HomeDiagramsDatabaseMapsForum
     

Go Back   SkyscraperPage Forum > Discussion Forums > City Discussions


Reply

 
Thread Tools Display Modes
     
     
  #21  
Old Posted Nov 15, 2019, 4:46 PM
Londonee Londonee is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Fitler Square (via London)
Posts: 1,674
Boston is obviously the best American example.

When I first visited, I remember it feeling so much larger as I wandered the streets... but b/c it's kind of circular in nature, you'd have these weird moments where you'd realize, "wait, that's actually right next to that?"
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #22  
Old Posted Nov 15, 2019, 5:11 PM
iheartthed iheartthed is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: New York
Posts: 2,717
Quote:
Originally Posted by 10023 View Post
But on the other hand, all of those “organic” roads, not the side streets but the main, ancient ones, actually go somewhere. They connect one significant point of interest to another. And that has its own benefits, particularly for wandering. Anyone can figure out how to get from 3rd and 15th to 7th and 43rd, but what exactly is in either of those locations?

In those aerial photos above, I can instantly identify exactly what I’m looking at. Victoria, St Paul’s, Seven Dials, Trafalgar Square. It would be a pain in the ass for a tourist trying to drive around London (but then why the fuck would you do that?), but it creates places rather than just intersections.

New York has “places” mostly where the grid is broken - Washington Square Park, Union Square, Madison Square Park, Columbus Circle, even Rockefeller Center (which has pedestrian “streets” that cut through a megablock).
City Hall Park, Union Square, Madison Square, Times Square, and Columbus Circle, are all at the intersection of Broadway and a major crosstown (i.e. east/west) route. Also, Broadway starts at Bowling Green Park.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #23  
Old Posted Nov 15, 2019, 5:12 PM
SIGSEGV's Avatar
SIGSEGV SIGSEGV is offline
>~< , QED!
 
Join Date: Jun 2018
Location: South Loop, Chicago
Posts: 1,457
__________________
And here the air that I breathe isn't dead. Trump delenda est.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #24  
Old Posted Nov 15, 2019, 5:23 PM
iheartthed iheartthed is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: New York
Posts: 2,717
Quote:
Originally Posted by SIGSEGV View Post
Thanks for sharing. This is relevant to a discussion on another thread about Detroit's early grid based on the property lines of the French settlers in the pre-British era.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #25  
Old Posted Nov 15, 2019, 5:51 PM
10023's Avatar
10023 10023 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: London
Posts: 17,948
Quote:
Originally Posted by iheartthed View Post
City Hall Park, Union Square, Madison Square, Times Square, and Columbus Circle, are all at the intersection of Broadway and a major crosstown (i.e. east/west) route. Also, Broadway starts at Bowling Green Park.
I lived in Manhattan for almost a decade and am well aware of this.

Still, these are places where the rigid rectangular street grid is broken, especially in terms of traffic patterns.
__________________
There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there always has been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge." - Isaac Asimov
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #26  
Old Posted Nov 15, 2019, 6:05 PM
iheartthed iheartthed is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: New York
Posts: 2,717
Quote:
Originally Posted by 10023 View Post
I lived in Manhattan for almost a decade and am well aware of this.

Still, these are places where the rigid rectangular street grid is broken, especially in terms of traffic patterns.
But the grid isn't really "broken" at those places. The grid was deliberately designed that way. I also forgot to mention before, but Washington Square Park has a very deliberate position as the originating point of Fifth Avenue.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #27  
Old Posted Nov 15, 2019, 6:20 PM
hauntedheadnc's Avatar
hauntedheadnc hauntedheadnc is offline
Sentence fragments!
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Asheville, NC - "Home of the Pernicious Poem Place"
Posts: 7,964
Is there a gridded city whose plan allows for the same kind of unexpected intimacy that people here are describing in London and Boston and the like? The only one I can think of might be Savannah, since their plan deliberately terminates streets and sightlines with their squares.
__________________
"He who does not punish evil, commands it to be done." -- Leonardo da Vinci
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #28  
Old Posted Nov 15, 2019, 7:27 PM
proghousehead proghousehead is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 42
Some of my favorite maze like streetscapes in NYC:


