Ontario Budget Suggestions????

[eternallyme]

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

You must be seeing a local anomoly. The public school system is gaining "market share", not losing. Both are seeing declining enrollment due to the aging population and declining birth rate, but it's falling faster in the Catholic board. Past 5 years have seen Catholic enrollment fall by 2.9%, public enrollment fall by 1.4%.

Source: http://www.edu.gov.on.ca/eng/general...Facts12_13.pdf

With an increasingly multicultural & secular province, it's only natural that Catholic enrollment will continue to decline.

The market share of all schools (my calculations for 2002-03 and 2011-12, Public + Catholic + Private = 100% or as close as possible, French included in above as it cannot be broken out:

Public: 65.0% 64.7%
Catholic: 30.1% 30.0%
French: 4.1% 4.6%
Private: 4.9% 5.3%

Interestingly, the market share for Catholic relative to Public has increased slightly, but both have declined slightly with private schools making up the difference. French schools (both Public and Catholic) have seen a noticeable increase as well - the English Public and English Catholic cannot be broken out with those numbers. The Ministry of Education does not give numbers on home-schooling.

[1overcosc]

I did the calculation for 2008-09 to 2012-13. From the late 1990s through to the mid-2000s Catholic enrollment increased relative to public, but since the mid-2000s its reversed.. and accelerated. Because the vast majority have students stay in the same system for the entire Ontario school career, elementary numbers are a hint of things to come. From 2011-12 to 2012-13, public elementary school enrollment actually **rose** by about 4,000 students... whereas Catholic elementary school enrollment fell by 2,000.

I haven't seen studies analyzing it at all, but I do know that in the late 1990s/early 2000s there was a trend of parents choosing the Catholic system for racist reasons--not wanting their children around immigrant families who tend to overwhelmingly choose the public system. I suspect that was the root cause of the Catholic gains in that era. I imagine the reversal was due to that trend petering out.

[eternallyme]

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

I did the calculation for 2008-09 to 2012-13. From the late 1990s through to the mid-2000s Catholic enrollment increased relative to public, but since the mid-2000s its reversed.. and accelerated. Because the vast majority have students stay in the same system for the entire Ontario school career, elementary numbers are a hint of things to come. From 2011-12 to 2012-13, public elementary school enrollment actually **rose** by about 4,000 students... whereas Catholic elementary school enrollment fell by 2,000.

I haven't seen studies analyzing it at all, but I do know that in the late 1990s/early 2000s there was a trend of parents choosing the Catholic system for racist reasons--not wanting their children around immigrant families who tend to overwhelmingly choose the public system. I suspect that was the root cause of the Catholic gains in that era. I imagine the reversal was due to that trend petering out.

Those same parents are probably the reason for increases in private education, and possibly to some extent in the French language system.

Some groups of immigrants, especially those from Hispanic/Latin American or some southern European countries would likely choose the Catholic system for cultural reasons as it is closer to their original culture.

[manny_santos]

Originally Posted by eternallyme

Alberta and Saskatchewan also give full funding. Not sure about others.

B.C. also provides partial funding to Catholic schools.

It is easy to forget that prior to 1985, Catholic schools were not fully funded by the province, it is not something that goes back to 1867. Full funding only existed up to Grade 9, and as a result many students who came through the Catholic system at the elementary level went to public high schools. In London, at the beginning of the 1980s, there was only one Catholic high school, and probably a dozen public high schools. By the end of 1990 there were 3 Catholic high schools plus one just outside the city serving part of the city.

[1overcosc]

One of the things I've noticed when contrasting Ottawa & Kingston is that it seems Catholic school enrollment is a lot higher in the former. In many areas of Ottawa the number of Catholic high schools and Public high schools is roughly equal. Kingston by contrast has 6 public high schools and only 2 Catholic ones... and one of those Catholic high schools is half-empty.

[manny_santos]

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

One of the things I've noticed when contrasting Ottawa & Kingston is that it seems Catholic school enrollment is a lot higher in the former. In many areas of Ottawa the number of Catholic high schools and Public high schools is roughly equal. Kingston by contrast has 6 public high schools and only 2 Catholic ones... and one of those Catholic high schools is half-empty.

