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  #61  
Old Posted Feb 6, 2017, 11:11 PM
Crawford Crawford is offline
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Originally Posted by Steely Dan View Post
and if wrigley actually was such a horrible thing to live near, lakeview wouldn't have some of the highest non-downtown residential real estate prices in the city (but it does, hmmmmmm..........)
This is a correlation/causation issue. Yes, Lakeview is generally expensive, but Wrigleyville is probably the cheapest/least desirable part of Lakeview. I don't think anyone can reasonably claim that families like Lakeview because of proximity to Wrigley Field, as opposed to things like the lake, good schools, central location, transit, amenities, safety and the like.
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  #62  
Old Posted Feb 6, 2017, 11:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Crawford View Post
This is a correlation/causation issue. Yes, Lakeview is generally expensive, but Wrigleyville is probably the cheapest/least desirable part of Lakeview. I don't think anyone can reasonably claim that families like Lakeview because of proximity to Wrigley Field, as opposed to things like the lake, good schools, central location, transit, amenities, safety and the like.
my point was that if wrigley was so horrible to live near, then no one would want to live near it. the proximity to the ballpark and the sports bar centered nightlife zone around the stadium obviously has some amount of appeal to some people. it might not be the first choice of neighborhood for most families with small children, but for a young, single, alcoholic, sportsfan, whats not to love? i lived there as a 20-something over a decade ago for similar such reasons.

just because you don't like certain things doesn't mean that every other single human being on the planet dislikes those exact same certain things. people are different.
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  #63  
Old Posted Feb 6, 2017, 11:26 PM
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I don't doubt you're certain, but I honestly have no idea why you're so certain. Why would someone buy a condo because of a nearby soccer stadium?

SSP is a site for young male urbanists, which probably heavily correlates with pro sports fans and fans of downtown development in general. Ask a woman if she prioritizes arena proximity when buying a home.

I suspect this is why so many people are convinced that people buy condos based on proximity to Lakers games, as opposed to things like schools, restaurants, public safety, access to employment. If downtown LA is booming it's because people want to live/work in downtown LA, not because they built a sports arena downtown.
Not one wanted to live in downtown in 1998. It was a place to work and at 5 pm, everyone left and 6 pm, DTLA was dead. Spring St. was the start of Skid Row. Then Staples Center was built. The Lakers, Clippers, Kings, and Sparks all moved from either the Forum in Inglewood (or in the Clippers case, the Sports Arena) to the Staples Center downtown. People who normally wouldn't go downtown for any reason now got to see a new side of the city. Staples was a beacon of sorts (literally with it's search lights and bright blue night time lighting scheme).

People moved downtown not specifically to be near the Lakers but to be near the energy that an entertainment district brings. And it's only getting bigger.
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  #64  
Old Posted Feb 7, 2017, 12:24 AM
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^ this. the return to downtown would have happened anyway, just like it has everywhere else, but the LA live hotel/entertainment/convention district made it happen faster, and in the specific way that it did, with improved rail connections, etc. like literally, within weeks of the stadium groundbreaking, developers were buying/converting/building. you couldn't even secure construction loans before that.

the weak causal line between investment and economic developments is important when we're talking using public money for a stadium, that analysis doesn't support investment. but the places themselves, built privately, how could it be anything but positive? crawford, you're getting your wires crossed here.

and have you been to LA live? it's pretty spectacular, and the years will bring more and greater development surrounding it. and this thing thing is effectively anchoring development in western DTLA.
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  #65  
Old Posted Feb 7, 2017, 6:29 AM
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Guys, why are you arguing with Crawford? He is clearly superior and knows more than any of us on this topic.
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  #66  
Old Posted Feb 7, 2017, 10:51 AM
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Originally Posted by Crawford View Post
This is all nonsense. Downtown districts don't "boom" because of a sports arena. There are countless studies, and a consensus by economists that sports arenas make no sense in terms of growing local economies.

If downtown LA is booming, it's because people want to live and work in downtown LA, not because of a few hockey matches or a Justin Bieber concert. If anything, an arena is a net negative. People don't want to live next to giant event venues. This is why, generally speaking, arenas are located in fringe districts or dead zones. They harm existing built form. They're empty most of the time, require massive parking, and huge, pedestrian-hostile footprints.

