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  #61  
Old Posted Nov 6, 2019, 8:39 PM
badrunner badrunner is offline
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Elon Musk was an immigrant who had a chance to choose between the US and Europe. It's a no brainer for someone like him. In fact, his companies - Paypal, Tesla, SpaceX would not have even been possible in Europe...
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  #62  
Old Posted Nov 6, 2019, 8:42 PM
Baronvonellis Baronvonellis is offline
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Originally Posted by Obadno View Post
I wont deny your statements about there being both extreme poverty and wealth in the USA but I disagree with things like "maternity leave and Paid Vacation"

These are both examples of people equating a state minimum with the reality. There is no state minimum vacation days, or Maternity/Paternity leave and any number of benefits.

But the reality is very few middle class even low jobs outside of part time work offer no vacation nor leave because the labor market demands it as part of the compensation. In the USA thats left to the population either individually or as part of a labor union to negotiate with their private employer.

As a 17 year old mail room employee working under 40 hrs I had vacation and sick time of 2-3 weeks at 18 I qualified for full health and retirement benefits. This was a job that paid 11 bucks an hour.

A few years ago I has 7 paid weeks of vacation. 7! and Now I have no vacation, does that mean I cant take vacation? No, I can take as the job allows I am expected to preform and be available but I can take personal time too as needed.

Despite what the laws might say the reality on the ground is very different.
That's great you had 7 weeks paid vacation before. I've worked for several Fortune 500 companies, I've always gotten 3 weeks, it seems to be pretty standard for corporations in the US, I don't know about government jobs.
I know in Germany and France 6 weeks vacation is the minimum. I've never gotten that much in the US. What about fast food or retail workers in the US? I'm pretty sure they get alot less paid vacation. My friend worked in retail for years, and only got 1 week paid vacation. In Germany and France he would be guaranteed 6 weeks, and therefore be better off and have more time for leisure and to go on vacations with his wife. He would have less stress. My point in that people who aren't the rich winners in society are better off on average in Europe. I'm not talking about 1 persons example. Sure, there are millionaires and billionaires in the US, but they are a very very small percentage.
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  #63  
Old Posted Nov 6, 2019, 8:42 PM
Obadno Obadno is offline
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Originally Posted by edale View Post
How do you know how the Dutch feel about their fellow countrymen? I think your argument is pretty bogus. Americans are some of the most patriotic people on earth (for better or worse). I've never heard of a Texan say s/he wasn't going to cheer for Michael Phelps in the olympics because he's from Maryland. Preposterous. There is an immense amount of national pride here--'from sea to shining sea' and what not.
Im not talking about surface level nonsense like the olympics and the flag.

Im talking about interstate politics. People are far more likely to support social welfare locally than if its a nationwide effort. European nations are literally ethnic-states, Even one of the more "diverse" ones, the UK the English are clearly the dominant group, The Britts do things for the Brits, the Dutch for the Dutch.

And you will absolutely hear Texans loudly hate on Maryland and express their immense displeasure at having to pay into a federal body for the benefit of other states and other people.

I have seen the argument on this very forum about "blue states subsidizing red states"

Ask if the British would be cool with extending the NHS to all of the EU member states.

Lets see how'd they react to it.
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  #64  
Old Posted Nov 6, 2019, 8:46 PM
Obadno Obadno is offline
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Originally Posted by Baronvonellis View Post
That's great you had 7 weeks paid vacation before. I've worked for several Fortune 500 companies, I've always gotten 3 weeks, it seems to be pretty standard for corporations in the US, I don't know about government jobs.
I know in Germany and France 6 weeks vacation is the minimum. I've never gotten that much in the US. What about fast food or retail workers in the US? I'm pretty sure they get alot less paid vacation. My friend worked in retail for years, and only got 1 week paid vacation. In Germany and France he would be guaranteed 6 weeks, and therefore be better off and have more time for leisure and to go on vacations with his wife. He would have less stress. My point in that people who aren't the rich winners in society are better off on average in Europe. I'm not talking about 1 persons example. Sure, there are millionaires and billionaires in the US, but they are a very very small percentage.
That kind of concern is not the way the american culture works, that's a very European way of seeing things. Famously "poor Americans see themselves temporarily embarrassed millionaires"

that quote is used to make fun of the way Americans see themselves but its absolutely true, making the argument that wouldn't it be great if we were "all mediocre" might fly in European countries but it does not compute to most Americans.
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  #65  
Old Posted Nov 6, 2019, 10:25 PM
jtown,man jtown,man is offline
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Originally Posted by Obadno View Post
Many jobs get 6 weeks PTO, honestly some of the worst benefits are the ones offered by Government jobs.

