SW Ring Road Debate

[Jack Doe]

Originally Posted by Vascilli

I propose a tunnel.

Fine with me. Are you going to pay for it?

[para transit fellow]

i recall how the residents of eagle ridge went ballistic back when the GOplan was talking about upgrades to 14 street.

The neighbourhood is at a disadvantage however. There are no sidewalks for their domestic staff to walk from the bus stop on....

[chenmau]

The Tsuu Tina route would allow for a bigger road, and at higher speeds, without damaging the Weaselhead. But I don't want to be held ransom to the Tsuu Tina's internal struggles. I think the province and the band should quickly and quietly get a deal done.

IIRC, the Tsuu Tina route would allow for the band to be able to develop commercial land between the ring road and the casino. This would also greatly benefit the SW. It would be great to have a larger Walmart, Superstore, etc on that land, as the nearest Walmart and Superstores are far to small to service the SW properly. The Walmart on Bow Trail could then be demolished and we could see more some bigger density on that site.

[Bassic Lab]

Originally Posted by Jack Doe

Regarding: turning 14 St SW into a freeway.

I live in the land of kings a 1/2 east of 14th Street SW. I would dearly love to see 14 St turned into a freeway. I have always regarded 14 St as being basicly an extension of Crowchild Trail.

As to it being a barrier between communities, it is, and has been, a barrier for the last 40 years. Turning it into a freeway isn't going to change that and actually might make it more pedestrian-friendly as thru-traffic will now be separated from pedestrian movements.

Regarding: Expropriation of houses to expand 14 St to a freeway.

14 St/Anderson Rd - ROW protected, no expropriation necessary.

14 St/Southland Dr - ROW protected, requirements have changed since the 70's, some expropriation necessary in the SW quadrant (5-10 houses?).

14 St/90 Av - No Expropriation necessary.

14 St/Heritage Dr - No Expropriation necessary* (See 75 Av).

14 St/75 Av - This is where the problem is. The current plan is for Eagle Ridge Dr to be extended southward to connect to Heritage Dr. The houses to the east of Eagle Ridge Dr would be acquired and demolished. Eagle Ridge Dr would essentially become a service road between Heritage Dr and Rockyview Hospital.


Eagle Ridge is the problem to any expansion of 14th St. There is an anonymous cabal that has been most successful at blocking any expansion of 14th St against the wishes of the majority of the people who live, work, and drive, in this area of Calgary.

As far as I'm concerned, you could bulldoze this entire self-centered elitist community and I wouldn't shed a tear. They can rebuild out in Springbank where they belong.

Do you have a link to this? As I understood the plan it would have required extensive expropriation around most of the interchanges.

[Calgarian]

Originally Posted by ggopher

Back to the topic of a Ring Road in Calgary.

I think we clearly do need a complete ring road, especially the SW portion.

The 37th street option is a stop gap measure at best, the ultimate design of the ring road called for a 16 lane freeway, which we will need eventually. I think it is time that we start thinking long term. The goal of Plan It Calgary was to set out a long-term direction for sustainable growth to accommodate another 1.3 million people over the next 60 years, and that is where we need to focus. Calgary with a total population of over 2 million people, and sorry no ammount of busses or LRT lines is going to solve all of our traffic problems.

The best option is to go back to the Natives. But we need to clear up a few issues:
-The natives and their council need to get on the same page
-The province needs to secure the land BEFORE they try including it in any deal.

The natives will not accept any deal that contains the words IF and MAYBE. And given the past history, who can blame them for that.

Hopefully cooler heads will prevail and we can work out a deal for the long term.

This was my understanding as well. The Provincial and Federal governments promised to "try" to get them the land, but never actually guaranteed it. I think we can forgive anyone of aboriginal decent for being a bit wary of promises by the government because they have been screwed over and jerked around for as long as they can remember.

[freeweed]

Originally Posted by Calgarian

This was my understanding as well. The Provincial and Federal governments promised to "try" to get them the land, but never actually guaranteed it. I think we can forgive anyone of aboriginal decent for being a bit wary of promises by the government because they have been screwed over and jerked around for as long as they can remember.