The stuff going up near Staples Center is mostly subsidized, and would have gone up without an arena. It's a classic causation-correlation fail. There's a new jail near me in Brooklyn that is now surrounded by luxury development, so I guess I should claim the jail caused the development? It's actually that the jail was built where there were empty lots, just like the LA arena was built where there was empty space, so obviously development will occur in the vicinity, because there's nowhere else to build.
NFL stadiums are empty most of the time, not arenas. Some arenas get hundreds of uses each year, such as has already been pointed out about Staples Center.

Ideally, you want an environment like Wrigleyville where the neighborhood is built around it. Baseball stadiums are best in that regard because you get 81+ games a year. Combine it with a concert venue, not necessarily a basketball arena, maybe a few art galleries and some fancy restaurants and you may have something going.
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  #67  
Old Posted Feb 7, 2017, 12:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Steely Dan View Post
my point was that if wrigley was so horrible to live near, then no one would want to live near it.
But I'm not claiming that stadia are "horrible," akin to leaking toxic waste dumps or something. I just don't think they're generally good for urbanity and desirability. And I certainly don't think they're a "magic bullet".

That doesn't mean that stadia can't exist as part of a vibrant urban ensemble. If jails, waste transfer stations and odious uses can exist in proximity to multi-million condos, obviously more benign uses like stadia can also exist. Heck, much of North Brooklyn is part of two large Superfund sites, yet that doesn't stop fancy buildings from going up.
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  #68  
Old Posted Feb 7, 2017, 1:05 PM
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Originally Posted by LosAngelesSportsFan View Post
Guys, why are you arguing with Crawford? He is clearly superior and knows more than any of us on this topic.
Expected response. It's the economists that are superior to your (or my) anecdotes. Argue with the economic consensus, not me.

There's an absolute consensus that arenas, no matter how busy, don't revitalize cities and don't really provide net positive economic boost.
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  #69  
Old Posted Feb 7, 2017, 2:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Crawford View Post
Expected response. It's the economists that are superior to your (or my) anecdotes. Argue with the economic consensus, not me.

There's an absolute consensus that arenas, no matter how busy, don't revitalize cities and don't really provide net positive economic boost.
From 2010...


http://www.jmisports.com/petco-park-...ounty-economy/

Quote:
$1.8B Invested In Construction in Last 10 Years.

Development of downtown San Diego’s Petco Park has brought a 7.6 percent annual return on the community’s $300 million investment in the past 10 years, according to a consultant’s report released July 14.

The report by Minnesota-based Conventions, Sports and Leisure, or CSL, commissioned by the San Diego Regional Economic Development Corp., says benefits from the baseball stadium and surrounding development have surpassed the initial projected annual return of 1.7 percent.

CSL consultant Bill Rhoda, who presented findings at a downtown news conference, said the ballpark and surrounding 26-block ballpark district, from 2000 to 2009, generated more than $207 million in net new tax revenue, including sales, property, and transient occupancy taxes.

There was more than $1.2 billion in net new spending by visitors during that period, and the stadium’s presence also created 19,220 jobs and payrolls surpassing $783 million, according to CSL.

Julie Meier Wright, president and chief executive officer of the regional economic development corporation, which is supported by the business community through a nonprofit foundation, said the organization paid $65,000 for the CSL study. The aim was to determine whether the 42,500- seat ballpark, home to the San Diego Padres, has delivered financially on its original purported benefits.

A Catalyst for Development

Wright said findings indicate that Petco Park has exceeded expectations as a tax revenue generator, a catalyst for surrounding downtown development, and a boost for the county’s overall economy as it seeks to lure job-creating businesses from outside the region.

“It’s turned out to be much more than a ballpark,” Wright said.

The study’s release comes as city leaders are mulling how and whether to finance a proposed new stadium for the National Football League’s San Diego Chargers, possibly on downtown land just east of Petco Park. However, the report did not address football stadium issues.

Petco Park, which opened in 2004, was built through a partnership of the City of San Diego; the Centre City Development Corp., its downtown redevelopment agency; and Major League Baseball’s Padres.

Development of the stadium and adjacent ballpark district followed voters’ approval of Proposition C in November 1998, to provide public funding.

Proposition C passed with the support of about 60 percent of voters. As in other communities that have debated public funding of professional sports venues, local opponents said government funds should be devoted to more pressing, immediate community needs.

Construction on Petco Park did not begin until 2000, after being held up by several lawsuits challenging the project.

Major Impact

Commenting on criticism, in published reports, that the study credited Petco Park with benefits that could have actually been spurred by expansion of the nearby convention center, Rhoda said consultants were careful to limit the study only to construction and other impact created within the specific 26-block ballpark project area that includes portions of East Village.

