PHILADELPHIA | 76 Place | 412 FT | 30 FLOORS

[mole-man]

Originally Posted by Marcos

And yea it's a cool looking render but still the whole idea makes very little sense to me.

If the whole idea makes very little sense to you, you don't understand how important public transportation is towards having a high-functioning city, and how much this project can positively impact public transportation in Philadelphia.

[Marcos]

Originally Posted by mole-man

If the whole idea makes very little sense to you, you don't understand how important public transportation is towards having a high-functioning city, and how much this project can positively impact public transportation in Philadelphia.

I've been attending sports events and concerts in Philadelphia since the 1970s at the existing complex without issue, which I find to function perfectly for the same. But thank you for your pitiful attempt to lodge an insult!

[3rd&Brown]

Originally Posted by Marcos

I've been attending sports events and concerts in Philadelphia since the 1970s at the existing complex without issue, which I find to function perfectly for the same. But thank you for your pitiful attempt to lodge an insult!

In otherwords, in a development shocking to no one.

Man from suburbs laments loss of stadium off I-95 exit ramp.

[Frontst17]

Originally Posted by Marcos

I agree, this plan would make more sense if there were no alternatives, but the existing sports complex is and has always been perfectly situated for those purposes. Excellent proximity to center city, plenty of room, tons of parking, the ability to tailgate, easy access from 95 & public transit without clogging center city/not taking up an inch of very valuable center city real estate that already has a well established & great purpose... And yea it's a cool looking render but still the whole idea makes very little sense to me.

Amen. No one has explained the need for this other than “it’ll be cool”. It will be cool yeah, and? The reasons I’ve heard so far is the sixers deserve their own arena, south Philly is too far (wtf?), it’s transit accessible (as is WFC), everyone will take the train there won’t be any car traffic (joke), there’s so many parking garages and the sixers will tell you where an open spot is (straight cackling at this point), it’ll revitalize market east (maybe, but so would a dozen other options at this site, Chinatown is wrong and doesn’t control development in the city (this one is just starting to feel malicious and petty at this point), you could host more concerts and events (Philly could use a new large concert venue anyway and it would do well here and use less space), and somehow people feel THERES NO OTHER OPTION THIS IS HOW WE SAVE THE CITY (…. Yikes). Again it would be cool, but that’s what they said about the gallery

[Gatorade_Jim]

Originally Posted by 3rd&Brown

In otherwords, in a development shocking to no one.

Man from suburbs laments loss of stadium off I-95 exit ramp.

It really is shocking to me that the person from the burbs and the person who doesn’t even live in Pennsylvania don’t get why this area needs to be revitalized. Maybe if you lived in the area and walked by this several times a week you’d understand.

[Gatorade_Jim]

Originally Posted by Frontst17

Amen. No one has explained the need for this other than “it’ll be cool”. It will be cool yeah, and? The reasons I’ve heard so far is the sixers deserve their own arena, south Philly is too far (wtf?), it’s transit accessible (as is WFC), everyone will take the train there won’t be any car traffic (joke), there’s so many parking garages and the sixers will tell you where an open spot is (straight cackling at this point), it’ll revitalize market east (maybe, but so would a dozen other options at this site, Chinatown is wrong and doesn’t control development in the city (this one is just starting to feel malicious and petty at this point), you could host more concerts and events (Philly could use a new large concert venue anyway and it would do well here and use less space), and somehow people feel THERES NO OTHER OPTION THIS IS HOW WE SAVE THE CITY (…. Yikes). Again it would be cool, but that’s what they said about the gallery

It would be cool. That’s not a bad thing.

10th and Market is astronomically more accessible by transit than the WFC is. You’re either confused or lying if you’re telling me otherwise. It’s a one seat ride for the entire region.

Most people will take the train, or the bus, or walk. The main benefit of this new location is the access to regional rail and walkability. Neither of those suffer from the QOL issues that are hampering subway ridership from rebounding fully. This is a fantastic way to get more people onto the system. Regarding car traffic, of course some people will drive. There’s more than enough open parking in the area. Numerous parking studies have shown this.

I don’t even have a response for this one. Yes, there’s plenty of open parking spots during games. Yes, the Sixers have technology capable of routing fans to open spots. Are you dense?

I was with you on the revitalization point until the tower was proposed. The mall is on the verge of bankruptcy. PREIT has already publicly said they cannot make their next loan payment in January. The Sixers are taking a third of it which stops the bankruptcy issue and will draw tenants to the rest of the mall and the south side of Market. The tower will provide even more residential density to make those developments happen. The alternative at this point is a vacant structure.

