Sim-Southwest: Our Visionary Concepts Thread - Page 23

hrivas · #**441** Posted **Dec 10, 2011, 11:06 PM**

and how do you send people dropbox download links?
i didn't know you could do that.

HooverDam · #**442** Posted **Dec 10, 2011, 11:13 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by hrivas

and how do you send people dropbox download links?
i didn't know you could do that.

Put it in your public folder on your computer. Then (well this is how it goes on a Mac anyhow, not sure about a PC) Right click and a bunch of Options come up, one says "DropBox" and it opens a Mini Menu and it says "Make Public Link" or some such thing, you just copy and paste that link.

Did those links that I posted work btw?

Quote:

Originally Posted by hrivas

http://vimeo.com/33295172

i saw this the other day.
i have to say. presentation is everything and this was presented very oddly, almost distractingly.
it made it difficult to see what was actually being presented.

Holy shit thats awful. Very flasy presentation and quite slick, but what exactly is the point of "The Canyon"??? To see how much money can't be spent to accomplish nothing? That whole premise is an absolute zero.

What is the "Central Station Cultural Hub"? What does that mean? I HATE stuff like this...it sounds pretty, but what is it for? If you want to do something with the CH 12 building, knock it over! It hides the park from the City and could be valuable space for trees, water features and a real entrance to the park that connects brilliantly with the Central/Roosevelt LRT station.

combusean · #**443** Posted **Dec 11, 2011, 1:14 AM**

The point of the "Canyon" was to tie the park into the transit tunnel underneath. Something *should* be done with that tunnel. I'm not sure of breaking the flat acreage of the park is the way to do it, if that's what's even going on. They wasted a lot of time with seizure-inducing graphics and wireframes in the first 80% of the video instead of giving some cohesive idea of the whole thing.

I would watch it again, but there's no point. The whole thing is an exercise in futility unless they can clue the city into where the $400 million is going to come from to build the stupid thing.

HooverDam · #**444** Posted **Dec 11, 2011, 1:58 AM**

I'm all for using the underground tunnel, but nit at the cost of the park itself. From what I've heard the tunnel was only slightly under built for buses, their mirrors would be clipped off if they drove in there. If thats the cae, it seems there could be easier solutions. Isn't there a model of bus out there that can retract its mirrors? If thats still too wide, what about looking around for narrower buses?? It seems safe to assume that somewhere in Europe or Japan they'd have more slender buses that PHX could use for those routes.

The thing I find frustrating is how the City keeps the public in the dark about the size of the tunnels exactly and how much weight the deck can hold. It seems like they do it intentionally to keep the public in the dark and unable to get control or ownership of the park.

As far asthe funds for the park, I'm not too worried about that. Its only an issue if the park were being built today which doesn't have to be the case. I'd much rather have a great plan thats more long range in nature and can be phased in over time, my PowerPoint mentions a few ways to do that.

Also, I didn't mention it in my PowerPoint and I haven't heard nearly enough talk about the outer park. If the east half of the park continues to be surrounded by dirt lots and surface parking then Hance is doomed. I'd love to see the City partner with the Art Institute of Phx and move their Camus to the Southeast of the park. Like the ASU kids @ Civic Space that would give the park a built in constituency and hustle and bustle. Plus if the Institute designed its buildings right they could have ground floor art galleries that would tie into the roosevelt Arts district and really provide for a wider conected arts area from PAM to Roosevelt Row.

exit2lef · #**445** Posted **Dec 11, 2011, 4:44 AM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by HooverDam

I'm all for using the underground tunnel, but nit at the cost of the park itself. From what I've heard the tunnel was only slightly under built for buses, their mirrors would be clipped off if they drove in there. If thats the cae, it seems there could be easier solutions. Isn't there a model of bus out there that can retract its mirrors? If thats still too wide, what about looking around for narrower buses?? It seems safe to assume that somewhere in Europe or Japan they'd have more slender buses that PHX could use for those routes.

