When did Toronto pass Montreal?

[Docere]

A good history of the English-speaking minority in Quebec. In the mid-19th century they were the majority in Montreal, the Eastern Townships and Quebec side of the Ottawa Valley, and 40% of the population of Quebec City.

The proportion of English-speakers living in Montreal increased from 25% in the 1860s to over 80% in 2011.

https://www.thecanadianencyclopedia....aking-quebecer

[Razor]

Originally Posted by lio45

Rustbeltiness on a Canadian scale definitely exists, for example in the traditional steelmaking areas of Nova Scotia.

Same phenomenon, same reasons, smaller scale.

That's why I stated that it was more muted here..Nobody notices a handful of smaller centres vs major metros losing a few hundred thousand people + those Nova scotia cities are hardly abandoned.

[kool maudit]

Again, Montreal-as-New-Orleans (meaning Montreal-as-Toronto) would have been one of the Anglosphere's most captivating... gets... and it would have provided a very distinct and fascinating series of images and spaces for Canada.

But it was a hard ask even in 1915, when Toronto was still a pretty decent Melbourne quite apart from the language thing (the river wasn't the natural Erie canal it used to be, after all).

And it would have required the decapitation of the French fact in North America.

Nor worth it. I might have wavered in, say, 1999, when I was very attached to a certain metropolitan overlay coming to roost in Montreal, but 1999 was a very long time ago.

And plus I don't think the North American borders have reached their 22nd century form anyhow.

A lot can happen (sorry Francis).

[Doady]

Canada doesn't have people trying to escape from cities to suburbs, but that's only because the suburbs offer no escape. Look at poverty and crime and decay in Canada, it's mostly in the suburbs. Look at Toronto, the worst neighbourhoods are places like Malton, Rexdale, Jane-Finch, Malvern, all post-war neighbourhoods outside of the old city, far away from the TTC subway network. Look at the captive riders crowding onto the buses in even farther suburbs like Brampton because they are too poor to drive and own a car, it's even worse than Detroit. The difference is people in places like Detroit and Chicago have suburbs like Livonia, Naperville, Schaumburg to escape from all those social problems. In Canada, there is no such escape, so it is even worse than the USA.

[GreaterMontréal]

Originally Posted by Doady

Canada doesn't have people trying to escape from cities to suburbs, but that's only because the suburbs offer no escape. Look at poverty and crime and decay in Canada, it's mostly in the suburbs. Look at Toronto, the worst neighbourhoods are places like Malton, Rexdale, Jane-Finch, Malvern, all post-war neighbourhoods outside of the old city, far away from the TTC subway network. Look at the captive riders crowding onto the buses in even farther suburbs like Brampton because they are too poor to drive and own a car, it's even worse than Detroit. The difference is people in places like Detroit and Chicago have suburbs like Livonia, Naperville, Schaumburg to escape from all those social problems. In Canada, there is no such escape, so it is even worse than the USA.

Toronto might be the exception in Canada. Montreal dosen't have the same problem. Laval and Longueuil are Montreal's largest suburbs and both city are growing and modernazing with lots of investments in transit. All the cities on the North Shore and the South Shore are growing with no urban decay. The only urban decay is found on the island of Montreal in some neigtborhoods and are not considered ''suburbs''.

[MolsonExport]

Sprawl article (CBC) with images

We used AI to measure Canada’s urban sprawl

To combat climate change, cities need to control their urban sprawl and intensify population density. However, in the past two decades, the urbanized areas of major Canadian centres have grown by 34 per cent and their population density has fallen by six per cent.

9 urban areas featured

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by kool maudit

Again, Montreal-as-New-Orleans (meaning Montreal-as-Toronto) would have been one of the Anglosphere's most captivating... gets... and it would have provided a very distinct and fascinating series of images and spaces for Canada.

But it was a hard ask even in 1915, when Toronto was still a pretty decent Melbourne quite apart from the language thing (the river wasn't the natural Erie canal it used to be, after all).

And it would have required the decapitation of the French fact in North America.

Nor worth it. I might have wavered in, say, 1999, when I was very attached to a certain metropolitan overlay coming to roost in Montreal, but 1999 was a very long time ago.

And plus I don't think the North American borders have reached their 22nd century form anyhow.

A lot can happen (sorry Francis).

Montreal as a Canadian Buenos Aires lording over an immense land from the Atlantic to the Pacific was surely the dream of many a Montreal-based railway baron 150 years ago.

[Docere]

Originally Posted by kool maudit

Again, Montreal-as-New-Orleans (meaning Montreal-as-Toronto) would have been one of the Anglosphere's most captivating... gets... and it would have provided a very distinct and fascinating series of images and spaces for Canada.

But it was a hard ask even in 1915, when Toronto was still a pretty decent Melbourne quite apart from the language thing (the river wasn't the natural Erie canal it used to be, after all).

And it would have required the decapitation of the French fact in North America.

Nor worth it. I might have wavered in, say, 1999, when I was very attached to a certain metropolitan overlay coming to roost in Montreal, but 1999 was a very long time ago.

And plus I don't think the North American borders have reached their 22nd century form anyhow.

A lot can happen (sorry Francis).

Yeah, the US would have "Louisiana-ized" Quebec.

[lio45]

Even Anglo-Canada kinda does it, which is why the threat of our independence has to be kept around...