I used to date a woman who worked in the administration of a major US university and ironically they treated their employees worse and offered crappier benefits than I ever saw in my corporate life.

sorry for the double reply
Funny story. One of my professors went on a tirade on how Walmart is a horrible place for workers because of low wages and low benefits. Literally 10 minutes later she shared her experience as a young adjunct professor making less than 15k her first year with no benefits.

So having no benefits and being paid barely minimum wage= ok for someone who worked 8 years on their Ph.D. Working for a low wage and no benefits-not good enough for a low skilled employee.
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  #66  
Old Posted Nov 6, 2019, 10:31 PM
jtown,man jtown,man is offline
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Originally Posted by iheartthed View Post
I agree that mobility is upward mobility harder and also still think that my statement was accurate.

First, the U.S.'s immigration system biases our legal immigrant populations to the most high paying jobs. Unless the immigrant is an asylum seeker, or someone with an illegal status, the person is virtually guaranteed to be earning a wage that is above the median income of the population as a whole, due to the requirements for obtaining a work permit. Second, related to the first point, they are also more likely than Americans as a whole to be working in tech or finance, which are the two industries that have produced the most millionaires over the past 20-30 years. There simply is no equivalent anywhere else in the world (except China) for the number of rich people that have been created through technology in the U.S. over the past three decades.
One point, the vast majority of legal immigrants aren't here because of their potential of high wages. They are here because they have family here.
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  #67  
Old Posted Nov 7, 2019, 12:08 AM
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JManc JManc is offline
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Originally Posted by Obadno View Post
Im not talking about surface level nonsense like the olympics and the flag.

Im talking about interstate politics. People are far more likely to support social welfare locally than if its a nationwide effort. European nations are literally ethnic-states, Even one of the more "diverse" ones, the UK the English are clearly the dominant group, The Britts do things for the Brits, the Dutch for the Dutch.

And you will absolutely hear Texans loudly hate on Maryland and express their immense displeasure at having to pay into a federal body for the benefit of other states and other people.

I have seen the argument on this very forum about "blue states subsidizing red states"

Ask if the British would be cool with extending the NHS to all of the EU member states.

Lets see how'd they react to it.
You are comparing EU members to US states. Apples and Oranges.
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  #68  
Old Posted Nov 7, 2019, 12:22 AM
Obadno Obadno is offline
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Originally Posted by JManc View Post
You are comparing EU members to US states. Apples and Oranges.
The EU was an attempt at recreating a US like federal system in Europe. While the differences between each state in Europe is far more defined because of thousands of years of interconnected political history I think its an apt comparison.

In my experience Europeans seem to consider the USA like they would a single nation within the EU block when they should be considering it like an EU block.

As I said earlier how many Europeans would be cool expanding their welfare and Health systems to all of the citizens of the EU, especially those ones in Southern and Eastern Europe.

I imagine there would be lots of consternation about that.
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  #69  
Old Posted Nov 7, 2019, 12:35 AM
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But the EU is not federal state and some of the pushback they are getting is due to many forgetting they are dealing with actual sovereign countries and not states. Rational people in Texas don't bitch about their federal income taxes paying for some federal program in Maryland...because the money is still within our borders. Taxes levied by the local governments winding up out of states or in other jurisdictions is a separate argument. I don't want my school taxes to pay for some high school football stadium in MD or even the Dallas area.
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  #70  
Old Posted Nov 7, 2019, 12:39 AM
DCReid DCReid is offline
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The only Caucasian's that I think would be very interested in coming here are the Eastern Europeans and Near Asians/Mideast, like the Caucus regions of Russia and the former Asian parts. It's a common belief that many residents of many Mideast countries such as Iran are Caucasian. So I doubt that the current complaints and prejudice against recent immigrants would subside, since many Caucasians from those countries are Muslim. I doubt many northern European Caucasians are interested in coming here as I think they believe we work too hard for limited social benefits and don't enjoy our life as much as they do.

Concerning the comment that if want to be rich, you go to the US but middle class, go to Europe, that sort of reminds me of the plight of most people who play the lotto. Sure, there are many lotto winners, but there are lot more losers.
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  #71  
Old Posted Nov 7, 2019, 12:48 AM
RST500 RST500 is offline
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Originally Posted by iheartthed View Post
Those are older British-born Aussies. If you look back at the previous estimates, the percentage of population born in the UK has started to decrease. It does look like there might be a lot of whites migrating to Australia from New Zealand, which makes sense considering geography.

