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  #32241  
Old Posted Nov 25, 2015, 9:32 PM
tovangar2 tovangar2 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ethereal_reality View Post
"Unidentified man walking in downtown Los Angeles" (1940s?)


eBay

Behind him you can see the entrance marquee to Desmond's Dept. Store (616 S. Broadway).



...and today.


gsv

The old Desmond's marquee is still in place, and in good shape.

I just noticed the circle with 618 used to have an architectural element in that spot (look at the vintage pic again)
The last time we discussed Schaber's Cafeteria it was Les Noches du Figaro.
I guess it didn't last.

Schaber's:
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  #32242  
Old Posted Nov 25, 2015, 9:39 PM
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Oh my, I had forgotten about that interior view of Schabers I posted years ago. What a beauty!
I believe the curved steps and mural are still in place.
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  #32243  
Old Posted Nov 25, 2015, 9:47 PM
tovangar2 tovangar2 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ethereal_reality View Post
Oh my, I had forgotten about that interior view of Schabers I posted years ago. What a beauty!
I believe the curved steps and mural are still in place.
The steps are, but not the Einar Petersen (1885-1986) mural

Quote:
Originally Posted by ethereal_reality View Post
Here's an update on the interior.
Les Noces Du Figaro

https://www.flickr.com/photos/waltar...n/photostream/
__

"Schaber’s Cafeteria and Einar Petersen" from the Daily Mirror


1940s. Just look at that terrazzo sidewalk:

lapl

"The Store of Happiness" ca 1940s:

lapl

Before Schaber's was Figaro's it was a Carl's Jr for years.

August 2014 as Cafe Figaro. So much of the beautiful ironwork went missing, inside and out:

gsv



P.S.

I remembered Schaber's b/c I sent Figaro's a bunch of photos from back in the day. They said they had them printed up to give to customers.
Too bad they couldn't make a go of it.

The listing to sell the restaurant is here

Here's the 1928 building permit. Charles F Plummer was the architect:



ladbs

For pix of other Charles F Plummer buildings click HERE

Last edited by tovangar2; Nov 25, 2015 at 11:26 PM. Reason: add a quoted image, a gsv, a permit & links
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  #32244  
Old Posted Nov 25, 2015, 9:49 PM
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Before we move too far from Hoss' Chateau Brentana post, I feel compelled to comment on this lighting fixture.
(there were actually two of them in the original photograph)


detail / Shulman photograph

This has to be one of the ugliest designs I have ever seen (is that hammered copper?)
And if that wasn't bad enough, faux-icicles were added to the bottom.

This is what my mom would call "a conversation piece".
__

Last edited by ethereal_reality; Nov 25, 2015 at 10:56 PM.
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  #32245  
Old Posted Nov 25, 2015, 10:58 PM
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'mystery' location.

Los Angeles Motor Coach Co., Bus #3702.


eBay

I can't tell where this bus has stopped.

-perhaps someone here recognizes the impressive house in the background? -maybe GaylordWilshire? (our in-house house expert)




here's a detail that's actually clearer



The "Los Angeles 5th & Hill" sign on the side is the final destination, right?
__

Last edited by ethereal_reality; Nov 26, 2015 at 12:00 AM.
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  #32246  
Old Posted Nov 25, 2015, 11:28 PM
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Metro Library and Archive have this larger version of the whole picture on Flickr, in case it helps. I think the house on the left is clearer.
Their caption says "Los Angeles Motor Coach bus no.3702 headed to 5th and Hill in downtown Los Angeles, circa 1930."


Metro Library and Archive
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  #32247  
Old Posted Nov 25, 2015, 11:34 PM
tovangar2 tovangar2 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ethereal_reality View Post
"Los Angeles 5th & Hill"
__
My morning stop for years.

The sign indicates the destination.
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  #32248  
Old Posted Nov 25, 2015, 11:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ethereal_reality View Post
'mystery' location.