In downtown areas where Petco Park and the convention center may have both generated results, Rhoda said that revenue was not factored into the ballpark impact numbers. So the impact of the ballpark could actually be higher than the figures reported, the consultant said.

Rhoda said the consulting firm has done several similar community studies related to professional sports stadiums in recent years, including newly opened venues for baseball’s Houston Astros and football’s Dallas Cowboys. He said San Diego’s ballpark compares well in terms of economic results generated.

“It’s one of the top-performing public-private projects we’ve seen to date,” Rhoda said.

Cumulatively, more than $1.8 billion has been invested in the construction of Petco Park and surrounding developments during the past decade. About $1.58 billion, or 84 percent, was private dollars, the CSL study said.

According to the regional development corporation, before approval of Proposition C, about 70 percent of the land in what is now the ballpark district was vacant or used for outdoor parking and storage. At the time, the entire East Village neighborhood generated about $2 million in property tax revenue.

The CSL study found that as of year-end 2009, more than 3,500 residential units, 957 hotel rooms and approximately 610,000 square feet of commercial space had been constructed and opened surrounding Petco Park, with a total estimated market value of $1.79 billion.

Regional Asset

“We are often asked to endorse major projects and lend support to making them a reality,” Wright said. “From an economic development standpoint, such projects become regional assets that are part of what makes San Diego an attractive place for a company to invest or grow.”

Wright said there are other upcoming local projects, including a new civic center, convention center expansion and proposed football stadium, that will have a favorable impact on the entire region.

“All these projects deserve objective scrutiny to ensure that they are legally and financially sound, and then they deserve public support,” she said.

In a statement responding to the CSL report, Padres Vice Chairman and Chief Executive Officer Jeff Moorad said the findings confirm “that Petco Park is a model for other municipalities to follow.”

Moorad, who is also a co-owner of the Padres, said the local results are a testament to Major League Baseball Commissioner Bud Selig’s legacy of getting new ballparks built “that are driving economic value to cities all across the country.”

He credited Petco Park’s success to city government leaders, Padres fans, and the early commitment and vision of Padres Chairman John Moores and former team President Larry Lucchino.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CmzLZBMUkAAw8ho.jpg
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  #70  
Old Posted Feb 7, 2017, 2:46 PM
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^ holy crap! what a transformation.




Quote:
Originally Posted by Crawford View Post
But I'm not claiming that stadia are "horrible," akin to leaking toxic waste dumps or something. I just don't think they're generally good for urbanity and desirability. And I certainly don't think they're a "magic bullet".

That doesn't mean that stadia can't exist as part of a vibrant urban ensemble. If jails, waste transfer stations and odious uses can exist in proximity to multi-million condos, obviously more benign uses like stadia can also exist. Heck, much of North Brooklyn is part of two large Superfund sites, yet that doesn't stop fancy buildings from going up.
i wasn't talking about "magic bullets" or even stadiums in general. i was talking exclusively about wrigely field and its neighborhood in response to your comment about how people who live in wrigleyville must dread game days because living next to a major league stadium is supposedly such a pain in the ass.

wrigley has stood at clark & addison for over 100 years now. there is no one now living in the neighborhood who was there before the stadium. anyone living in wrigleyville who finds it aggravating to deal with home games 81 days (+ several major concerts) every year is an outright idiot. the stadium was there first. there are 226 other square miles of the city of chicago (most of them way more affordable than wrigelyville) that they can live in and not be next door to wrigley.

my main point was that wrigley field and its attendant nightlife district actually ARE a draw for some people. no, not most couples with young children or retirees, but chicago does attract a shitload of 20-something big 10 grads and wrigleyville is one of the gateway neighborhoods for those kids because it's generally safe and desirable (without being stupid expensive) and has loads of other single 20-something big 10 grads to mingle with and loads of bars and other venues to mingle with them in. if you like sports and beer and being young and stupid, then there aren't many other better neighborhoods in the country to drink away your twenties in.

does wrigleyville hold appeal to all people? no

does wrigelyville hold appeal to some people? yes.
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Last edited by Steely Dan; Feb 7, 2017 at 4:17 PM.
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  #71  
Old Posted Feb 7, 2017, 4:55 PM
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Brandon, your article doesn't make your point.

Downtown San Diego would probably have boomed with housing in any alternate scenario. It might have been a little less focused on the Ballpark Village area.

Stadiums and arenas can contribute and often do, but it's not clear whether the end result is a net positive.