Ottawa also does have a somewhat higher Catholic population as a percentage of the total population compared to Kingston - Kingston is 28% and Ottawa is 38%; the two Catholic churches I regularly go to in Kingston are both consistently only 20-50% full. London has a similar Catholic percentage to Kingston, and it has 12 public high schools (including Medway, just outside city limits) compared to 6 Catholic high schools.

Perhaps a more useful figure would be actual enrollment, as "number of schools" doesn't take capacity or actual enrollment into account.

[1overcosc]

Originally Posted by manny_santos

Ottawa also does have a somewhat higher Catholic population as a percentage of the total population compared to Kingston - Kingston is 28% and Ottawa is 38%; the two Catholic churches I regularly go to in Kingston are both consistently only 20-50% full. London has a similar Catholic percentage to Kingston, and it has 12 public high schools (including Medway, just outside city limits) compared to 6 Catholic high schools.

Perhaps a more useful figure would be actual enrollment, as "number of schools" doesn't take capacity or actual enrollment into account.

This is true, but I'm lazy, lol.

[swimmer_spe]

Ok, so instead of us continuing to bash the school funding.....

What else should be changed that would see more money available?

[MoreTrains]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

Ok, so instead of us continuing to bash the school funding.....

What else should be changed that would see more money available?

Change the pay scale so that no public service member earns more than the Premier, and get rid of any bonuses. As a public service employee your job should just get done, not compensated millions for reducing overhead costs by .25% (just a hypothetical example).

Yes, increase tax: PST, Corportate, Industrial and a Carbon Tax (The model where the offsets are neutral in price to lower income users... Cant remember the name).

No, decrease spending: Health and Education. (But should not increase spending either)

Yes, amalgamate the school boards. The reason is more to provide more funding to schools for students than the overhead at the administrative level. Theoretically this would allow us to keep the same number of teachers and schools (unless we sold a few to different denominations) while saving money at the upper levels. This would also allow for a better distribution of jurisdictions.

Yes, increase spending on infrastructure. Not roads necessarily, but transit and rail.

Yes, impose VATs on luxury items and maybe roll that in with the 'fat tax'.

Pretty much everything that has been mentioned before... lol

[MolsonExport]

Why are people so keen on cutting funding to programs that are essential to our economic future? Cut education? Are ye's daft?

The elderly already eat up a disproportionate and an ever-increasing amount of (healthcare) resources, without any prospect of these "investments" benefiting current and future economic growth. And it is only going to get worse and worse with the aging population. The youth today are getting completely shafted by the baby boomers and their parents, on so many levels. Every Western society, and a few Eastern ones as well, will have to face this extremely serious issue sooner or later.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

Why are people so keen on cutting funding to programs that are essential to our economic future? Cut education? Are ye's daft?

The elderly already eat up a disproportionate and an ever-increasing amount of (healthcare) resources, without any prospect of these "investments" benefiting current and future economic growth. And it is only going to get worse and worse with the aging population. The youth today are getting completely shafted by the baby boomers and their parents, on so many levels. Every Western society, and a few Eastern ones as well, will have to face this extremely serious issue sooner or later.

With 4 boards, you have 4 times the administrators. That is 4 times the cost.

They are closing the Public English schools and building new French or Catholic schools in the area around where I live.

If there is no net need for new schools to cover the the number of children, then you are wasting money.

[bornagainbiking]

Education is a top priority, but it is hugely funded, maybe overfunded as many hide within the sacred bubble. To even mention cuts will launch serious pushback and you need buy-in?
It is way pass due to take a serious look at trimming the BS administrative costs and focus on the sharp end of teaching.
To compare a similar example. Years ago I was working at an major intrnational event CBC was housed in the same hotel. There was a crew from CBC English, a crew from CBC French, a crew from CBC Radio English and RDI French. 4 crews 4X the wages, expences. In reality maybe one bilingual crew, I believe the equipment was non-specific.
So why so many school boards with individual school trustees and overhead. In some cities huge bldgs across the road from each other (Mississauga) Why not One board with delegates from Separate, English and French and same with Public system, How about Share school space, huge school separate wings, share gyms, labs shops the arts and music as well as theatre. Very close for inter school sports, no road trips or buses.