You’re right. Chinatown doesn’t control development. This isn’t in Chinatown. We’re not giving up a once-in-a-generation opportunity because PIDC is concerned their customers will have to park more than 50 feet from the business they’re headed to.

I’m confused on this point. I think we’re in agreement here. Philly could use a new concert venue and this is a great spot for it.

What? Get out of your echo chamber. Lots of neighborhoods in the city are thriving but Market street from 8th to 10th is in a bad place. I’m at the federal courthouse quite frequently for work and the area needs a lifeline. This is an amazing statement in the future of center city. Come to me with another developer proposing to invest $1.5 billion dollars of private capital in a failing area of the city and then we can have this discussion.

[TonyTone]

I find it hilarious that anyone would think this is a bad idea.

Sure giving the Entertainment district a total revamp is a bad idea, let me call up Comcast, and tell them not to build their towers, then ill head over to SY, And tell them to stop building up UC.

The city is fine as it is, in fact id take it back 50 years to this since we never need to grow

[TK2001]

^
Oh no way!

You gotta go 10 years back so you can see The Drake from there! Now that's a good shot


(This was taken in 1946)

[reparcsyks]

This photo makes me hate Park Towne Place more than I already did.

[Frontst17]

Just so we’re clear the rebuttal is people don’t want to walk from regional rail to the broad street line any more but suddenly more people will be will to take the train now that they don’t have to walk that short distance without leaving the station. Only a small amount of people will drive and their parking location will be provided by the sixers. This will revitalize the shopping in the area and that again somehow this is the only option to revitalize this two block stretch of market street though admittedly the residential aspect is the saving grace to get the arena over the finish line. The greatest public transit portal in the city will be capped by a sports arena because it’s the best possible use. None of my concerns have been answered by these pipe dream delusions

[mole-man]

Originally Posted by Frontst17

Just so we’re clear the rebuttal is people don’t want to walk from regional rail to the broad street line any more but suddenly more people will be will to take the train now that they don’t have to walk that short distance without leaving the station. Only a small amount of people will drive and their parking location will be provided by the sixers. This will revitalize the shopping in the area and that again somehow this is the only option to revitalize this two block stretch of market street though admittedly the residential aspect is the saving grace to get the arena over the finish line. The greatest public transit portal in the city will be capped by a sports arena because it’s the best possible use. None of my concerns have been answered by these pipe dream delusions

It's about an additional 25 minutes to get from Suburban Station or Jefferson Station to the Wells Fargo Center. More people will take public transportation to the game if the trip is about 25 minutes shorter.

[wanderer34]

After listening to some of the gripes on having a downtown arena over an arena that’s 15-20 min away from CC, with a mass transit link (BSL), having another arena not just in the Sports Complex, but in the middle of CC is the most superfluous thing that’s ever been thought of.

The Sports Complex isn’t that far away from CC, plus the BSL is more than adequate enough to deal with sporting events. Some spectators will travel by car, others by bus, and there are those who will opt for the train, and those will will either take a taxi or rideshare. I used to work as a taxi driver for many years, and the amount of people that attend one of our sporting events that I’ve seen at the Slorts Complex makes that area more than adequate to deal with a lot of spectators, especially when there’s a day game at around 12-1 PM and a night game at 7-8 PM.

I don’t believe placing an arena at 11th and Market is the adequate thing to do only because you have a lot of one lane streets in that vicinity plus Market St isn’t as wide as Broad St south of Oregon Ave, Pattison Ave, or the adjacent streets in the Doorts Complex area. In other words, keep all the sporting events in South Philly!!!

[summersm343]

Sixers, Comcast Spectacor public discourse over Center City arena intensifies

The public discourse between the Philadelphia 76ers and Comcast Spectacor regarding the 76ers’ polarizing Center City arena proposal has intensified as a big-name concert promoter has thrown support behind the new arena and Comcast Spectacor has pushed back against claims about the Wells Fargo Center.

More than a year since the privately funded $1.55 billion arena was proposed in July 2022, the dispute between the Sixers and Comcast Spectacor has boiled over as the two entities directly dispute each other's claims. The Sixers are looking to own their own arena while Comcast Spectacor is looking to avoid losing a major tenant at the Wells Fargo Center. After tension built over time, the groups are now attacking each other directly via social media and public statements.

For example, two weeks ago, Azoff Group CEO Irving Azoff, who manages several well-known bands including the Eagles, told concert industry trade publication Pollstar that he recently was unable to secure a Saturday night for an Eagles concert at the Comcast Spectacor-owned Wells Fargo Center.

