other planned areas, so they are footing more of the bill.
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  #285  
Old Posted May 24, 2007, 6:09 PM
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^ I know the facts... I just won't be voting for it if it comes to a vote.
We were told for years Sacramento would be part of the plan, just not the
plan that would be phase two... 20 years later or more if were lucky. I image the
San Diego voters will feel the same way. With the State going back into the
red with the State budget, there will be no money to finance anything anyway.
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  #286  
Old Posted May 24, 2007, 6:15 PM
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Good luck asking Californians from the valley and San Diegans to get taxed billions and not see anything for well over a decade. I am a huge supporter of HSR, but I refuse to vote for something that will not benefit me for quite some time... and only then "promised" to me by a bunch of politicians.
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  #287  
Old Posted May 24, 2007, 6:49 PM
nequidnimis nequidnimis is offline
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Wouldn't the extension to Sacramento be mostly built along existing railroad right of way in the Central Valley?

If so, on the one hand it makes it fairly inexpensive to build compared to other parts of the project.

But on the other hand, it also makes it possible to provide direct rail service to LA from Sacramento, with trains traveling at conventional speeds between Sacramento and somewhere north of Merced, and high speed the rest of the way.
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  #288  
Old Posted May 24, 2007, 7:29 PM
travis bickle travis bickle is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fusey View Post
Good luck asking Californians from the valley and San Diegans to get taxed billions and not see anything for well over a decade. I am a huge supporter of HSR, but I refuse to vote for something that will not benefit me for quite some time... and only then "promised" to me by a bunch of politicians.
You are CORRECT sir!
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  #289  
Old Posted May 24, 2007, 9:31 PM
DJM19 DJM19 is offline
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You are only assuming you will never get it. And you are assuming that it was going to be one phase, which was probably never the case, and wouldnt have made sense.
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  #290  
Old Posted May 24, 2007, 9:58 PM
Richard Mlynarik Richard Mlynarik is offline
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Quick questions for the brains trusts here:

How exactly does one go about constructing over 700 miles of anything "all at once"? I can't say I recall any freeway that was built that way, or in which completed sections were artificially closed for years while The System was Completed.

Where exactly (which set of states of nations) will the necessary work force and contractors be found? We're talking about a lot of bulldozers and concrete trucks.

And how exactly does one finance such an undertaking, given that billions of dollars of (bond-financed) assets will be sitting idle? Recall that the daily interest on $20 billion is over $2.5 million .. and of course it should all be borrowed all at once in order to start construction simultaneously along the entire network's length.

It does seem surprising that nobody else anywhere in the entire world does things this way, in any field of human endevour, doesn't it, but I guess it all goes to show that we here are very special.
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  #291  
Old Posted May 24, 2007, 11:48 PM
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Again, good luck convincing valley residents with two phases (and a basket full of cheap sarcasm).
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  #292  
Old Posted May 24, 2007, 11:59 PM
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I am a prime supporter of CAHSR, and I know people call me biased because I live in the Bay Area, so I've heard all that before. The way I've seen it, this is a normal scenario, and typical of us Californians. Always guarding whats in our best interests, and usually offerering resistance to anything that doesnt benefit us. I also fear that the only way we're going to convince the residents of San Diego and Sacramento to support the plan is to in fact, include the two cities in one big phase. Of course, its going to involve some serious pioneering because building anything of this lenght and magnitude in this state is a half step away from being impossible. Compromises and sacrifices will have to be made to make it go forward. How about starting the line in San Diego and Sacramento at the same time and having the two lines meet at the halfway point of the entire route? Of course, that was just an idea, and I'm certain it has its weak points. If this gets delayed once again from 2008, I think its almost certain we wont be seeing high speed rail here for at least the next 40 years. Its sad really, but how else can you deal with people, politics, and the such.
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  #293  
Old Posted May 25, 2007, 12:44 AM
travis bickle travis bickle is offline
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Quote:
usually offerering resistance to anything that doesnt benefit us
That's just not true. The California stem cell initiative was overwhelmingly passed by residents of all regions and greatly benefits the Bay Area to an acutely disproportionate degree. Your attitude is common for Bay Area residents because you've so often been on the winning side of the equation that when anyone disagrees you consider it parochial.

