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  #41  
Old Posted Mar 25, 2021, 7:09 PM
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Originally Posted by fonzi View Post
Early native civilizations also had to abandon the area when sudden, and entirely natural, changes in climate occurred.

An actual dry river bed filled with water from another river far away, is only positive in an engineering sense, and should be concerning otherwise. Those "wetlands" are just way to say puddles, in the same riverbed. Also, you are conveniently forgetting all the actual food production farther down the Gila watershed...and funny how you dismiss alfalfa as seemingly unimportant, when it's feeds the dairy cattle....for local products!! Semi conductor manufacturing, and cities need a surplus of food to exist, in case you forgot.
Yes, those civilizations abandoned the area, they also didn't have water resource management.

If you want to call these puddles, then OK. https://www.phoenix.gov/parks/trails...storation-area
https://www.phoenix.gov/waterservices/tresrios

What are you talking about Re: alfalfa/dairy? Where are there any dairy and cattle yards around Phoenix any more (and do you even live in Arizona)? The majority of all have long since left the region, especially near Phoenix where these semiconductor plants and the growth is concentrated. So, basically you're saying it's a necessity to grow alfalfa here to ship to cattle out of state? There's alfalfa being grown everywhere and can be had from almost anywhere. Food to support manufacturing and the City in general can be (and obviously is) brought in from out of state, like nearly every city.

If AZ loses some ag economy and gains incredible manufacturing, I'd say that's a positive. The water use is likely just a wash. I'm not saying Arizona and Phoenix can grow to infinity forever, and I sincerely hope it doesn't, but there is capacity to support more growth. These large semi-conductor plants and associated growth is a large positive for Phoenix/Arizona.
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  #42  
Old Posted Mar 25, 2021, 9:22 PM
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Agreed that Arizona is completely unsustainable as a population center. This applies to the entire southwest really, it will collapse eventually.
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  #43  
Old Posted Mar 25, 2021, 9:33 PM
fonzi fonzi is offline
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Originally Posted by PHX31 View Post
Yes, those civilizations abandoned the area, they also didn't have water resource management.

If you want to call these puddles, then OK. https://www.phoenix.gov/parks/trails...storation-area
https://www.phoenix.gov/waterservices/tresrios

What are you talking about Re: alfalfa/dairy? Where are there any dairy and cattle yards around Phoenix any more (and do you even live in Arizona)? The majority of all have long since left the region, especially near Phoenix where these semiconductor plants and the growth is concentrated. So, basically you're saying it's a necessity to grow alfalfa here to ship to cattle out of state? There's alfalfa being grown everywhere and can be had from almost anywhere. Food to support manufacturing and the City in general can be (and obviously is) brought in from out of state, like nearly every city.

If AZ loses some ag economy and gains incredible manufacturing, I'd say that's a positive. The water use is likely just a wash. I'm not saying Arizona and Phoenix can grow to infinity forever, and I sincerely hope it doesn't, but there is capacity to support more growth. These large semi-conductor plants and associated growth is a large positive for Phoenix/Arizona.
Your description of a wetland is just as deceiving as the chamber of commerce type description you linked....it's a dry river bed that happens to have some occasional runoff and ground seepage. ...and yes, I live in AZ and lived in the valley for over 15 years until I was granted a reprieve from the powers that be. I suppose the Scottsdale greenbelt is natural oasis, by your barometer, but just happens to need constant sprinkler systems watering, just for aesthetics.

Cities only can exist if there is a surplus of food, just like civilization itself. Yes, there is dairy production in AZ and yes, you need alfalfa or some other staple feed to make that happen. Phoenix is already vulnerable with water and making the distance food has to come ever longer is something that needs to be taken seriously, if last year didn't teach you that, then I won't convince you here on this forum.

Industry is vital for a city to grow and flourish, but you keep missing the point that, in Phoenix, having to compromise ag for growth, isn't feasible or viable. Most other cities of note don't have such compromises.
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  #44  
Old Posted Mar 25, 2021, 9:36 PM
bossabreezes bossabreezes is offline
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Originally Posted by The North One View Post
Agreed that Arizona is completely unsustainable as a population center. This applies to the entire southwest really, it will collapse eventually.
Imagine a Texas style power outage during summer in Phoenix. That would surely leave multiple thousand people dead in a short time frame.

Maybe it's unlikely at this current moment but to think it's not possible or even somewhat likely is pulling wool over your eyes.
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  #45  
Old Posted Mar 25, 2021, 9:38 PM
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Originally Posted by edale View Post
This. It is hubris plain and simple. I get frustrated with this attitude of many people in the Southwest, including Southern California, who seem to want all the benefits of a wet environment, without the actual rain. They want to see grass and trees everywhere, fountains, 'lakes', etc. in places where it rains like 10 days a year.

You should hear the conversations I've heard from tree advocates in Los Angeles. They really think Los Angeles should be a city in a forest (see Hancock Park for their vision), when it's in a semi-arid environment. Look at historical photos of Los Angeles before it was all developed, and see how many trees were there. Not many. Trees clustered around existing water resources, which is the pattern you see in undeveloped canyon areas. But the flat lands of the LA basin and valleys were basically grass/dirt, with some shrubs scattered around-- the chaparral landscape. But that doesn't stop the advocates here from demanding a robust 'urban forest' lol. It's ludicrous.

