Is it time for Ontario to be split up into new Provinces?

[ssiguy]

There is no way Ontario's capitol will ever move out of Toronto if for no other reason then it would cost tens of billions. Dividing the province or having part join another province like Kenora joining Manitoba is another matter.

How it stands right now is that the bureaucracy and political parties view Toronto and Ontario as one in the same except at election time but as soon as the election is over, Toronto domination continues. Some things must be provincial in nature like environment, education, health etc but some would be better off divided into regions where infrastructure, economic programs, healthcare, transportation, employment and training programs could be micro managed by the politicians and civil servants from those areas. Run by people who actually know that Timmins is not where you go for your morning coffee and donut and that Windsor is not just the name of a castle.

These programs, with overriding provincial oversight, would be far more efficient, capable, and responsive if they were run by their respective areas to serve the unique needs of those area residents and I'm including Toronto in this equation as well. Sarnia doesn't need multicultural and ESL programs and Toronto doesn't need retraining for laid off resource workers.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by vid

A month? A MONTH? What is this, the apocalypse? Are the charred remains of the forest going to miraculously become verdant within days of the fire moving on and then be lit aflame again???

In what universe does a forest fire close a highway for a month?

Is the road paved with thermite? "Highway 11 was an inside job!"

Wow.


.

http://www.thekingshighway.ca/latchford.html

Closed for a month and a half, with a 3 hour detour. This was due to cold temperatures.

So, a month IS possible.

[1overcosc]

Originally Posted by ssiguy

There is no way Ontario's capitol will ever move out of Toronto if for no other reason then it would cost tens of billions. Dividing the province or having part join another province like Kenora joining Manitoba is another matter.

How it stands right now is that the bureaucracy and political parties view Toronto and Ontario as one in the same except at election time but as soon as the election is over, Toronto domination continues. Some things must be provincial in nature like environment, education, health etc but some would be better off divided into regions where infrastructure, economic programs, healthcare, transportation, employment and training programs could be micro managed by the politicians and civil servants from those areas. Run by people who actually know that Timmins is not where you go for your morning coffee and donut and that Windsor is not just the name of a castle.

These programs, with overriding provincial oversight, would be far more efficient, capable, and responsive if they were run by their respective areas to serve the unique needs of those area residents and I'm including Toronto in this equation as well. Sarnia doesn't need multicultural and ESL programs and Toronto doesn't need retraining for laid off resource workers.

Increased autonomy & responsibilities for Ontario's upper-tier municipalities may be the solution, however I'd only support that if there was also a large-scale consolidation of them--down to about 20 provincewide--and also an appropriate transfer of revenue powers to them to avoid shifting even more of the overall tax burden onto property tax.

[waterloowarrior]

There are already ministry district and field offices all over Ontario (http://www.gojobs.gov.on.ca/search.aspx) but generally the major decision and policy making happens downtown Toronto. That's where the politicians and top bureaucrats are, and you really need all these top people in the same place. Some decentralization was tried under Harris, but from what I remember it wasn't that successful. These offices are still implementing policy decided in Toronto.

IMO Devolution of powers (along with revenue/taxing powers) is a better option than decentralization. Consolidate existing regional governments, and set up these larger subprovincial regional governments that aren't just "creatures of the province" and have decision-making powers.

[1overcosc]

Originally Posted by waterloowarrior

There are already ministry district and field offices all over Ontario (http://www.gojobs.gov.on.ca/search.aspx) but generally the major decision and policy making happens downtown Toronto. That's where the politicians and top bureaucrats are, and you really need all these top people in the same place. Some decentralization was tried under Harris, but from what I remember it wasn't that successful. These offices are still implementing policy decided in Toronto.

A government spread out all over the place is a bad idea. Many federal departments' efficiencies are severely hampered by the federal government's insistence on retaining many random offices all over Canada rather than just keeping the entire bureaucracy in Ottawa.

[eternallyme]

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

As controversial as it sounds, I think the province should depopulate those isolated communities--expropriate everything, bulldoze it, compensate everyone with a free house somewhere else (like in Sudbury or Thunder Bay or something). They cost a fortune to provide services to and provide little economic benefit.