Another issue I have seen recently is get some government offices into the electronic age. They still prefer fax and snail mail. Not everone has a fax machine but laptops, scanners and tablets with photo capability. Not to mention time lost and cost of postage?
I was at a Dr office and forgot my kid's health card at home. My other daughter was at home and used her iphone to take a picture and text it to me, poof.
Try that with the government offices.
Get the information integrated Your health card is not really linked to your birth certificate so in some cases Service Ontario is a joke. Also they will not let you call the birth Certificae office in Thunder Bay instead bdeal with the 1-800 person in Toronto who will tell you to fax TB.
In the business world and I know security is paramount with health card fraud (hence integrate the information data bases) But at Canadas Wonderland I can get a season's pass with picture in 5 minutes or 5 mins get my pass port processed and at my home in under 7 days standard process not premium service charge, Premium is a couple days.
There are a millions suggestions if they just implement some?

[MolsonExport]

I find your posts difficult to read as you seem to always avoid using paragraphs to organize your thoughts. The result is that your posts appear as rants.

[bornagainbiking]

Too many years of writing in point form while doing interviews. I will attempt to modify my delivery presentation.
I am not meaninf to appear as a rant. I do see that there is cause and affect.
We complain about the state of affairs in Ontario but elected the current one into a majority???????
Thanks for the opinion.

[MoreTrains]

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

Why are people so keen on cutting funding to programs that are essential to our economic future? Cut education? Are ye's daft?

The elderly already eat up a disproportionate and an ever-increasing amount of (healthcare) resources, without any prospect of these "investments" benefiting current and future economic growth. And it is only going to get worse and worse with the aging population. The youth today are getting completely shafted by the baby boomers and their parents, on so many levels. Every Western society, and a few Eastern ones as well, will have to face this extremely serious issue sooner or later.

Not talking about cutting education, talking about streamlining and optimizing. For example, there are four school boards generally speaking. Public in English and French and Catholic in English and French.

Also generally speaking at the delivery end, they teach the exact same thing, with the exception of needing four religion courses to graduate at a Catholic High School.

If we were to take the Catholic Schoolboard and nix it (both French and English), we would be able to 'redraw' jurisdictions for the remaining school boards and with the same level of budget as currently, redirect more money into the delivery instead of the administration as there would only be two (or one) boards left to do the admin.

Alternativley, we could take those savings and redirect them into post-secondary funding to reduce tuition fees. Which again is not reducing funding to education, but optimizing it.

The only way that the government would be able to amalgamate the boards would be to hold a referendum. And in this day in age I am pretty sure the consensus would be to amalgamate. Cost savings on overhead to be redirected to the delivery. Pretty much a no-brainer.

[1overcosc]

Originally Posted by MoreTrains

The only way that the government would be able to amalgamate the boards would be to hold a referendum.

Nope. No referendum needed. The only thing needed is a province-specific constitutional amendment, which requires a majority vote at Queen's Park, and approval from the federal Parliament.

[MoreTrains]

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

Nope. No referendum needed. The only thing needed is a province-specific constitutional amendment, which requires a majority vote at Queen's Park, and approval from the federal Parliament.

Im talking reality not technicality. Any government that wanted to pursue this route would have a 99% probability of holding a referendum to use the 'We listened to you! The people, and are now going to commence amalgamation!'

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by MoreTrains

Im talking reality not technicality. Any government that wanted to pursue this route would have a 99% probability of holding a referendum to use the 'We listened to you! The people, and are now going to commence amalgamation!'

Did the Harris Government have a referendum when they decided to amalgamate the cities?

[MoreTrains]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

Did the Harris Government have a referendum when they decided to amalgamate the cities?

No... And?

According to Wiki there have only been two referendums in Ontario since 1924. One about the repeal of temprance and one about electoral reform.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by MoreTrains

No... And?

According to Wiki there have only been two referendums in Ontario since 1924. One about the repeal of temprance and one about electoral reform.

Why would the government do one for this issue?

History tells us they wouldn't.