The midwest and east coast can't import the sun or warm winter temperatures, but residents of the arid west import water to create these artificial environments. And we wonder why the sunbelt grows while the rust belt declines.

??

Where I live in South Pas, it's all about xeriscaping and native plants.
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  #46  
Old Posted Mar 25, 2021, 9:39 PM
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Originally Posted by jbermingham123 View Post
Soon-to-be-breaking news:

-Beijing requests to build a new consolate in Phoenix: "The Chinese people have always had a very special connection to.. *checks notes* ..Arizona," a CCP spokesperson says

-Huawei proposes deal to provide 5G internet access to the new semiconductor plants at below market value: "nah we won't record any of their data.. we promise" they said

-Chinese tourism in Phoenix doubles in the span of a single year: "Its very strange, they all seem to be from beijing and nowhere else," says local customs official

-Chinese space agency launches new "climate research" satellite into geostationary orbit at Arizona's longitude: "The mojave desert is like super neat, with a lot of very nice sand and rocks and such. Definitely not looking at anything other than the desert" the agency says.
Lmao.
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  #47  
Old Posted Mar 25, 2021, 9:40 PM
bossabreezes bossabreezes is offline
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Originally Posted by sopas ej View Post
??

Where I live in South Pas, it's all about xeriscaping and native plants.
Thats awesome and the way it should be.

However take a drive around Mid City all the way to Santa Monica and you'll see nothing but green lawns and even Redwoods planted in yards. Redwoods are extremely water dependent and one of the worst things to plant in LA, yet they're everywhere. Theres a reason they only grow where there is intense summer fog, ie Northern California, it supplements the lack of rain. SoCal doesn't have enough fog for them.
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  #48  
Old Posted Mar 25, 2021, 9:42 PM
Camelback Camelback is offline
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Originally Posted by bossabreezes View Post
Imagine a Texas style power outage during summer in Phoenix. That would surely leave multiple thousand people dead in a short time frame.

Maybe it's unlikely at this current moment but to think it's not possible or even somewhat likely is pulling wool over your eyes.
A winter polar vortex event in Texas...compared to the heat of the summer in Arizona...

Did you think about anything before posting this? Arizona is well prepared for electrical surges. Arizona usually exports energy to surrounding states during peak demand.

Google: "Palo Verde Nuclear Plant".
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palo_V...rating_Station
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  #49  
Old Posted Mar 25, 2021, 9:44 PM
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^^Oh right, so nothing can ever go wrong in Arizona. Good to know, in that case, absolutely Arizona is the new Texas. Hopefully every square inch of the state is developed so the general population can live under the utopian Arizona sun. Almost like New York, that can never experience a blackout due to its perfect system. Oh, wait...
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  #50  
Old Posted Mar 25, 2021, 9:52 PM
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Originally Posted by sopas ej View Post
??

Where I live in South Pas, it's all about xeriscaping and native plants.
South Pasadena is nothing of the sort. It's basically a lush garden in an arid place. I'm not hating, I love it. It's what makes the place so desirable.
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  #51  
Old Posted Mar 25, 2021, 9:55 PM
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Originally Posted by bossabreezes View Post
^^Oh right, so nothing can ever go wrong in Arizona. Good to know, in that case, absolutely Arizona is the new Texas. Hopefully every square inch of the state is developed so the general population can live under the utopian Arizona sun. Almost like New York, that can never experience a blackout due to its perfect system. Oh, wait...
Sure a lot can go wrong in Arizona as is the case in every single other region in the US.

I would hope that every square inch isn't developed and fortunately that isn't possible (you would know this if you lived in the region).
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  #52  
Old Posted Mar 25, 2021, 9:57 PM
bossabreezes bossabreezes is offline
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Originally Posted by Camelback View Post
Sure a lot can go wrong in Arizona as is the case in every single other region in the US.
Right, so we actually agree. If you read my previous post carefully, I said it wasn't likely at current time, but is possible. And if it happened, yes, there would be a lot of dead people.
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  #53  
Old Posted Mar 25, 2021, 10:06 PM
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Originally Posted by bossabreezes View Post
Right, so we actually agree. If you read my previous post carefully, I said it wasn't likely at current time, but is possible. And if it happened, yes, there would be a lot of dead people.
I agree that catastrophic events happen to cities. If that is what we're worried about then Phoenix is probably one of the least likely cities to experience this.

There are other cities at risk from drought in the US than Phoenix. You should do some research.
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  #54  
Old Posted Mar 25, 2021, 10:09 PM
bossabreezes bossabreezes is offline
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Originally Posted by Camelback View Post
I agree that catastrophic events happen to cities. If that is what we're worried about then Phoenix is probably one of the least likely cities to experience this.

There are other cities at risk from drought in the US than Phoenix. You should do some research.