If you did that, you would have a 700 km stretch from Thunder Bay to Sault Ste. Marie with no communities at all, except for a couple First Nations villages of very small size. Then again, population in the smaller Northern Ontario towns are declining very rapidly right now (although small towns in Southern Ontario, away from the major cities, are declining as well, and the same is occurring in all provinces - even Alberta away from the resource communities and major cities).

That said, Northern Ontario has virtually no agricultural or "true" rural population north of the North Channel area (there is a decent rural population in the corridor from Sault Ste. Marie to North Bay though), except in a few pockets such as around Thunder Bay and in the Temiscaming agricultural region. Most outside the major cities live in the small towns or First Nations communities.

[eternallyme]

Originally Posted by vid

A month? A MONTH? What is this, the apocalypse? Are the charred remains of the forest going to miraculously become verdant within days of the fire moving on and then be lit aflame again???

In what universe does a forest fire close a highway for a month?

Is the road paved with thermite? "Highway 11 was an inside job!"

Wow.



A decent 2+1 highway built to Southern Ontario safety standards would likely be sufficient for the rural stretched. Near the cities and in some rural areas, twinning or a median would be ideal. There should be wildlife bridges as well, we don't have those here. (Much of the highway barely has shoulders.)



The difference was, there were communities that vitally depended on the Northland for transportation and supplies. Hypothetically, if GO were to stop functioning for a month (forest fire perhaps? ) life would be difficult but not impossible. But for some Northern communities, if the rail disappears, we're going to have to airlift people to safety because they'll lose their lifeline.

Granted it's only maybe 500 people province-wide at most and they shouldn't even be there. The province could just as easily build them airstrips. That would probably be the cheapest solution.

It cost, on average, over $400 a passenger-trip in subsidies to ride the Northlander. That is ridiculously high, and if they rode it even once a week, they are subsidized over $20,000 a year - the province could buy them a car for that price!

Airstrips are probably the smartest idea for the isolated communities who now only have one road through. Although twinning 11 from North Bay to Timmins might be a good idea too. Maybe also a road to Moosonee should be considered? That would be valuable for port upgrades, but the 110 km or so that needs to be filled would be expensive.

[ssiguy]

They don't have to have a lot of offices across the province to better serve local needs.

Most major cities already have regional offices anyways and all Queen's Park has to do is give them more autonomy. Yes, the budgets, ministry plans, objectives, parameters, guidelines, regulations etc would still be at Queen's Park but how they get to those goals could be decided by the local level.

Bureaucrats in Toronto often have absolutely no clue as to the reality of different social and economic needs. Queen's Park looks at multiculturalism and it's needs as something pivotal to all Ontarians when the reality is that for many Ontarians, the only visible minority in the district is the owner of the one Chinese restaurant.

Think about it..........downtown Toronto is making agricultural and rural Ontario policy decisions yet their only experience of a food market is Chinatown and High park is the wide open spaces.

[theman23]

Complaining about highways that are "not as bad as London" and windmills being ugly is not a convincing argument for separation.

Next motion.

[1overcosc]

I was thinking about the election earlier, and I noticed that some pollsters are beginning to predict a Liberal majority, because the Liberals are on track to basically wipe out the remaining PC & NDP presence in the GTA, even though they're likely to lose the few rural seats they currently have.

If that happens on Thursday it will be a huge moment--a majority government formed with literally no seats at all in rural Ontario, and very few outside the GTA. I'm a Wynne supporter so that result would please me, but I'm concerned about the long-term implications of an exclusively urban majority government being feasible.

This kind of thing is likely to become only more common in the next few decades as the GTA & urban Ontario's population keeps growing while the countryside stagnates.

Calls for separation may actually become quite mainstream in the coming decades. Expect this to become a constant nagging issue starting around 2030.

[Loco101]

Originally Posted by eternallyme

It cost, on average, over $400 a passenger-trip in subsidies to ride the Northlander. That is ridiculously high, and if they rode it even once a week, they are subsidized over $20,000 a year - the province could buy them a car for that price!