Los Angeles Motor Coach Co., Bus #3702.


eBay

I can't tell where this bus has stopped.

-perhaps someone here recognizes the impressive house in the background? -maybe GaylordWilshire? (our in-house house expert)


That's the Adolph Ramish house at the NE corner of Wilshire and Kingsley:

http://wilshireboulevardhouses.blogs...e-see-our.html


At left is a glimpse of the George Getty house:

http://wilshireboulevardhouses.blogs...e-see-our.html
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  #32249  
Old Posted Nov 25, 2015, 11:56 PM
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Thanks GW!


"Car and Alpha Beta truck mishap, 1970. Los Angeles.


eBay
_
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  #32250  
Old Posted Nov 26, 2015, 12:33 AM
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From a San Francisco 1902. Mr. Ramish says he wants the diamonds back and pronto!!

cdfiles

THERE IS NO COMPROMISE
Miss Blanche Douglas and Adolph Ramish are Still at War

It is war to the knife over the diamonds for which Adolph Ramish, a few days ago, brought action In the Superior Court, making Miss Blanche Douglass, of the Harrington Reynolds company, defendant.
In speaking of the matter yesterday , Miss Douglas said: "No, indeed, there has been no compromise, and I most certainly will not return the jewels which Mr. Ramish gave me (There was an especial emphasis on the 'gave') until the court orders me to do so and I scarcely think that Is probable.
I did not think my friends would stand by me as they have. They have simply taken the matter out of my hands and are fighting it for me
.''

Attorney John G. Mott has been secured to defend the case." Mr. Ramish Insists that he only loaned the jewels to the pretty actress and that he has proof eought of this to secure the Jewels.


Last edited by CityBoyDoug; Nov 26, 2015 at 1:20 AM.
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  #32251  
Old Posted Nov 26, 2015, 12:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tovangar2 View Post
The steps are, but not the Einar Petersen (1885-1986) mural




"Schaber’s Cafeteria and Einar Petersen" from the Daily Mirror


1940s. Just look at that terrazzo sidewalk:

lapl

"The Store of Happiness" ca 1940s:

lapl

Before Schaber's was Figaro's it was a Carl's Jr for years.

August 2014 as Cafe Figaro. So much of the beautiful ironwork went missing, inside and out:

gsv
Researching something else awhile back I found the Forum Cafeteria bought the Schaber's at 620 S. Broadway in March 1946. They seemed to be big into their breakfast line.
ad from LAT 6-27-46

LAT from 4-11-47

Their thanksgiving menu options for 11-26-1952 sound good.



Schaber's opened up a new location at 665 S. La Brea.
11-4-47

Last edited by Noircitydame; Nov 26, 2015 at 12:46 AM. Reason: correct ad
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  #32252  
Old Posted Nov 26, 2015, 1:35 AM
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I happened across this matchbook a month or so ago.

It has two different names on the same matchbook (with the same phone number).


eBay


below: Inside the matchbook is this list of entertainers.


eBay


After a few google searches I found this 1957 photograph showing the nightclub with the two different names (8572 Sunset Boulevard).


http://oldshowbiz.tumblr.com/image/37336536732 *

I wonder what the difference is between the two nightclubs. Was one more formal than the other? Did one feature musicians, while the other featured comedians?

I just noticed the "Dinners" sign under Crescendo....perhaps the Interlude didn't serve food, while the Crescendo was more of a dinner theater.

below: Interesting fact:

Mort Sahl was the first comedian to appear on the cover of Time magazine.

1960

http://www.mortsahlofficial.com/biography.html


*we first saw this photograph once before back in 2010.
http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/show...postcount=1680
__

Last edited by ethereal_reality; Nov 26, 2015 at 2:00 AM.
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  #32253  
Old Posted Nov 26, 2015, 2:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ethereal_reality View Post
I happened across this matchbook a month or so ago.


I wonder what the difference is between the two nightclubs. Was one more formal than the other? Did one feature musicians, while the other featured comedians?