It looks like Immigration to Australia from Europe except for Ireland is actually decreasing or stagnant, increasing from the US and NZ but probably too small to really matter. Increasing from South Africa, assuming most of those immigrants are probably White.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreig...n_of_Australia

England Steady Stagnant
New Zealand Increase Increasing
Italy Decrease Decreasing
South Africa Increase Increasing
Scotland Decrease Decreasing
Germany Steady Stagnant
Greece Decrease Decreasing
United States Increase Increasing
Ireland Increase Increasing
Netherlands Decrease Decreasing
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  #72  
Old Posted Nov 7, 2019, 12:56 AM
RST500 RST500 is offline
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Originally Posted by DCReid View Post
The only Caucasian's that I think would be very interested in coming here are the Eastern Europeans and Near Asians/Mideast, like the Caucus regions of Russia and the former Asian parts. It's a common belief that many residents of many Mideast countries such as Iran are Caucasian. So I doubt that the current complaints and prejudice against recent immigrants would subside, since many Caucasians from those countries are Muslim. I doubt many northern European Caucasians are interested in coming here as I think they believe we work too hard for limited social benefits and don't enjoy our life as much as they do.

Concerning the comment that if want to be rich, you go to the US but middle class, go to Europe, that sort of reminds me of the plight of most people who play the lotto. Sure, there are many lotto winners, but there are lot more losers.
There are significant Armenian communities in LA but I'm not how much recent immigration there is.

A lot of immigrants from the Caucacas region are going to Russia.
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  #73  
Old Posted Nov 7, 2019, 12:57 AM
RST500 RST500 is offline
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The way immigration is set up in the US is geared towards family reunification or chain migration. So if a nationality does not have larger community already here it's harder to immigrate.
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  #74  
Old Posted Nov 7, 2019, 1:06 PM
Obadno Obadno is offline
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Originally Posted by JManc View Post
Rational people in Texas don't bitch about their federal income taxes paying for some federal program in Maryland...because the money is still within our borders..


What country are you living in hhahaha
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  #75  
Old Posted Nov 7, 2019, 4:22 PM
Handro Handro is offline
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Originally Posted by Obadno View Post


What country are you living in hhahaha
I think you have a very strange view of your compatriots and would be surprised to learn that most people don't view residents of other US states as literal foreigners.

The EU and the US are comparable only in the absolute broadest terms allowed by logic.
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  #76  
Old Posted Nov 7, 2019, 4:25 PM
Obadno Obadno is offline
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Originally Posted by Handro View Post
I think you have a very strange view of your compatriots and would be surprised to learn that most people don't view residents of other US states as literal foreigners.
I never used the term literal foreigner and there is an endless amount of strife between all of our disparate american groups from ethnic issues to city rivalries to state vs state or state vs fed conflict.

If you are sitting there thinking all Americans are brothers in arms that believe what you believe and support what you support you are living in a fantasy
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  #77  
Old Posted Nov 7, 2019, 4:41 PM
Handro Handro is offline
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Originally Posted by Obadno View Post
I never used the term literal foreigner and there is an endless amount of strife between all of our disparate american groups from ethnic issues to city rivalries to state vs state or state vs fed conflict.

If you are sitting there thinking all Americans are brothers in arms that believe what you believe and support what you support you are living in a fantasy
You insinuated "literal foreigner" when you compared Britons/Danes to Texans/Marylanders.

Now you are bringing basic political differences into the conversation, which is absurd in this context and is proof this isn't a real discussion. The implication is that everyone in Texas believes the same thing and everyone in Denmark believes the same thing and everyone in Britain believes the same thing, etc., and differences exist only across state lines or a European country's borders? You've lost your own point long ago.

Have a nice afternoon!
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  #78  
Old Posted Nov 14, 2019, 12:39 AM
RST500 RST500 is offline
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Originally Posted by yuriandrade View Post
On SSC, there were two French forumers living in Montreal, none of them on permanently. In any case, 20,000 or so Western Europeans get into Canada yearly it's a very low figure, regardless from Canadian or Western European point of view.

The UK and France's immigration rates are fairly modest but show up in contrast to the US where no major European Country makes the top 10.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigration_to_Canada

1 India 51,651 18
2 Philippines 40,857 14.3
3 China 30,279 10.6
4 Syria 12,044 4.2
5 United States 9,100 3.2
6 Pakistan 7,656 2.7
7 France 6,600 2.3
8 Nigeria 5,459 1.9
9 United Kingdom and Colonies 5,293 1.8
10 Iraq
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  #79  
Old Posted Nov 14, 2019, 2:06 PM
Jonesy55 Jonesy55 is offline
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Originally Posted by Obadno View Post

Ask if the British would be cool with extending the NHS to all of the EU member states.

Lets see how'd they react to it.
Citizens of all the EU member states do have access to the British NHS when they are either visiting or living in the UK.

And vice versa for Brits using health services in other EU countries.
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  #80  
Old Posted Nov 14, 2019, 6:14 PM
Obadno Obadno is offline
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Originally Posted by Jonesy55 View Post
Citizens of all the EU member states do have access to the British NHS when they are either visiting or living in the UK.

And vice versa for Brits using health services in other EU countries.
That isnt how it works

the NHS will bill their home country if possible, the NHS is not "extended" to all EU citizens that is not true.
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