Airstrips are probably the smartest idea for the isolated communities who now only have one road through. Although twinning 11 from North Bay to Timmins might be a good idea too. Maybe also a road to Moosonee should be considered? That would be valuable for port upgrades, but the 110 km or so that needs to be filled would be expensive.

A road to Moosonee should have been built years ago. The main reason why I feel it wasn't is because the town is about 85% Cree aboriginal people. Caucasians in a town of 2000 people would go nuts if they couldn't drive out of town and would be loud about it to Queen's Park. The Cree there have tolerated the isolation road-wise although things seem to be changing among the younger people. Many have driven the hydro winter road and are pushing for an all-season road to Smooth Rock Falls.

Twinning Hwy 11 from North Bay to Timmins would take forever. It has taken so long just to have passing lanes added in areas that badly needed them. I do feel that twinning would be a good idea between the Cobalt turnoff and Englehart where there is population spread throughout that section.

Highway 11 (Trans Canada Northern Route) is the main truck route for transports going across Canada between North Bay and Nipigon. It is because it is much flatter and faster.

[vid]

There is intermittent demand from truckers for a new highway to connect Geraldton to Red Lake, north of Lake Nipigon, and then to continue into Manitoba, to avoid Highway 17. There is also the occasional proposal floated around of building a by-pass of Thunder Bay from Nipigon to Raith.

[blacktrojan3921]

I honestly think that if Ontario is going to be split up; this will be the most likely outcome.

[ue]

If it were split up that way, you might as well give that western partition to Manitoba.

[vid]

That would almost double the size of Manitoba, but increase its population by barely 25%.

[blacktrojan3921]

Originally Posted by ue

If it were split up that way, you might as well give that western partition to Manitoba.

It is the most realistic in my opinion; as those are considered to be the boundaries that separate Northwestern Ontario, Northeastern Ontario, and Southern Ontario. (Though I will admit I may have given a bit of the southeastern corner of Northeast Ontario to the South.)

Not to mention that both sections of Northern Ontario have over 200,000 people, so dividing the sections into smaller provinces doesn't make much sense in my opinion for those two when a majority of their populations are centered in pockets. It even makes sense to split Southern Ontario into separate provinces; after all many states down south seem to be doing well. Pennsylvania has roughly the same population number as Southern Ontario, yet is over 6,000 sq miles smaller. And while New York as 7 million more people; it's only 2,000 sq miles bigger then Southern Ontario.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by blacktrojan3921

I honestly think that if Ontario is going to be split up; this will be the most likely outcome.

Move that line so that Parry Sound and Nippissing districts are in North Eastern ON, and I would agree.

[Loco101]

Originally Posted by ssiguy

Run by people who actually know that Timmins is not where you go for your morning coffee and donut

But it is for me! lol

[Loco101]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

Move that line so that Parry Sound and Nippissing districts are in North Eastern ON, and I would agree.

Parry Sound isn't and shouldn't be part of Northern or Northeastern Ontario. But Nipissing should be.

[toaster]

Originally Posted by eternallyme

It cost, on average, over $400 a passenger-trip in subsidies to ride the Northlander. That is ridiculously high, and if they rode it even once a week, they are subsidized over $20,000 a year - the province could buy them a car for that price!

Airstrips are probably the smartest idea for the isolated communities who now only have one road through. Although twinning 11 from North Bay to Timmins might be a good idea too. Maybe also a road to Moosonee should be considered? That would be valuable for port upgrades, but the 110 km or so that needs to be filled would be expensive.

Agree that 11 should be twinned to at least the 11/101 split. Twinning major highways in the North should be a line item in the budget, not something that is announced sporadically. 17 to North Bay, 11 to Timmins (101 split) and the 400 to Sudbury should all be under construction now. I have high hopes with Wynne. Even though her Liberals were basically shut out in the North East (other than the Soo), she does seem like someone who acting in the interest of all of Ontario. Hopefully we can some sort of announcements in the next few years. There should be some sort of provision that stipulates that a certain percentage of the tax revenue received from the Ring of Fire development goes to Northern Ontario highways.