I just noticed the "Dinners" sign under Crescendo....perhaps the Interlude didn't serve food, while the Crescendo was more of a dinner theater.

__
Interlude was upstairs and I think a more intimate "club within a club" late night jazz place. Crescendo opened 1952 and Interlude a little later.

5-8-1952

(some artistic license taken here)
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  #32254  
Old Posted Nov 26, 2015, 8:00 AM
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And here we have what used to be in that parking lot. Updated.

(ETA: Added a couple of notations on the included pictures, a new "Now" version of the "Italian Stores" shot, and in the North Spring photo, an inset showing camera position and FOV.)

TL;DR version: I found a photo of the small block bounded by North Spring, New High, and Sunset Boulevard, now a forgotten piece of L.A. history long since obliterated by the giant El Pueblo parking lot at 601 N. Main. Picture is also displayed in an image tag below. You can read my comments on the Flickr page; for full picture credits and a more detailed discussion, read on.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Beaudry View Post
Amazing find. Thanks gsjansen. I knew I'd seen the Bamba before -- the Sins book says it's on Main, but we know better, eh?



The question then is What happened to North Spring? The addresses on the 600 block, today, don't begin til 638...hmmm...

Now you see it:



Now you don't!



Our old friend the Jalisco (once upon a time in the Sentous Block, which fronted on Main) is now a ghost living in the middle of a parking lot.

I don't know if this has been answered yet, but a couple of days ago, just by luck, I happened on the answer, plus a view I don't think we've seen here before.

On another message board community, a poster pointed out that the plat maps created and used by assessors often reveal old street alignments, and went so far as to compare it to an X-ray.

He wasn't far wrong, as I found out when I went to the County Assessor's website's property database, and noticed that three oddly shaped parcels still mapped, right in the middle of that giant parking lot. Here, we see only the largest and westernmost of the three highlighted:


(From the L.A. County Assessor's website)


No address, and no build dates, of course, but that's to be expected since there are no structures. But there used to be some buildings there, as we'll see.

But wait, there's more.

Switching from the satellite to roadmap view, we begin to understand what happened with Spring, Main, and New High streets. It's mildly astonishing that the database still records the old street alignments that vanished more than half a century ago. Although this appears to be based on Google Maps, Google itself doesn't provide this interest bit of knowledge.

We now see that North Spring used to run east of New High, which it still does, but the modern alignment throws us off because today the nearly obliterated stub end of New High starts below the modern Spring Street alignment. South of Sunset/Chavez, Spring was rerouted about a block west. The original alignment resumes north of there, so that through New Chinatown both New High and Spring resume their old routes. This should surprise nobody, since that neighborhood still boasts a few buildings from the late 19th to early 20th centuries which are still clearly sited on their original streets.


(From the L.A. County Assessor's website)

Curiously, the plat map, shown in the next picture shows both the new and old alignments of Sunset Boulevard, now duly relabeled in honor of Cesar Chavez.


(From the L.A. County Assessor's website -- better resolved image available here.)

and again we see that weird triangular area comprising three parcels.

As to the street address of the Sentous Block, the North Spring address is correct, as shown on the Baist map. The confusion with North Main comes from the fact that North Spring, like so many other streets, underwent not only realignment, as noted above, but also a flurry of name changes. In the 19th Century it was Upper Main, and was distinct from North Main, which was where it remains today. IIRC in those days there was a rise in elevation, hence the very confusing name for what we would now call North Spring, if only this block of it still existed.


(Sanborn Map, access provided by the San Diego PL.)

For a few years early in the last century, it was San Fernando Road, but by the time of the 1921 Baist survey, it had become North Spring. From that map, it does appear that all of these parcels fronted both North Spring and North Main. Did the Sins book give an even numbered address for the Bamba? It's not difficult to imagine that they could have managed valet parking and taxis on the Main side. The situation with the Sentous is similar, though given its build date, it could have been listed, at various times, on "real" Main Street, or Upper Main, or North Spring.