True, which is why I'm astounded these deals would even bother. Offer a bunch of money, or land, or both - done. None of this "future considerations" BS.

I remember the deal being pretty rich in the cash department, but I have no idea how large the reserve population actually is. How much money would each person received with the initial offer?

[YYCguys]

Originally Posted by freeweed

True, which is why I'm astounded these deals would even bother. Offer a bunch of money, or land, or both - done. None of this "future considerations" BS.

I remember the deal being pretty rich in the cash department, but I have no idea how large the reserve population actually is. How much money would each person received with the initial offer?

Would individuals receive a piece of the pie or would the money be given to the Band Council to dole out to projects, etc? This in addition to the tens of thousands that each Band member receives on their 18th birthday already and the thousands of dollars that each Band member receives at Christmas? (information given to me by a friend who works in a bank that cashes a lot of these "bonus" checks).

[kw5150]

Originally Posted by Rise_of_the_West

Living in the west end of Calgary near the affected area for most of my life i think a few things are needed before any road option is considered. First of all Crowchild and access to downtown from the west has to be improved. Even as it is now its backed up badly every day. Add all the commuters from the deep SW onto this and you have total gridlock.

As for the option I prefer, I would like to see a tunnel (~1.8km long) under the resivoir connecting directly to Crowchild from 37th Street. This would have the least enviromental impact. It is essential in my opinion that this tunnel have HOV lanes to allow better transit service to the area.

I dont really know of any other tunnels like that in all of canada and it is maybe a pipe dream? We need to re-open talks and come up with a fair deal.

[fusili]

I say scrap the SWRR altogether unless a deal can be worked out with Tsuu T'ina. Upgrade 14th street up to Glenmore, put in transit lanes either way for BRTs, and then put a lane reversal on Elbow Drive north of Glenmore for 2 lanes north bound, one transit lane northbound and one shared lane southbound (morning commute). I think that could work.

[Calgarian]

Originally Posted by fusili

I say scrap the SWRR altogether unless a deal can be worked out with Tsuu T'ina. Upgrade 14th street up to Glenmore, put in transit lanes either way for BRTs, and then put a lane reversal on Elbow Drive north of Glenmore for 2 lanes north bound, one transit lane northbound and one shared lane southbound (morning commute). I think that could work.

THe communities along Elbow would fight that tooth and nail, those whiners somehow managed to get a large portion of that road a 40km/h speed limit.

[Mazrim]

Originally Posted by Bassic Lab

Do you have a link to this? As I understood the plan it would have required extensive expropriation around most of the interchanges.

A 6-lane expressway (14th Street will never be a freeway) with interchanges by today's road design standards would require more land than is currently available. If we built them to standards from 30-40 years ago? Maybe.

I'm pretty sure I've gone to great detail about my thoughts on the SWRR in the Stoney Trail thread, but in short...my thought is that we have to build something, be it 37th Street ROW or Tsuu T'ina Land. I used to live in Signal Hill, and the commute to the deep south every day was excruciating. I moved out of the SW for a better commute to work, it was that simple. I'm glad to be rid of driving that regularly, but I still think it's a necessary part of the Calgary road system that needs to be built.

Long version: In terms of looking at roads like Crowchild instead of the SWRR, it's not just downtown commuters that will benefit from network upgrades. There is a large percentage of people who are going everywhere BUT downtown from the SW, and being bottlenecked onto only a few possible routes around the Glenmore Resevoir and Fish Creek Park is what kills any chance of current network upgrades solving the problem. You're still trying to funnel all that traffic through the same small area. Opening up more arteries through the area will spread out the load, making roads even with no upgrades smoother.

(As a side note, I would have taken transit when I lived in Signal Hill if it didn't increase my commute one way from 40 minutes to 2.5 hours!)

The SW Ring Road is the solution to continually looking at "Add more lanes to Macleod!" and "Add more lanes to Glenmore!", which aren't very feasible. Both are at their ROW limits already, and more lanes doesn't make sense compared to a new route.

It is my belief that many people in the NW/NE really don't think the SWRR is needed because they don't regularly see the congestion we get daily.

[freeweed]

Originally Posted by Mazrim

It is my belief that many people in the NW/NE really don't think the SWRR is needed because they don't regularly see the congestion we get daily.