David Adelman, a Sixers co-owner and chairman of 76 Devco, the development team leading the arena project, shared the Pollstar article on LinkedIn.

The Wells Fargo Center’s X, formerly known as Twitter, and Instagram accounts responded saying Azoff’s story "is simply not true, and Mr. Adelman knows it."

“The Wells Fargo Center had open dates for a concert on the very same weekday dates in Boston. Fact is, in the last 8 years, the Wells Fargo Center has not been able to accommodate a grand total of 2 concerts,” the Wells Fargo Center posted on Sept. 14. “If Mr. Adelman wants to advocate for his 76 Place proposal, that’s his business, but the people of Philadelphia deserve the facts, not just myths.”

Azoff also co-founded Oak View Group, which developed the Seattle Kraken’s Climate Pledge Arena and New York Islanders’ UBS Arena, and is in discussions with the Sixers about partnering on the proposed arena, Pollstar reported.

The Wells Fargo Center hosting both the Philadelphia Flyers and the Sixers posed challenges for concert booking, Azoff said. With Philadelphia being the seventh largest metro area in the country, he argued the region could support two arenas.

On Wednesday, the Wells Fargo Center disputed another 76 Devco projection that the arena would generate $472 million in new net state tax revenue, in addition to approximately $1 billion in new tax revenue for the city and school district.

"Even more unrealistic is their repeated claim that a new arena will bring 50 new major shows, and their associated tax revenues, to Philadelphia every year," the Wells Fargo Center posted. "Philadelphia almost never misses a major touring show because of lack of available dates."

On Friday, Azoff responded with a letter addressed to Comcast Spectacor CEO Dan Hilferty explaining “my team’s inability to book the Eagles at the Wells Fargo Center.”

“I could not risk bringing the Eagles to your building without a Friday/Saturday,” Azoff wrote to Hilferty. “The reason being that, based on our other recent shows in your building, we knew that we would have trouble selling out 2 shows without a Friday/Saturday. To be clear, that is not a lack of confidence in my act or in the Philadelphia market, it’s a specific lack of confidence in your building.”

Azoff closed the letter by saying if his experiences are referred to as a myth again, “your team’s decision to do so will inevitably have a negative impact on my willingness to work with the Wells Fargo Center or other properties owned or managed by Comcast-Spectacor going forward.”

As the public jabs fly back and forth, the Sixers are waiting for the city to complete its independent analysis of the project, which is expected to be completed this fall. City approval would be required for the project and the Sixers anticipate a decision from the city this winter.

Read/view more here:
https://www.bizjournals.com/philadel...l-dispute.html

[PHL10]

Originally Posted by reparcsyks

This photo makes me hate Park Towne Place more than I already did.

Haha, totally.

[BroadandMarket]

Originally Posted by wanderer34

After listening to some of the gripes on having a downtown arena over an arena that’s 15-20 min away from CC, with a mass transit link (BSL), having another arena not just in the Sports Complex, but in the middle of CC is the most superfluous thing that’s ever been thought of.

The Sports Complex isn’t that far away from CC, plus the BSL is more than adequate enough to deal with sporting events. Some spectators will travel by car, others by bus, and there are those who will opt for the train, and those will will either take a taxi or rideshare. I used to work as a taxi driver for many years, and the amount of people that attend one of our sporting events that I’ve seen at the Slorts Complex makes that area more than adequate to deal with a lot of spectators, especially when there’s a day game at around 12-1 PM and a night game at 7-8 PM.

I don’t believe placing an arena at 11th and Market is the adequate thing to do only because you have a lot of one lane streets in that vicinity plus Market St isn’t as wide as Broad St south of Oregon Ave, Pattison Ave, or the adjacent streets in the Doorts Complex area. In other words, keep all the sporting events in South Philly!!!

I can't believe how many times this has to be explained. Comcast Spectacor owns the Wells Fargo Center and the 76ers are tenants there. The 76ers want to own an arena and generate their own revenue instead of renting. They want to host concerts, events, NCAA tournament games, Villanova games etc. A brand new stadium at 11th and Market would instantly be more desirable for all of these events and Philly is a big enough city that can support 2 arenas.