And now let's go back to those parcels in the middle of the parking lot. I found a photo in the LAPL collection taken from the west, dated April 9, 1940 according to the catalog entry.


(LAPL photo collection, order number 00104245, q.v. if you don't see the photo immediately above.)

The Italian Stores Company was a small chain of grocery stores that had several locations in the DTLA area. This one appears in the 1934 City Directory, listed at 229 W Sunset, corroborating well with the Baist survey map image in Beaudry's post.

(Los Angeles City Directory for 1934, classified section, p2534. LAPL Visual Collection)

Later, the grocery store moved out and a restaurant called O Sole Mio moved in. Identifying the type of restaurant is left as an exercise for the reader.

Obviously, this address was on the original alignment, where we see Sunset veering off to the right. The Baist map lists a couple of hotels in this block, but I was unable to find any of those listed in any of the directories. Possibly they were boarding houses run by landladies who only took in boarders with references, and preferred not to announce their presence to all and sundry.

To the left of the Italian market, we look down Bellevue Avenue, somewhat close to the present-day alignment of Sunset/Chavez. The Bamba Club, one door north of the Sentous Block, is partially visible in the distance. ETA: In the far distance, at the very right margin, we can see the Fook Wo Lung building standing on the southeast corner of Los Angeles and Sunset/Marchessault, and dwarfed by the gasometer behind it. This building was home to the Dragon's Den Restaurant.

As we let our gaze continue along Sunset, we see the south end of that narrow block between North Main and North Spring; the building there is the Pacific Hotel at 608 1/2 North Spring. Just north of there was the Hotel Atlantic, with the Sentous building just beyond that. If we could wander on down Sunset and turn left at North Spring, then wander up to the other end of the block, this is what we'd see if we turned around:



(LAPL Photo Collection, order number 00014327, q.v. if image doesn't appear here. Inset from the 1921 Baist map, showing approximate position and FOV of camera, added by me.)

At once we're struck by the abundance of hotels; nearly every other building seems to house one. The demand for cheap lodgings, given the neighborhood population of the era which skewed heavily transit dependent and working class, was vast and deep. The decade following these images brought about a major change, as a result of which the neighborhood now skewed heavily towards -- nothing. NYC has Tribeca; San Francisco has...well, San Francisco; and Chicago has the Near North Side. Even San Diego has the Gaslamp. But in L.A. we've got a half-dozen parking lots and a few architectural remnants--and, of course, relentlessly regularized boulevards.

If we could keep going down Sunset, we'd cross Main and then the north end of the Plaza, immediately south of the Simpson Building, Olvera Street, and the Methodist Church. There was a time when the Plaza Church, now addressed on the west side of Main, and the Plaza Methodist Church both had Sunset Boulevard addresses, W and E respectively. Going still further we'd pass the last remnant of Old Chinatown on our right, and then straight across Alameda into the main entrance of Union Station.

Having seen all of these images, it is impossible not to feel resentment, nay, a simmering rage, at what has been lost, and for nothing more than a parking lot. Here we see images from a time when this neighborhood possessed a certain vigor and was full of crazy-angled streets and old architecture--a sort of Southern Californian Altstadt. In hindsight, it seems that this neighborhood, in particular, became the poster child of the suburbanist urban renewal ethos of making Downtown America car-friendly and everything-else-unfriendly. Another factor, perhaps, was a priggish urge to rid the neighborhood of "unsightliness", including any evidence of nightlife like the Bamba, and for that matter the working people who lived here along with the cheap hotels and other businesses that catered to them. The neighborhood was going to be cleaned up, and if it meant total destruction, then so be it. We couldn't have busloads of school children coming down here to see Olvera Street and let them see that, could we?

ETA: An approximate "Now" version of the above picture:


(GSV Screengrab)

Nearly everything in the 1940 picture has been bulldozed, revealing at extreme right the the Plaza Substation, and at left the entire elevation of the Terminal Annex, were before only the top of the tower could be seen.
__________________
The new Wandering In L.A. post is published!