You can only expect to be able to have all of us pay for your benefit so many times and this isn't one of those times.

If you want this passed, get San Diego and Sacramento included in the first phase or kiss our hopes for HSR in California good-bye.
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  #294  
Old Posted May 25, 2007, 1:04 AM
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Reminiscence Reminiscence is offline
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Originally Posted by travis bickle View Post
That's just not true. The California stem cell initiative was overwhelmingly passed by residents of all regions and greatly benefits the Bay Area to an acutely disproportionate degree. Your attitude is common for Bay Area residents because you've so often been on the winning side of the equation that when anyone disagrees you consider it parochial.

You can only expect to be able to have all of us pay for your benefit so many times and this isn't one of those times.

If you want this passed, get San Diego and Sacramento included in the first phase or kiss our hopes for HSR in California good-bye.
I personally felt the stem cell initiative was best suited to be in the Bay Area as we had much of what was needed, and we had plans for expansion such as UCSF Mission Bay and such, but thats neither here nor there with CAHSR.

To assume that my attitude is common for Bay Area residents is a false statement that should not be blown way out of proportion. As I said earlier, its easy to say I'm biased, and I realize that. Besides, the first phase is not about only benefiting the Bay Area, but Los Angeles as well.

As I also said, I support high speed rail in San Diego and Sacramento. However, I think this is about being smart, the two most populous areas in the state clearly must be a part of this phase. I say, go with the cheapest option. If that means building it first in SD and Sac, then so be it. Have they by chance concidered what I said previously?
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  #295  
Old Posted May 25, 2007, 2:30 AM
DJM19 DJM19 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by travis bickle View Post
That's just not true. The California stem cell initiative was overwhelmingly passed by residents of all regions and greatly benefits the Bay Area to an acutely disproportionate degree. Your attitude is common for Bay Area residents because you've so often been on the winning side of the equation that when anyone disagrees you consider it parochial.

You can only expect to be able to have all of us pay for your benefit so many times and this isn't one of those times.

If you want this passed, get San Diego and Sacramento included in the first phase or kiss our hopes for HSR in California good-bye.
But once again, it just made sense to have the HQ in SF. Its COMMON SENSE. Thats what the SF-LA phase is.

You want Sac and SD as the first phase, that means there would only be ONE phase, clearly never happening, and not practical at all.
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  #296  
Old Posted May 25, 2007, 2:31 AM
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Again, if the first phase is built without Sacramento, exactly how would a Sacramentan get to LA via a train?

Where would be the closest HSR station be from Sacramento?

Where are the facts showing how much it would cost to build to Sacamento.

It seems so clear that bay area folks dont give a danm when and if HSR goes to Sacramento. As far as they are concerned we might as well be Crescent City.

The Capital City will be completely isolated from both the bay area, central valley, LA, Orange county and San Diego regarding this system.

Sacramento will be living in the transportation dark ages, while we pay for the rest of Californians to enjoy the comforts and convience of HSR.

GAWD this pisses me off to know end. I was a huge supporter of HSR until this insane decision was made.

Sacramentans get on board; this is huge!

If Phase I is built without Sac; it will put Sac at huge disadvantage economically and culturally.
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  #297  
Old Posted May 25, 2007, 2:52 AM
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Sorry to belabor this point.

But, when I-5 was first built, Sacramento was left out of the loop back then. You could not travel on I-5 from Sacramento to LA. There was a huge gap between Sacramento and Stockton; it took them 15 plus years to fill the gap.

Fortunately, though, they did build the I-5 freeway from Downtown Sac to its southern limits from the get go.

This HSR Phase I proposal is similar to the I-5 project but with a much larger NEGATIVE impact on Sacramento.
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  #298  
Old Posted May 25, 2007, 3:01 AM
nequidnimis nequidnimis is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BrianSac View Post
Again, if the first phase is built without Sacramento, exactly how would a Sacramentan get to LA via a train?

Where would be the closest HSR station be from Sacramento?

Where are the facts showing how much it would cost to build to Sacamento.