I didn't talk about drought being a problem for Phoenix at the current moment though anywhere. I mentioned that the SW is getting dryer, not wetter. That's a fact, and mentioned it would be a problem in the future- not right now.

I'm not trying to offend you, just clarifying what I said because I think it's been misconstrued.
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  #55  
Old Posted Mar 25, 2021, 10:12 PM
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Originally Posted by bossabreezes View Post

I didn't talk about drought being a problem for Phoenix at the current moment though anywhere. I mentioned that the SW is getting dryer, not wetter. That's a fact, and mentioned it would be a problem in the future- not right now.

I'm not trying to offend you, just clarifying what I said because I think it's been misconstrued.
It is a fact that it is getting dryer, but remember in 1983 when Lake Mead reached it's all time high.

Remember in 1993 when there was concern that Roosevelt Dam might collapse?

Boom and bust economic/hydrology cycle is real in the West. You would know this if you lived here.
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  #56  
Old Posted Mar 25, 2021, 10:15 PM
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It is a fact that it is getting dryer, but remember in 1983 when Lake Mead reached it's all time high.
Oh my gosh I remember that. Winter '82-'83. That was my 7th grade year, and I remember that was a heavy El Niño we had that winter. I loved it because it rained a lot, and I hated PE, and when it rained, we didn't have PE.
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  #57  
Old Posted Mar 25, 2021, 10:18 PM
Obadno Obadno is offline
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Originally Posted by James Bond Agent 007 View Post
It is 100% insane to have so much development in a desert.
How is it more insane than on Landfill? In Prairie or forest or on priceless water front or in swamps?

Why is the desert some special biome where its "insane" to have development??? I never understood this. Humanities first cities exist in the exact climate as Phoenix, a shallow arid river valley with seasonal flood and rainy periods.

People have been farming in the Phoenix area for literally thousands of years.
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  #58  
Old Posted Mar 25, 2021, 10:20 PM
Obadno Obadno is offline
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Originally Posted by James Bond Agent 007 View Post
It's not the energy that makes me say that, it's the water. Civilization requires water. If you have to build extensive public works to ship in water from far away, and pump large quantities of it from underground just to supply millions of people in a city, then that tells you the location of that city isn't a terribly good idea.

Here in KC we get our water from the Missouri River, which basically never gets short of water and runs right through the city, and we get tons of rain. We basically have infinite supplies of water right at our doorsteop. THAT is a good place to put a big city.
Phoenix does just fine with water, do not project California water Problems aon Arizona they are not even close to the same thing.
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  #59  
Old Posted Mar 25, 2021, 10:24 PM
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Originally Posted by sopas ej View Post
Oh my gosh I remember that. Winter '82-'83. That was my 7th grade year, and I remember that was a heavy El Niño we had that winter. I loved it because it rained a lot, and I hated PE, and when it rained, we didn't have PE.
I'm a bit younger than you, I had PE in 92/93 and it was the same thing. I remember "lining up" in gym shorts in the rain. That was a huge El Niño year. Also 97/98 was a big El Niño year. Recently 2017/18 and again in 18/19 were heavy.
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  #60  
Old Posted Mar 25, 2021, 10:31 PM
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Originally Posted by fonzi View Post
Your description of a wetland is just as deceiving as the chamber of commerce type description you linked....it's a dry river bed that happens to have some occasional runoff and ground seepage. ...and yes, I live in AZ and lived in the valley for over 15 years until I was granted a reprieve from the powers that be. I suppose the Scottsdale greenbelt is natural oasis, by your barometer, but just happens to need constant sprinkler systems watering, just for aesthetics.

Cities only can exist if there is a surplus of food, just like civilization itself. Yes, there is dairy production in AZ and yes, you need alfalfa or some other staple feed to make that happen. Phoenix is already vulnerable with water and making the distance food has to come ever longer is something that needs to be taken seriously, if last year didn't teach you that, then I won't convince you here on this forum.

Industry is vital for a city to grow and flourish, but you keep missing the point that, in Phoenix, having to compromise ag for growth, isn't feasible or viable. Most other cities of note don't have such compromises.
You can literally just look at an aerial and see several significant areas along the Salt River through the metro area that are more than a dry river bed with a few puddles. Here I'll help: 33.421961, -112.074829 No it's not a flowing river and it's not the lush everglades, but come on. The Scottsdale Greenbelt (Indian Bend Wash) is the exact opposite of what I'm talking about and not on the Salt River. Even if these areas are fed by wastewater treatment plant effluence, um, so? A lot of water use (not drinking) in Arizona is from this, as is groundwater recharge. Isn't that good/sustainable? You pointed out a couple spots of "bad", there are many "good".

I never knew every City in the country was perfectly self sufficient with agriculture to provide for their current and future growth. I mean, we might as well shut down the train lines and highways, we don't and can't rely on transportation and logistics.

The oceans will rise or a super volcano or mega earthquake will occur wiping out several other major cities before so little rain falls in the W/SW that our desert civilizations will end. Every place is vulnerable in one way or the other. The various posts singling out the southwest as unsustainable are so tired and pop up nearly every single time some good news gets posted of Phoenix or Arizona that likely just makes other posters jealous.
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