A Couple Of Before-And-Afters That Won't Make You Sad

Last edited by Those Who Squirm!; Jan 7, 2016 at 1:30 AM. Reason: Added notes and one picture
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  #32255  
Old Posted Nov 26, 2015, 8:05 AM
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Again with the Woolen Mill

Quote:
Originally Posted by tovangar2 View Post

Glover, 1877:

loc

I wasn't able to locate the demo permit.

The mill must be just out of shot to the right in this post-1886 view (I think the shed, south of the mill, and the tank are just in view though). I kept missing it:


lapl/wm henry fletcher, n.d.

Note the little arroyo (behind the dark house in the center foreground at the NW corner of 5th and Flower), which carried Los Reyes and the
waste water away from the mill. The waste water was piped under what-was-then Pearl Street (as shown) before being, once again, exposed to the air.

__
Thanks for the additional info and images!

I believe the mill's address was changed to 443 S. Figueroa. There are two October 1939 LADBS permits for
a garage at that address; the first permit is for work on the building and then the second one, 18 days later,
is for tearing the whole thing down. Perhaps its condition was found to be too far gone for remodeling.

# # #

This c. 1887 photo was supposedly taken from near 5th and Figueroa. It may show the Woolen Mill Ditch flowing
to the start of the flume that led to the roof of the mill, but the photo might be looking too much to the north for that:

Seaver Center -- http://collections.nhm.org/seaver-ce...&refirn=558426

I am definitely confused about the above photo. Perhaps the section of flume is over a ravine further up the
ditch, rather than the section leading directly to the mill roof in the 1876 photo? If this were the section of
flume leading directly to the roof, I think we'd see the little creek that ran just south of the mill. The long
scar on the hillside in the upper right corner may show 2nd Street after the cable railway was built there.

Here's a closer look at a portion of the above photo. In the middle distance is a prominent sloping hill at the
left side of the red box. On the right side of the box, below the green star, there is a smaller, flat-topped hill
the same shade as the prominent sloping hill. There seems to be a small, partially bare knoll just in front of
the left side of that smaller flat-topped hill:


Now here is an enlarged view of a portion of the 1876 photo of the mill. I think we see, lower and from a little
further east, the same prominent sloping hill at left and the flat-topped hill on the right, with the little knoll in
front of its left side:


Anyway, it seems like the 1876 photo looking across the flume and the c. 1887 photo looking up the flume show
the same background, and that has me confused. Maybe the two photos show two different flumes on the Woolen Mill
Ditch, or maybe the c. 1887 photo shows not the Woolen Mill Ditch but a different one?

What I've referred to as the "prominent sloping hill" can be clearly seen in the center of the 1916 panorama
I posted before, with the former mill in the lower left corner:


Thanks er for the 1880 article on the woolen mill. Here is another mention:

May 1880 Semi-Tropic California @ Hathitrust -- http://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?i...eq=48;size=175

This reference to the mill and ice house is from the 1886 LA City Directory:

fold3.com

Last edited by Flyingwedge; Nov 26, 2015 at 9:38 AM. Reason: forgot something
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  #32256  
Old Posted Nov 26, 2015, 3:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Noircitydame View Post
Interlude was upstairs and I think a more intimate "club within a club" late night jazz place. Crescendo opened 1952 and Interlude a little later.
__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Thanks for the info NCD.



originally posted by Noircitydame
I certainly wasn't expecting anything like this to be on roof. I wonder if this outdoor area shows up on vintage aerials? (hint 4 hoss )
__
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  #32257  
Old Posted Nov 26, 2015, 5:02 PM
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  #32258  
Old Posted Nov 26, 2015, 7:21 PM
tovangar2 tovangar2 is offline
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Coulter's Mill