That's probably true, but even with buses of appropriate size, the bus tunnel never really made sense. There are few major employers within walking distance of Hance Park, so most passengers would have to transfer to light rail or local buses to get where they're going. In contrast, most current Valley Metro express and Rapid buses stop not only at Central Station but also near the state government buildings. Those destinations make more sense than a tunnel under Hance Park, situated between Downtown and Midtown but not really in the core of either one.

HooverDam · #**446** Posted **Dec 11, 2011, 1:12 PM**

^^^^^^good points. I can't recall is there a carpool lane through the tunnel? If not maybe the bus way could be opened up as a diamond lane or if there is a carpool lane already maybe it could become a regular lane and put the carpoolers through the unused tunnel.

For whatever reason a lot of the Chance Park talk has become obsessed with that tunnel, I guess there's something about subterranean unused infrastructure that grabs people.

pbenjamin · #**447** Posted **Dec 11, 2011, 6:47 PM**

There is an HOV lane on I-10 that goes through the tunnel.

phxSUNSfan · #**448** Posted **Dec 11, 2011, 7:10 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by pbenjamin

There is an HOV lane on I-10 that goes through the tunnel.

I had to pull over once to change a flat near the fenced off entrance to the tunnel (within the tunnel) and it is pretty wide. A bus would be able to fit in there with no problem. It is wider than a regular freeway lane. I remember when METRO was planning on using the space as a station for the future I-10 light rail...but those plans have changed given that they are planning to run the trains through the Capitol Mall area.

I liked the "transition" design presented in the video above the tunnel entrances of the freeway. The creator of the video gives his team's reasoning for the design of "the Canyon":

"'the Canyon' in our design scheme was to be a flexible space that could house movies in the park as well as provide intimate and transitional spaces as an entry to 'the underground' which could be programmed for multiple venues (example given was an underground car show). We had considered other uses for 'the underground' such as a paint ball facility, yoga, art exhibits, night club, etc. But these are all just ideas. The major reason for 'the Canyon' is to highlight the fact that their is an enormous amount of unused infrastructure (the bus rapid transit lanes) that cost the public "tens of millions of dollars". We wanted to do this to create more dialogue and discussion with the community and city about future possibilities to engage this unused space. So we proposed revaluing this unused space by taking it from freeway and giving it back to the park. Hope this helps you understand our ideas a little better. Thanks for the interest!"

phxSUNSfan · #**449** Posted **Dec 11, 2011, 7:14 PM**

Deleted that post... whoa, that was weird!

HooverDam · #**450** Posted **Dec 11, 2011, 8:15 PM**

That canyon would kill the park even more, not revitalize it. One of Chances biggest issues is that its sunken a bit and hard to see, the canyon makes that worse not better. Also it eliminates the main open space of the park and replaces it with something that's not only costly but nit as multi functional. Other than the idea of subterranean things being kind of cool ut just doesn't make a lot of sense....its focusing too much on the sunk cost of the tunnel and not addressing the parks real problems.

People dont really want to change elevation a lot yet its one of the tennants of bad modern design. Look at all the modern buildings out there with tons of stairs, ramps,escalators,etc leading to nowhere in particular. They sure look neat on a rendering with a swooping 3D camera but fail to get used by people because they're an impedement not a connector.

Leo the Dog · #**451** Posted **Dec 11, 2011, 11:38 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by hrivas

http://vimeo.com/33295172

i saw this the other day.
i have to say. presentation is everything and this was presented very oddly, almost distractingly.
it made it difficult to see what was actually being presented.

Appreciate the hard work done to come up with the vision/video. It's good Phoenix has dreamers and definitely needs more of this!

However, I just don't see any of this happening. This plan is far too grandiose. Phoenix won't even plant winter rye grass during peak park season, what makes anyone think the city will pump millions into infrastructure improvement? Remember the push back from Civic Space Park, and this is a beautiful park in the heart of DT - that works!