Half true. Count me as someone in the NW who thinks this city desperately needs the SW Ring Road, and NOW. I drive all over the city on a regular basis and the SW is absolutely the worst in terms of traffic, hands down. It's the reason I specifically avoided the SW when trying to pick place to live here.

You're right in that I don't regularly see the congestion (by choice). I've always thought that the people who complain about traffic the most in Calgary must come from the SW. I find traffic here to be a joke compared to most cities I've driven - a joke in that it's never really congested - except 2 things: the SW when the sun is above the horizon, and Deerfoot during rush hour. So long as I avoid those 2 scenarios, I'm just about never stuck in traffic other than the worst blizzard of the year.

I want the SW Ring Road built for the same reason I want the SELRT built. I may never use either, certainly not regularly. But I'm not a selfish asshole who only wants stuff built in MY part of town. I want to bring the very pleasant driving and transit experience that I have to every corner of this city.

[Oliver Klozov]

Originally Posted by Calgarian

This was my understanding as well. The Provincial and Federal governments promised to "try" to get them the land, but never actually guaranteed it. I think we can forgive anyone of aboriginal decent for being a bit wary of promises by the government because they have been screwed over and jerked around for as long as they can remember.

That wasn't my understanding of it. The province owns the land. The Copithornes just have a grazing lease. The longest any of those are/were is 20 years. They are not automatically renewable. If the lessee wants to renew they have first right to do so before it is offered to anyone else but the province can change the land designation so that it isn't offered at all. They are not obligated to continue the grazing lease if they want the land for a different purpose. Therefore, there was no problem with the province guaranteeing that they could secure the land.

The only thing that wasn't guaranteed was that the federal government would actually allow the land to become part of the reserve. It was my understanding that they had no problem with it but they had to have an actual application to deal with before they could act on it.

I believe the real reason the natives rejected the deal is simply they think they can just keep holding out for more. Re-opening negotiations is a complete waste of time; a deal will never get passed without changing something else like cutting off access to the casino.

[fusili]

Originally Posted by Mazrim

I used to live in Signal Hill, and the commute to the deep south every day was excruciating. I moved out of the SW for a better commute to work, it was that simple. I'm glad to be rid of driving that regularly, but I still think it's a necessary part of the Calgary road system that needs to be built.

Great (unintentional) point.

Why did you live in Signal Hill if you worked in the deep south? And why would you expect a speedy commute if you did so?

Residential location choices have a huge impact on travel. What many people fail to realize is that residential relocation is used as a transportation strategy by many people. How did you handle a long commute? You moved.

But what would happen if we built the SW Ring Road. All of a sudden people living in Royal Oak (no offense to anyone here) can think that working in the deep south and living in Royal Oak is a viable option. The more roads we build, the less people will use housing location as a transportation strategy, and the more they will drive. Roads in many ways act as an induced demand. By building the ring road we are creating traffic. Maybe we are reducing far more traffic than we are creating, but we are definitely creating traffic.

[fusili]

I probably came off as a jackass in that last post. But I think the problem is that the city was approving subdivisions without a clear idea how it would handle traffic in the future and without a guarantee that the ring road would go through. If the city wanted to approve those communities in the SW, it should have made it clear that traffic wasn't going to be great. The problem is most of the people that moved there had no idea what the travel implications of their choice was.

[Me&You]

Originally Posted by fusili

Great (unintentional) point.

Why did you live in Signal Hill if you worked in the deep south? And why would you expect a speedy commute if you did so?

Residential location choices have a huge impact on travel. What many people fail to realize is that residential relocation is used as a transportation strategy by many people. How did you handle a long commute? You moved.

But what would happen if we built the SW Ring Road. All of a sudden people living in Royal Oak (no offense to anyone here) can think that working in the deep south and living in Royal Oak is a viable option. The more roads we build, the less people will use housing location as a transportation strategy, and the more they will drive. Roads in many ways act as an induced demand. By building the ring road we are creating traffic. Maybe we are reducing far more traffic than we are creating, but we are definitely creating traffic.