https://www.google.com/maps/@40.7152...7i16384!8i8192

https://www.google.com/maps/@40.7143...7i13312!8i6656

https://www.google.com/maps/@40.7147...7i13312!8i6656

https://www.google.com/maps/@40.7173...7i13312!8i6656

https://www.google.com/maps/@40.7184...7i13312!8i6656

https://www.google.com/maps/@40.7202...7i16384!8i8192

https://www.google.com/maps/@40.7190...7i16384!8i8192

https://www.google.com/maps/@40.7270...7i16384!8i8192

https://www.google.com/maps/@40.7297...7i13312!8i6656

https://www.google.com/maps/@40.7302...7i13312!8i6656

https://www.google.com/maps/@40.7301...7i13312!8i6656

https://www.google.com/maps/@40.7317...7i13312!8i6656

https://www.google.com/maps/@40.7297...7i16384!8i8192

https://www.google.com/maps/@40.7307...7i13312!8i6656

https://www.google.com/maps/@40.7309...7i16384!8i8192

https://www.google.com/maps/@40.7314...7i16384!8i8192

https://www.google.com/maps/@40.7315...7i16384!8i8192

https://www.google.com/maps/@40.7316...7i16384!8i8192

https://www.google.com/maps/@40.7324...7i16384!8i8192

https://www.google.com/maps/@40.7334...7i16384!8i8192

https://www.google.com/maps/@40.7335...7i16384!8i8192

https://www.google.com/maps/@40.7338...7i13312!8i6656

https://www.google.com/maps/@40.7377...7i16384!8i8192

https://www.google.com/maps/@40.7368...7i16384!8i8192

https://www.google.com/maps/@40.7387...7i13312!8i6656

https://www.google.com/maps/@40.7300...7i16384!8i8192
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #29  
Old Posted Nov 15, 2019, 8:07 PM
10023's Avatar
10023 10023 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: London
Posts: 17,948
Quote:
Originally Posted by iheartthed View Post
But the grid isn't really "broken" at those places. The grid was deliberately designed that way. I also forgot to mention before, but Washington Square Park has a very deliberate position as the originating point of Fifth Avenue.
I think you and I have a different understanding of what “grid” means.

Few cities have many winding, curved roads (unless they are deliberately designed to be, and called something-or-other Crescent). Paris has avenues that are straight lines, but is not a grid, and like the aforementioned places in NYC its avenues are deliberately designed to originate or terminate at certain points.

Broadway “breaks” the grid in NYC.
__________________
There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there always has been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge." - Isaac Asimov
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #30  
Old Posted Nov 15, 2019, 8:41 PM
iheartthed iheartthed is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: New York
Posts: 2,717
Quote:
Originally Posted by 10023 View Post
I think you and I have a different understanding of what “grid” means.

Few cities have many winding, curved roads (unless they are deliberately designed to be, and called something-or-other Crescent). Paris has avenues that are straight lines, but is not a grid, and like the aforementioned places in NYC its avenues are deliberately designed to originate or terminate at certain points.

Broadway “breaks” the grid in NYC.
We have a different understanding of what "break" means. I think "break" means to alter the originally intended design.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #31  
Old Posted Nov 15, 2019, 8:47 PM
10023's Avatar
10023 10023 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: London
Posts: 17,948
Quote:
Originally Posted by iheartthed View Post
We have a different understanding of what "break" means. I think "break" means to alter the originally intended design.
Ok. I just mean that it interrupts the grid, which it does despite the fact that it has been there all along.

But to your point, it wasn’t actually part of an “intended design”, it’s just that Broadway was a pre-existing Indian trail and then post road that was already there when New York’s grid system was laid out. In that sense it’s just like all of London’s ancient roads that once connected two villages or towns. And it’s quite telling that it is Broadway that gives Manhattan most of its places of significance.
__________________
There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there always has been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge." - Isaac Asimov
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #32  
Old Posted Nov 15, 2019, 10:22 PM
jd3189's Avatar
jd3189 jd3189 is offline
An Optimistic Realist
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Loma Linda, CA / West Palm Beach, FL
Posts: 3,993
Here are some pics of Boston, which has these features at a larger geographical area compared to the others. These pics also remind me that I have to visit Boston one of these days.