The only way Hance Park will see significant change is if there is demand for change from constituents, but this won't happen anytime soon as very few people really live close enough to it to care. There could also be a NIMBYism element against it. ie: better park = more events = more traffic = more pollution = more crime blah blah blah.

HooverDam · #**452** Posted **Dec 11, 2011, 11:57 PM**

^There's unlikely to me much NIMBY-ism form nearby residents, many of them, especially the leaders of the Neighborhood Associations have been involved with the Hance Park visioning stuff. They know they live in an urban area and want the park to be urban, that is to say, used by people. The most often heard model I've heard at those meetings is Millenium Park in Chicago (which no matter what Hance will never be nearly as busy as do to the low density nature of the NW corner of the park), so they're up for it being busy.

The NIMBYs you have to worry about are the people at the Jewish Cultural Center. They were fighting tooth and nail to keep a skate park out of Hance Park because it would bring in 'undesirables'. Their 'vision' was for Hance to be a naturalistic sort of park full of trees but devoid of people, which is not at all what it could ever be, nor should it be.

E: Did anyone try my DropBox links? Or do I have to make a seizure inducing video to get people to look?

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/34057494/Hance%20Park.pptx

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/34057494/Hance_Park.pdf

phxSUNSfan · #**453** Posted **Dec 12, 2011, 4:20 AM**

^^The only way Hance becomes nearly as busy as Millennium is if Evans-Churchill and Roosevelt, especially S. Roosevelt, get development that is very dense. These neighborhoods are full of vacant lots so that is a possibility.

I agree with you Hoover about "the Canyon". I was wondering what the creators were thinking when they designed it and that is why I posted the quote from Joel Carrasco. I don't agree with their vision but I understand it a little more. I also agree that the absence of Nimbyism in this area of town would make it easier to redevelop this park into a great attraction. Like Willo, this neighborhood is not afraid of activity, density and urbanity; reference the positive reaction to the multi-tower development that never happened on Central and McDowell.

Besides the "transitions" from the tunnels over the freeways, another aspect of the proposal I like was the elevated "platforms" that gave the park some angles and changed the topography. This made the grass visible and gave it the park more acreage. Though the money it would take to elevate platforms could be more effectively used by purchasing land that is next to streets and thus extends the park. Purchasing and razing the old Channel 12 building would be great as has been discussed.

HooverDam · #**454** Posted **Dec 12, 2011, 4:34 AM**

^Thanks for reposting his quote here, I'm the one on there asking him about it

I just wanted to get him thinking, use a little Socratic Method. It just doesn't seem like a well thought out idea, I just imagine it being full of sleeping homeless people. In his recent reply he mentions Hance needing one big attraction or something that creates an identity for the park, but the Canyon would be the wrong way to go about that.

About the density, its never going to be hyper dense in that area. Even under the Urban Form code the East side of Hance Park is only zoned as tall as 80-90 feet, and at 218 dwelling units per acre. Thats solid density though and more than enough to keep the park active, though I would've preferred the lots directly adjacent to the park to be zoned up to around 150', but maybe that would've led to land banking...I suppose people can always apply for variances.

They key is thinking of the park almost as 2 halves, the Western half should be more of a recreational, traditional, neighborhood park. Open spaces, football, basketball, playgrounds, etc. The Eastern half if the more densely used urban park with tons of amenities, attractions and 8-ish story buildings flanking it on both the North & South sides.

combusean · #**455** Posted **Dec 12, 2011, 4:47 AM**

Hoover, you've outdone yourself with your proposal. I get goosebumps thinking about what Central/Downtown Phoenix could be like with such a massive amenity in the center.

phxSUNSfan · #**456** Posted **Dec 12, 2011, 4:55 AM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by combusean

Hoover, you've outdone yourself with your proposal. I get goosebumps thinking about what Central/Downtown Phoenix could be like with such a massive amenity in the center.