I thought that reverse commuting was encouraged around these parts? Marzim, by traveling from Signal Hill to the deep south would have generally been traveling against the flow of rush hour traffic. I bet that his commute would have been even worse if he was traveling from the deep south to Signal Hill in the morning (and back at night).

People change jobs, often. I don't think it's fair to expect everyone to just "live close to where you work". There are so many other factors... Spouses working somewhere else, children's schooling, other family obligations, etc... It's never as simple as living closer to work...

[fusili]

Originally Posted by Me&You

I thought that reverse commuting was encouraged around these parts? Marzim, by traveling from Signal Hill to the deep south would have generally been traveling against the flow of rush hour traffic. I bet that his commute would have been even worse if he was traveling from the deep south to Signal Hill in the morning (and back at night).

People change jobs, often. I don't think it's fair to expect everyone to just "live close to where you work". There are so many other factors... Spouses working somewhere else, children's schooling, other family obligations, etc... It's never as simple as living closer to work...

Another good point. People take many, many things into consideration when deciding where to live and often they change jobs more than they change houses. Which is why concentrated areas of employment connected to rapid transit (and connected to each other) is how we need to handle development in our city.

[Bassic Lab]

Originally Posted by Mazrim

A 6-lane expressway (14th Street will never be a freeway) with interchanges by today's road design standards would require more land than is currently available. If we built them to standards from 30-40 years ago? Maybe.

I'm pretty sure I've gone to great detail about my thoughts on the SWRR in the Stoney Trail thread, but in short...my thought is that we have to build something, be it 37th Street ROW or Tsuu T'ina Land. I used to live in Signal Hill, and the commute to the deep south every day was excruciating. I moved out of the SW for a better commute to work, it was that simple. I'm glad to be rid of driving that regularly, but I still think it's a necessary part of the Calgary road system that needs to be built.

Long version: In terms of looking at roads like Crowchild instead of the SWRR, it's not just downtown commuters that will benefit from network upgrades. There is a large percentage of people who are going everywhere BUT downtown from the SW, and being bottlenecked onto only a few possible routes around the Glenmore Resevoir and Fish Creek Park is what kills any chance of current network upgrades solving the problem. You're still trying to funnel all that traffic through the same small area. Opening up more arteries through the area will spread out the load, making roads even with no upgrades smoother.

(As a side note, I would have taken transit when I lived in Signal Hill if it didn't increase my commute one way from 40 minutes to 2.5 hours!)

The SW Ring Road is the solution to continually looking at "Add more lanes to Macleod!" and "Add more lanes to Glenmore!", which aren't very feasible. Both are at their ROW limits already, and more lanes doesn't make sense compared to a new route.

It is my belief that many people in the NW/NE really don't think the SWRR is needed because they don't regularly see the congestion we get daily.

I'm not sure how a six lane expressway with interchanges isn't a freeway but I suppose semantics don't really matter. I grew up in Haysboro and remember the opposition to upgrading 14th St that was there. I might not remember the plans perfectly and a lot of the opposition might not have realized just what the upgrade entailed so if I'm wrong I would like to see the plans. That said, I cannot see how expropriation would not be required, no matter what standard the interchanges are built to. The city would need land for the detour roads, land for changing the grade, and land for ramps. The GE5 project was about as tight as possible and it used a fair amount of land during construction; land that does not exist around intersections like 14th and 90th.

[Bassic Lab]

Originally Posted by Calgarian

THe communities along Elbow would fight that tooth and nail, those whiners somehow managed to get a large portion of that road a 40km/h speed limit.

Nothing quite makes me feel like a class warrior like the 40 km/h speed limit on Elbow, and don't get me started on the world's longest playground zone, but even I would likely fight it tooth and nail. I would hate to be behind someone turning left across three lanes of traffic at an unsignalized intersection in the only southbound lane. It would be a nightmare for cars and transit, the #3 bus has great headways and is busy in both directions. If left turns were banned it would also be a nighmare as the only effective way to get around a lot of communities would be taken away.

[MonctonGoldenFlames]

Originally Posted by Calgarian

THe communities along Elbow would fight that tooth and nail, those whiners somehow managed to get a large portion of that road a 40km/h speed limit.

it's amazing what money can do!