Amazing FW. I don't think I've ever seen a photo from this early, from this POV (1887 was the same year the Belmont Hotel burned down):
Quote:
Originally Posted by Flyingwedge View Post
This c. 1887 photo was supposedly taken from near 5th and Figueroa:

Seaver Center -- http://collections.nhm.org/seaver-ce...&refirn=558426
About the same year, looking west from Bunker Hill. The line of trees , on the right side of the photo, is also Los Reyes. It was partially dammed to form the lake at the now-vanished Second Street Park.:
Quote:
Originally Posted by tovangar2 View Post

water and power
Second Street Park ca 1890:

california state library via kcet

I think Los Reyes (in the top photo), which has been turned into a canal (such as it is) by the Los Angeles Canal and Reservoir Company, turns east before it reaches the house with the clothesline, exiting the image on the right margin. If I'm correct, the mill is out of shot to the right.

That sure looks like the 2nd Street Cut in your photo, but it looks too close. Maybe your photo wasn't taken at 5th & Fig, but further north:
Quote:
Originally Posted by tovangar2 View Post

water and power
I think (this is all conjecture mind you) the canal we see in the photo approximately follows the west side of Canal St, which, although platted by 1875, probably never came into being (if only we had the image for Block 15!):

huntington dl/other blocks in this series are here

Quote:
Originally Posted by Flyingwedge View Post

1875 Map of Canal and Reservoir Company Land @ Huntington Digital Library -- http://hdl.huntington.org/cdm/single...d/12985/rec/11
Thank you again so much. Lots to think about and explore.

Last edited by tovangar2; Nov 26, 2015 at 8:22 PM. Reason: remove P. S.
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  #32259  
Old Posted Nov 26, 2015, 7:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ethereal_reality View Post

I certainly wasn't expecting anything like this to be on roof. I wonder if this outdoor area shows up on vintage aerials? (hint 4 hoss )
I looked, but I can barely see the building outlines, let alone a roof garden. USC has a good Dick Whittington aerial from 1961, but its right margin stops about two buildings short .


---------------


Here's another building that Julius Shulman got to photograph in the year that it opened. It's the Times-Mirror Building at 145 S Spring Street, or "Job 327: Rowland H. Crawford, Los Angeles Times, Mirror Building (Los Angeles, Calif.), 1948" as Mr Shulman called it.







The text saying "THE MIRROR" has been removed over the years, but otherwise this entrance looks much the same on GSV.



I assume that all the bays on the right used to be pick-up points for the delivery trucks. Today, they've been filled in with windows.



Here's one of the offices.



And finally, the printing presses.



All from Getty Research Institute

The lower windows seem to have been modified, but the main structure is unchanged.


GSV
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Old Posted Nov 26, 2015, 7:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Those Who Squirm View Post
There was a time when the Plaza Church, now addressed on the west side of Main, and the Plaza Methodist Church both had Sunset Boulevard addresses, W and E respectively.
There's some contention about this. The more reliable maps I'm familiar with all show Bellevue/Sunset ending at the complicated intersection on the NW corner of the Plaza, with Marchessault then running east from Main.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Those Who Squirm View Post
Having seen all of these images, it is impossible not to feel resentment, nay, a simmering rage, at what has been lost, and for nothing more than a parking lot. Here we see images from a time when this neighborhood was full of crazy-angled streets and old architecture--a sort of Southern Californian Altstadt. In hindsight, it seems that this area became the poster child of the suburbanist urban renewal ethos of making Downtown America car-friendly and everything-else-unfriendly. Another factor, perhaps, was the priggish urge to rid the neighborhood of "unsightliness", including any evidence of nightlife like the Bamba, and for that matter the working people who used to live here, taking their evening rest and amusement at the bars, clubs, and cafes that were to be found here. We couldn't have busloads of school children coming down here to see Olvera Street and let them see that, could we?
I too wish we still had an "old town".

Jane Jacobs cautioned cities to "respect – in the deepest sense – strips of chaos that have a weird wisdom of their own not yet encompassed in our concept of urban order."
wiki
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