Downtown arenas are more vibrant and create a better atmosphere before and after a game. Most of the 76ers season is in the middle of winter, there isn't really a tailgate culture like there is for football or baseball. The WFC was built in 1996, it will be 35 years old when the 76ers lease runs out in 2031. The Spectrum was 19 years old when the Flyers/Sixers moved on to the Wells Fargo Center. NYC, Brooklyn, Boston, San Francisco, Milwaukee, Miami, Cleveland, Los Angeles, Sacramento, Detroit, Atlanta, Toronto, Montreal and Washington DC all have downtown arenas. So are they all wrong?

JFK stadium was built in 1926. We're coming up on 100 years of the sports complex and still Xfinity Live and a shitty casino are the only things to be built in an abyss of parking lots. I could see an apartment building or some bars being built in the next 10 years but it'll always be a car centric spot.

Then you have the fashion district. A dying mall with a bankrupt owner. The 76ers can save them by buying them out of 1/2 of their space which is a more realistic amount of commercial space. Market East was hit harder than any other area of Center City during the pandemic. Marshalls, Rite Aid, Century 21, Target, Starbucks, Subway, Burger King, DSW and many more stores have all closed in that vicinity. Commercial/retail is doing terribly, especially in Market East. The entire south side of Market Street from 11th to 8th is run down or boarded up besides the Federal building. Massive empty lots at 13th and Market and 8th and Market. It is quite possibly the most well connected public transit intersection in the United States outside of NYC and Chicago. 13 regional rail lines, Patco, MFL, Broad-Ridge Spur and Broad Street line is only a 5 minute walk.

They're also adding a 400 foot residential tower...which eliminates a lot of the supposed "deadzone" people thought the stadium would make. I'd encourage you to hang out at 10th and Market on a Tuesday night in February right now and see how vibrant it currently is...now imagine 20,000 people going to a 76ers game or concert. Getting dinner before and drinks after.

If you're on this forum and care about urbanism there is no logical way you can tell me this isn't a good project for the city. 1.3 billion investment! The 76ers will not spend that much and not clean up the area. They will also dramatically help MFL ridership while I'm sure pressuring Septa and the city to clean up the El. In San Francisco, your ticket to a Warriors game includes a Muni train ticket with it. Hopefully the 76ers do the same.

[SEFTA]

Originally Posted by reparcsyks

This photo makes me hate Park Towne Place more than I already did.

Every time I see it I just wonder, how'd this happen?

looks like a good place for PARK-SIDE CAFÉS!


Transforming Park Towne Place resized by

[Redddog]

Originally Posted by BroadandMarket

I can't believe how many times this has to be explained. Comcast Spectacor owns the Wells Fargo Center and the 76ers are tenants there. The 76ers want to own an arena and generate their own revenue instead of renting. They want to host concerts, events, NCAA tournament games, Villanova games etc. A brand new stadium at 11th and Market would instantly be more desirable for all of these events and Philly is a big enough city that can support 2 arenas.

Downtown arenas are more vibrant and create a better atmosphere before and after a game. Most of the 76ers season is in the middle of winter, there isn't really a tailgate culture like there is for football or baseball. The WFC was built in 1996, it will be 35 years old when the 76ers lease runs out in 2031. The Spectrum was 19 years old when the Flyers/Sixers moved on to the Wells Fargo Center. NYC, Brooklyn, Boston, San Francisco, Milwaukee, Miami, Cleveland, Los Angeles, Sacramento, Detroit, Atlanta, Toronto, Montreal and Washington DC all have downtown arenas. So are they all wrong?

JFK stadium was built in 1926. We're coming up on 100 years of the sports complex and still Xfinity Live and a shitty casino are the only things to be built in an abyss of parking lots. I could see an apartment building or some bars being built in the next 10 years but it'll always be a car centric spot.

Then you have the fashion district. A dying mall with a bankrupt owner. The 76ers can save them by buying them out of 1/2 of their space which is a more realistic amount of commercial space. Market East was hit harder than any other area of Center City during the pandemic. Marshalls, Rite Aid, Century 21, Target, Starbucks, Subway, Burger King, DSW and many more stores have all closed in that vicinity. Commercial/retail is doing terribly, especially in Market East. The entire south side of Market Street from 11th to 8th is run down or boarded up besides the Federal building. Massive empty lots at 13th and Market and 8th and Market. It is quite possibly the most well connected public transit intersection in the United States outside of NYC and Chicago. 13 regional rail lines, Patco, MFL, Broad-Ridge Spur and Broad Street line is only a 5 minute walk.

They're also adding a 400 foot residential tower...which eliminates a lot of the supposed "deadzone" people thought the stadium would make. I'd encourage you to hang out at 10th and Market on a Tuesday night in February right now and see how vibrant it currently is...now imagine 20,000 people going to a 76ers game or concert. Getting dinner before and drinks after.