For my own city I'm generally biased in favor of stadiums and arenas of course, but it's not for neighborhood revitalization.
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  #72  
Old Posted Feb 19, 2017, 1:41 PM
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Even Arlington is doing this, but I doubt it will be successful or well renowned. At the end of the day, it will just be a few restaurants and bars in an endless sea of parking.

http://texas-live.com/
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  #73  
Old Posted Feb 19, 2017, 7:30 PM
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That sounds destined to be much like LA Live in the daytime...deadsville. Except Texas Live would have fewer events and no surrounding neighborhood to help address that.

Or do hordes of suburban workers actually drive a few miles for lunch every day?

This is more of that asinine claim on job creation. They're talking about how many jobs will be onsite and using that as "new" jobs. It's really the same jobs collected in a different location. (Do schools not teach even the most basic economic principles anymore?!)
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  #74  
Old Posted Feb 19, 2017, 8:27 PM
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As many know, San Francisco has been redeveloping a former rail yard renamed Mission Bay now for several years. Already in place is a lot of housing, a branch campus of UC San Francisco (which is a largely medical institution so its campus is mostly biomedical research facilities) and a "womens' and cancer hospital" also affiliated with UC.

But next to come is the new arena to be known as Chase Center for the Golden State Warriors NBA team. Frankly, aside from UC employees and students, hospital patients and people who live in the new condos and apartments, the new neighborhood has nothing yet to attract people from other neighborhoods and has something of the look and feel of a suburban business park. Many hope the Warrior's arena will change all that since it will host not only Warriors' games but other "events" when the Warriors aren't playing. It's surprising to many, but San Francisco really has not had a good modern indoor arena for large-scale pop concerts and similar events.

And this one will have a light rail line running right in front as well as being on the Bay front making it convenient for water-born transit (water taxis, ferries) as well.

It's hard to find a photo of Mission Bay when there was nothing there. Even this one that's a few years old now shows the first buildings of the UC campus in the middle of the wasteland:


https://www.google.com/search?q=Miss...9ZbV5mYW78_pM:

But here's what it will look like by the 2019 NBA season:


http://www.mercurynews.com/2017/01/1...-chase-center/


http://www.sfgate.com/bayarea/articl...#photo-7800013


http://www.sfgate.com/bayarea/articl...#photo-7800013
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  #75  
Old Posted Feb 20, 2017, 1:32 AM
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Originally Posted by mhays View Post
That sounds destined to be much like LA Live in the daytime...deadsville. Except Texas Live would have fewer events and no surrounding neighborhood to help address that.

Or do hordes of suburban workers actually drive a few miles for lunch every day?

This is more of that asinine claim on job creation. They're talking about how many jobs will be onsite and using that as "new" jobs. It's really the same jobs collected in a different location. (Do schools not teach even the most basic economic principles anymore?!)
Victory Plaza outside the American Airlines center (home of Dallas Mavs and Stars) is also deadsville. But it's in an urban neighborhood which is rather nice outside the plaza.

There are quite a few workers around there, and a hotel will be included, but I'd be surprised if it's used during the day.
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  #76  
Old Posted Feb 20, 2017, 4:23 AM
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Ballpark Village Phase II

The St. Louis Cardinals announced plans for a $220 million, 550,000 square foot second phase of Ballpark Village which will include the construction of a 29-story luxury high-rise residential tower, the first new Class-A office building built in downtown St. Louis in nearly thirty years, and additional retail, restaurant and entertainment space.



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  #77  
Old Posted Feb 21, 2017, 1:58 AM
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large plazas are like the "pedestrian mall"....already dated....they should develop these spaces to also include high density housing and some kind of retail or office function too.
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  #78  
Old Posted Feb 21, 2017, 2:22 AM
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large plazas are like the "pedestrian mall"....already dated....they should develop these spaces to also include high density housing and some kind of retail or office function too.
Context is important. This space known as Yerba Buena Park, on top of the Moscone center convention hall, gets crowded whenever temps break 70 degrees and the sun is out. I use this example rather than the more "plaza-like" (i.e. rectangluar) Union Square because the latter gets packed with tourists whereas Yerba Buena tends to be more locals except when there's a big convention in town.


https://www.google.com/search?q=Yerb...KnTHtaj-zUXIM:

A typical sunny day

http://yerbabuenagardens.com/map/

A special event

https://twitter.com/ybgfestival

Public open space can be critical in a dense downtown. Obviously, it can be a cop-out in a place that already has plenty but when the place doesn't, it can be a good choice.
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