It seems so clear that bay area folks dont give a danm when and if HSR goes to Sacramento. As far as they are concerned we might as well be Crescent City.

The Capital City will be completely isolated from both the bay area, central valley, LA, Orange county and San Diego regarding this system.

Sacramento will be living in the transportation dark ages, while we pay for the rest of Californians to enjoy the comforts and convience of HSR.

GAWD this pisses me off to know end. I was a huge supporter of HSR until this insane decision was made.

Sacramentans get on board; this is huge!

If Phase I is built without Sac; it will put Sac at huge disadvantage economically and culturally.
It looks like you missed my previous post

Even if the first phase of HSR does not go all the way to Sacramento, you would stiill have direct rail service to LA from Sacramento, with trains traveling at conventional speeds between Sacramento and somewhere north of Merced, and high speed the rest of the way. That's the advantage of
conventional rail high speed as opposed to maglev. And that's definitely how the french TGV operates: the TGV trains travel at high speed where there's a high speed line, but go many more places.
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  #299  
Old Posted May 25, 2007, 3:11 AM
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Originally Posted by BrianSac View Post
Why do you expect Sacramentans to foot the bill, when they can't even use it from the own city? The Capital City, no less.

How are we expected to get to LA....take amtrak to Fresno and tranfer to HSR? How are we expected to connect to the bay area...Amtrak? That totally sucks!!!

Sacramento will be stuck with Amtrak to both the bay area and LA for decades while the the bay area, fresno, and LA are all connected by HSR; that really really pisses me off!
Yes, we all will pay for it... whether you're from Sacramento or Yreka or El Centro.

The project, if it is to occur, would be the largest publics works project in the history of California. It will take several years to build. If done at once, it would overwhelm the labor supply and raw materials. It could not be built in a single phase... certainly logical people realize that! Rome was not built in a day!

When eating your Thanksgiving Day dinner.... you do it one bite at a time. And sometimes you do it in a couple settings.

I predict that before the first train runs.... the legs to San Diego and Sacramento will already be under construction. And, additional legs not currenlty on drawing boards will be discussed.

This argument... if it is meant to derail CHSR.... it will fail.
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  #300  
Old Posted May 25, 2007, 3:15 AM
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Reminiscence Reminiscence is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BrianSac View Post
Again, if the first phase is built without Sacramento, exactly how would a Sacramentan get to LA via a train?

Where would be the closest HSR station be from Sacramento?

Where are the facts showing how much it would cost to build to Sacamento.

It seems so clear that bay area folks dont give a danm when and if HSR goes to Sacramento. As far as they are concerned we might as well be Crescent City.

The Capital City will be completely isolated from both the bay area, central valley, LA, Orange county and San Diego regarding this system.

Sacramento will be living in the transportation dark ages, while we pay for the rest of Californians to enjoy the comforts and convience of HSR.

GAWD this pisses me off to know end. I was a huge supporter of HSR until this insane decision was made.

Sacramentans get on board; this is huge!

If Phase I is built without Sac; it will put Sac at huge disadvantage economically and culturally.
-- How about what we have now, the Capitol Corridor to the Bay Area, then HSR to LA?

-- I suppose that depends on the route allignment chosen. It could be the Bay Area, or a city in the Central Valley like Stockton perhaps.

-- The 2004 estimate of 30 Billion for the entire system looks to be about 60 Billion to me right now. Just an estimate, but I'm being somewhat realistic

-- We dont care if Sacramento gets HSR? Of course we do. Granted, not everyone does, but its not right to say that we dont care either. The Capitol Corridor as it is now is third in number of riders after only the Northeast Corridor and the Pacific Surfliner lines. Clearly, there is ridership between our two areas (Poor Crescent City, why is everyone picking on them? )

-- In regards to the first phase, yes, Sacramento will not be connected to those areas. It seems to me that its more of a connection between Northern California and Southern California for now. A true dark age would be if Sacramento had no connection with the rest of the state at all. Thats not really the case though, but I feel a lack of investment will doom the project alltogether, and the governor's 1 Million just to keep it alive is not really helping the cause.
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