If you're on this forum and care about urbanism there is no logical way you can tell me this isn't a good project for the city. 1.3 billion investment! The 76ers will not spend that much and not clean up the area. They will also dramatically help MFL ridership while I'm sure pressuring Septa and the city to clean up the El. In San Francisco, your ticket to a Warriors game includes a Muni train ticket with it. Hopefully the 76ers do the same.

I am constantly amazed how many misguided sheep are banging the table against this arena. It is mind boggling.

[TonyTone]

Originally Posted by BroadandMarket

I can't believe how many times this has to be explained. Comcast Spectacor owns the Wells Fargo Center and the 76ers are tenants there. The 76ers want to own an arena and generate their own revenue instead of renting. They want to host concerts, events, NCAA tournament games, Villanova games etc. A brand new stadium at 11th and Market would instantly be more desirable for all of these events and Philly is a big enough city that can support 2 arenas.

Downtown arenas are more vibrant and create a better atmosphere before and after a game. Most of the 76ers season is in the middle of winter, there isn't really a tailgate culture like there is for football or baseball. The WFC was built in 1996, it will be 35 years old when the 76ers lease runs out in 2031. The Spectrum was 19 years old when the Flyers/Sixers moved on to the Wells Fargo Center. NYC, Brooklyn, Boston, San Francisco, Milwaukee, Miami, Cleveland, Los Angeles, Sacramento, Detroit, Atlanta, Toronto, Montreal and Washington DC all have downtown arenas. So are they all wrong?

JFK stadium was built in 1926. We're coming up on 100 years of the sports complex and still Xfinity Live and a shitty casino are the only things to be built in an abyss of parking lots. I could see an apartment building or some bars being built in the next 10 years but it'll always be a car centric spot.

Then you have the fashion district. A dying mall with a bankrupt owner. The 76ers can save them by buying them out of 1/2 of their space which is a more realistic amount of commercial space. Market East was hit harder than any other area of Center City during the pandemic. Marshalls, Rite Aid, Century 21, Target, Starbucks, Subway, Burger King, DSW and many more stores have all closed in that vicinity. Commercial/retail is doing terribly, especially in Market East. The entire south side of Market Street from 11th to 8th is run down or boarded up besides the Federal building. Massive empty lots at 13th and Market and 8th and Market. It is quite possibly the most well connected public transit intersection in the United States outside of NYC and Chicago. 13 regional rail lines, Patco, MFL, Broad-Ridge Spur and Broad Street line is only a 5 minute walk.

They're also adding a 400 foot residential tower...which eliminates a lot of the supposed "deadzone" people thought the stadium would make. I'd encourage you to hang out at 10th and Market on a Tuesday night in February right now and see how vibrant it currently is...now imagine 20,000 people going to a 76ers game or concert. Getting dinner before and drinks after.

If you're on this forum and care about urbanism there is no logical way you can tell me this isn't a good project for the city. 1.3 billion investment! The 76ers will not spend that much and not clean up the area. They will also dramatically help MFL ridership while I'm sure pressuring Septa and the city to clean up the El. In San Francisco, your ticket to a Warriors game includes a Muni train ticket with it. Hopefully the 76ers do the same.

Broke it down perfectly, thank you for your service.

[thoughtcriminal]

[QUOTE=BroadandMarket;10045935]
Downtown arenas are more vibrant and create a better atmosphere before and after a game. Most of the 76ers season is in the middle of winter, there isn't really a tailgate culture like there is for football or baseball. The WFC was built in 1996, it will be 35 years old when the 76ers lease runs out in 2031. The Spectrum was 19 years old when the Flyers/Sixers moved on to the Wells Fargo Center.
Great post, just one point of information. The Spectrum opened in 1967, so it was almost 30 years old when the Flyers and Sixers moved. And it stayed open another 10 years hosting the Phantoms AHL hockey team, concerts, and other events, often as an overflow alternate when the Wells Fargo was booked. I believe Springsteen even played in both arenas on one tour due to scheduling weirdness.

[jaysb]

Originally Posted by thoughtcriminal

And it stayed open another 10 years hosting the Phantoms AHL hockey team, concerts, and other events, often as an overflow alternate when the Wells Fargo was booked. I believe Springsteen even played in both arenas on one tour due to scheduling weirdness.

Don't forget Bon Jovi's Philadelphia Soul Arena Football team! haha, I've been rewatching the old Real World Philly from 2004, they worked for the Soul and they were still playing in the Spectrum!