19860726 01 Boston, MA by David Wilson, on Flickr




boston by jkenning, on Flickr




[Alley][Street][Boston] by YU-JEN SHIH, on Flickr




Boston streets 2 by Daniel Hast, on Flickr




Charter Street by Eclectic Jack, on Flickr
__________________
There is only one corner of the universe you can be certain of improving, and that's your own self.
-Aldous Huxley

Continue improving until the end.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #33  
Old Posted Nov 15, 2019, 10:55 PM
emathias's Avatar
emathias emathias is offline
Adoptive Chicagoan
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: River North, Chicago, Illinois
Posts: 4,952
Quote:
Originally Posted by 10023 View Post
But on the other hand, all of those “organic” roads, not the side streets but the main, ancient ones, actually go somewhere. They connect one significant point of interest to another. And that has its own benefits, particularly for wandering. Anyone can figure out how to get from 3rd and 15th to 7th and 43rd, but what exactly is in either of those locations?

In those aerial photos above, I can instantly identify exactly what I’m looking at. Victoria, St Paul’s, Seven Dials, Trafalgar Square. It would be a pain in the ass for a tourist trying to drive around London (but then why the fuck would you do that?), but it creates places rather than just intersections.

New York has “places” mostly where the grid is broken - Washington Square Park, Union Square, Madison Square Park, Columbus Circle, even Rockefeller Center (which has pedestrian “streets” that cut through a megablock).
I like the simplicity of grids, but I also feel that grids *primarily* benefit cars and mechanized transit in general. As a pedestrian and fan of subways and other forms of rapid mass transit, more organic forms of street design appeal to me as more human and humane. Paris has what I find to be a pretty good compromise between the two. Their major streets connect major points, and provide structure to the city. Smaller streets help ensure more direct pedestrian routes between daily resident needs. Chicago, on the other hand, which is, by some measures, the most strictly gridded city in the world, makes navigating the city pretty straightforward, but can increase trip length between any given two points by over 40% in the worst case scenario. In a car, that can be annoying, but as a pedestrian it can dramatically reduce your efficient navigation of the city and limit what you can accomplish. As such, my favorite streets in Chicago are often the few diagonals that the city has allowed itself to tolerate. I wish the city had more diagonals, but instead it has fewer diagonals now than it did before the demolition of Ogden north of Chicago Avenue.

Were I the emperor of Chicago, I'd require that some of the mega-projects connect to the grid on their outer edges, and maybe pull the grid through along any of the major, mile-market streets that transit the land, but otherwise require that large areas such as the former Cabrini area, or the so-called "78" or parts of Englewood or Douglas or the former US Steel site or the "Lincoln Yards" areas be plotted out with a pedestrian-friendly, organic streets instead of strict grid adherence. I think that over time that would make those some of the most desirable parts of the city precisely because they'd be the exceptions and not the rule.
__________________
I like travel and photography - check out my Flickr page.
My current active camera gear: Nikon D750, Nikon 14-24mm f2.8 zoom, Nikon 85mm f1.8G, Nikon 50mm f1.4D, Nikon 70-300mm f4-5.6, Nikkor 135mm f3.5 manual focus, Nikkor 55mm f3.5 manual focus, Nikon PB-4 Bellows. Collectible gear: Nikon F4s, Nikon D1, Nikon N4004s (my very first SLR)
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #34  
Old Posted Nov 15, 2019, 11:34 PM
jd3189's Avatar
jd3189 jd3189 is offline
An Optimistic Realist
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Loma Linda, CA / West Palm Beach, FL
Posts: 3,993
Yep, there is a sense of being lost in an “urban jungle” and being able to transverse the city as you would in a forest or more organic area. Even if significant parts of a city are gridded, there doesn’t have to be one grid. Multiple grids with different arrangements to one another would also cause a similar effect.
__________________
There is only one corner of the universe you can be certain of improving, and that's your own self.
-Aldous Huxley