I agree; when I was flipping through Hoover's PowerPoint and saw the London Eye (Millennium Wheel) as an example of an amenity within the park I was all over it. I love the view of London from the Eye and it would definitely work in Phoenix. Especially if it was oriented in a way to maximize the view of Camelback, the N. Mountain preserves, and the downtown and midtown skylines.

Of course if the design was similar to London's, then the ovoidal passenger capsules would give a 360° view. Those passenger capsules on the London Eye are also air conditioned! If only there was money for such a project for Phoenix.

HooverDam · #**457** Posted **Dec 12, 2011, 5:00 AM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by combusean

Hoover, you've outdone yourself with your proposal. I get goosebumps thinking about what Central/Downtown Phoenix could be like with such a massive amenity in the center.

Thanks buddy

Quote:

Originally Posted by phxSUNSfan

I agree; when I was flipping through Hoover's PowerPoint and saw the London Eye (Millennium Wheel)

Also, don't let anyone be sassy and say the big Observation Wheel is too heavy- its not! I looked up the weight of the Texas Star (it couldn't hold or fit something the size of the London eye though) and it weighs about the same as that surface lit would if it were full of average American cars. Plus at one point I know the Steering committee was talking about putting a small (one extra level) parking garage on that site, so I think it can hold a little more weight. But again, the City is being dodgy about which sections can hold how much weight---which is frustrating.

exit2lef · #**458** Posted **Dec 12, 2011, 12:30 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by HooverDam

^Thanks for reposting his quote here, I'm the one on there asking him about it

I just wanted to get him thinking, use a little Socratic Method. It just doesn't seem like a well thought out idea, I just imagine it being full of sleeping homeless people. In his recent reply he mentions Hance needing one big attraction or something that creates an identity for the park, but the Canyon would be the wrong way to go about that.

About the density, its never going to be hyper dense in that area. Even under the Urban Form code the East side of Hance Park is only zoned as tall as 80-90 feet, and at 218 dwelling units per acre. Thats solid density though and more than enough to keep the park active, though I would've preferred the lots directly adjacent to the park to be zoned up to around 150', but maybe that would've led to land banking...I suppose people can always apply for variances.

They key is thinking of the park almost as 2 halves, the Western half should be more of a recreational, traditional, neighborhood park. Open spaces, football, basketball, playgrounds, etc. The Eastern half if the more densely used urban park with tons of amenities, attractions and 8-ish story buildings flanking it on both the North & South sides.

Agree on all counts -- both about the canyon potentially becoming a venue for urban camping and the differences between the east and western halves of the park. Right now, the western half is somewhat successful as a neighborhood park. It's the eastern half that is a scary, unappealing, and underutilized space.

HooverDam · #**459** Posted **Dec 17, 2011, 3:41 PM**

Today I had another idea for an amenity in Hance Park but haven't fully thought it through and wanted to use you guys as a sounding board. Hance Park is already sort of the de facto Sister Cities park with the Jewish and Irish Centers and Japanese Garden nearby, I was thinking some sort of Sister Cities Museum might be cool.

A Sister Cities museum/Cultural Center could have exhibits on each city, their history, their role in their could try, etc. A gift shop and cafe could sell products and foods from the Cities. I imagine a place like that would also be very popular for school field trips, especially if it were designed in conjunction with local curriculum. It could also include performance space for visiting artists, musicians and speakers from our 9 Sister Cities. It would also be the ideal place to host the yearly WorldFest and the sister Cities 5k could kick off or finish there.

My one wory is perhaps it would fade in use over time as it could be tricky to keep things fresh when its always the same cities. Thoughts?

Edit: there also needs to be a statue of Margaret T Hance with a display explaining who she was and her role as the Mother of the Mountain Preserves since the park is named for her...that seems obvious, I should be shocked it wasn't done originally but I guess I'm not.

westbev93 · #**460** Posted **Dec 19, 2011, 3:25 PM**

Something to explain who Margaret T. Hance was and the name of Hance Park could be a nice addition.