Continue improving until the end.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #35  
Old Posted Nov 15, 2019, 11:58 PM
IrishIllini IrishIllini is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Posts: 993
Quote:
Originally Posted by emathias View Post
Were I the emperor of Chicago, I'd require that some of the mega-projects connect to the grid on their outer edges, and maybe pull the grid through along any of the major, mile-market streets that transit the land, but otherwise require that large areas such as the former Cabrini area, or the so-called "78" or parts of Englewood or Douglas or the former US Steel site or the "Lincoln Yards" areas be plotted out with a pedestrian-friendly, organic streets instead of strict grid adherence. I think that over time that would make those some of the most desirable parts of the city precisely because they'd be the exceptions and not the rule.
I like the north branch for this reason.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #36  
Old Posted Nov 16, 2019, 4:03 AM
MonkeyRonin's Avatar
MonkeyRonin MonkeyRonin is offline
¥ ¥ ¥
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Toronto
Posts: 7,039
Quote:
Originally Posted by 10023 View Post
But on the other hand, all of those “organic” roads, not the side streets but the main, ancient ones, actually go somewhere. They connect one significant point of interest to another. And that has its own benefits, particularly for wandering. Anyone can figure out how to get from 3rd and 15th to 7th and 43rd, but what exactly is in either of those locations?

The big advantage with this arrangement is also that naturally, the streets linking those major destinations are the the shortest, most direct route possible. With many of the "true" grid plans you get a fair bit of inefficiency if traveling in any sort of diagonal direction - unless of course you have some sort of Chicago or Detroit-style radial intervention to break up the grid.
__________________
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #37  
Old Posted Nov 16, 2019, 4:20 AM
MonkeyRonin's Avatar
MonkeyRonin MonkeyRonin is offline
¥ ¥ ¥
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Toronto
Posts: 7,039
Despite being commonly thought of as a gridded city, Toronto actually doesn't have much of a "true" grid at all. The major commercial thoroughfares form a fairly cohesive grid and streets typically intersect at rectilinear angles, but otherwise most blocks are irregularly sized and off-kilter between neighbourhoods, due to the city having originally been built as a largely haphazard collection of independent development rather than having any overarching top-down planning regime.

The result of that now is that most traffic (whether pedestrian, vehicular, surface transit, or by bike) and commerce is pushed to those few through arterials. So we get all of the congestion and disorderliness of a non-grid without their natural connections and spontaneity - in many ways, it's the worst of both worlds.

Good, quick read on Toronto's odd grid and the challenges it creates for the modern city: https://spacing.ca/toronto/2013/07/2...is-not-a-grid/

__________________
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #38  
Old Posted Nov 16, 2019, 4:29 AM
Quixote's Avatar
Quixote Quixote is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 5,991
London's urban labyrinth is what makes its core feel particularly huge, even though it's mostly mid-rise and lacking intensity compared to Manhattan and Paris. One could live their whole life in London wandering about aimlessly and getting lost in its streets. Meanwhile, Manhattan is only interesting below 14th Street.

Paris is the middle ground... more angular and high-intensity, but still irregular and unpredictable. And it's like that over a whopping 41 square miles. All things considered, it's probably the single most impressive urban landscape on the planet. The only thing lacking is skyscrapers.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #39  
Old Posted Nov 16, 2019, 8:05 AM
10023's Avatar
10023 10023 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: London
Posts: 17,948
^ Paris has by far the best urban built environment on earth.

And that’s probably true about it making London seem larger. In reality central London isn’t that big, but that also makes it quite walkable.

Here’s Manhattan for comparison:



https://www.citymetric.com/skylines/...ne-london-1005
__________________
There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there always has been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge." - Isaac Asimov

Last edited by 10023; Nov 16, 2019 at 8:56 AM.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #40  
Old Posted Nov 17, 2019, 2:08 AM
Sun Belt's Avatar
Sun Belt Sun Belt is offline
Love it or leave it : )
 
Join Date: Sep 2017
Location: The Envy of the World
Posts: 4,922
Quote:
Originally Posted by jd3189 View Post
Here are some pics of Boston, which has these features at a larger geographical area compared to the others. These pics also remind me that I have to visit Boston one of these days.

19860726 01 Boston, MA by David Wilson, on Flickr
When in the Sam Heck was this picture taken?!

That middle car on the left is a Chevy Caprice Classic - c. 1984 [could be a Buick Le Sabre, but I'm fairly certain it's a Chevy].
Reply With Quote
     
     
This discussion thread continues

Use the page links to the lower-right to go to the next page for additional posts
 
 
Reply

Go Back   SkyscraperPage Forum > Discussion Forums > City Discussions
Forum Jump


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 4:08 AM.

     

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.