[MolsonExport]

Canadians think that Quebecois are spoiled.
Quebecois think that Canadians oppress Quebecois.
Quebecois think that Anglo Quebeckers are spoiled.
Anglo Quebeckers think that Quebecois oppress Anglo Quebeckers.
....

Sept en haut, svp.

[mrnyc]

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

Canadians think that Quebecois are spoiled.
Quebecois think that Canadians oppress Quebecois.
Quebecois think that Anglo Quebeckers are spoiled.
Anglo Quebeckers think that Quebecois oppress Anglo Quebeckers.
....

Sept en haut, svp.

and the french think of them as hillbillies.

i do defend quebecois against that with my french peeps though. i love my quebecois. i have a quebecois auntie so its even personal a bit.

besides, its much worse what the brits think of all of us, which is laughable.

[Docere]

Since Toronto and Montreal competed to be Canada's "big apple" I thought I'd pose this question here.

To the extent anyone cares or has an opinion on the matter, which Canadian city is more "on the radar" in NYC? Toronto or Montreal?

On the one hand, Montreal is closer to NYC and may be more of an "exotic" destination. There's also the connection between the Hasidim in both.

On the other hand, Toronto is English-speaking, clearly the larger city now and there's more connections through business, more immigrants which may have relatives in both places etc.

[DCReid]

Originally Posted by Docere

Since Toronto and Montreal competed to be Canada's "big apple" I thought I'd pose this question here.

To the extent anyone cares or has an opinion on the matter, which Canadian city is more "on the radar" in NYC? Toronto or Montreal?

On the one hand, Montreal is closer to NYC and may be more of an "exotic" destination. There's also the connection between the Hasidim in both.

On the other hand, Toronto is English-speaking, clearly the larger city now and there's more connections through business, more immigrants which may have relatives in both places etc.

Clearly, it's Toronto. The rivalry, if it ever existed, is over with Toronto winning. A more interesting question would be which city would be more on the radar with Boston, which is much closer to Montreal. Do New Englanders and upstate NYers go to Montreal for weekend trips? At least from my perception during my last visit, Montreal has recovered and starting to boom a little.

[Docere]

The size difference between Toronto and Montreal is similar to that of Chicago and Boston.

[Quixote]

Pardon my ignorance, but why did it take so long for Toronto to surpass Montreal? Why was Montreal even the foremost city in a predominantly English-speaking country?

[Docere]

Montreal is older and was the "eastern port city." Interestingly Montreal was more tied to British capital and Toronto to American capital. It was in the 1920s that Americans became bigger players than the British.

Until the 1950s, Montreal was the second largest English-speaking city in Canada (I think about a third were English-speaking). English was the language of business; the francophone majority were second class citizens in their own city. By the 1960s, you had the Quiet Revolution and the majority began to assert their rightful place.

[Docere]

Population history, 1881-1981.

Montreal

1881 140,727 (Island: 176,263)
1891 216,650 (Island: 277,525)
1901 267,730 (Island: 360,838)
1911 470,480 (Island: 554,761)
1921 618,506 (Island: 724,205)
1931 818,517 (Island: 1,003,868)
1941 903,007 (Island: 1,116,800)
1951 1,395,400
1961 2,109,509
1971 2,823,629
1981 2,828,349

Toronto

1881 86,415
1891 181,220
1901 208,040 (Greater Toronto: 238,080)
1911 378,538 (Greater Toronto: 409,925)
1921 521,893 (Greater Toronto: 611,443)
1931 631,207 (Greater Toronto: 818,348)
1941 667,567 (Greater Toronto: 909,928)
1951 1,117,470
1961 1,824,481
1971 2,699,827
1981 2,998,947

I use the CMA from 1951 on. Prior to that, Montreal Island and the current City of Toronto boundaries (Metro Toronto which came into place in 1954) are also included. Metro Toronto and CMA are the same in 1951.

Toronto as a % of Montreal

1881 61%
1891 84%
1901 64%
1911 74%
1921 84%
1931 82%
1941 81%
1951 80%
1961 86%
1971 96%
1981 106%

1881-1891: cities, 1901-1941: Greater Toronto/Montreal Island, 1951-1981: CMAs

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Docere

Montreal is older and was the "eastern port city." Interestingly Montreal was more tied to British capital and Toronto to American capital. It was in the 1920s that Americans became bigger players than the British.

Until the 1950s, Montreal was the second largest English-speaking city in Canada (I think about a third were English-speaking). English was the language of business; the francophone majority were second class citizens in their own city. By the 1960s, you had the Quiet Revolution and the majority began to assert their rightful place.

Canada was initially a French-speaking country and the modern-day "Canada" of 2023 was built upon the foundations of what started out as a French colony. As such it's perfectly logical for the first big city in the country to grow out of what was the largest French population centre. Especially since no rival "anglo" ones existed at the time.

After the British conquered Canada from France, the first British to come to this country in large numbers came to Montreal (and even to Quebec City for a time, though to a much lesser degree) and this is where they set up their first businesses.

For quite some time under British rule, the French population was still larger than the British one, and a huge part of the demographic story of Canada is a slow but steady slide of the once-dominant French-speaking population share, over a couple of centuries.

[Docere]

In 1871 (first census post-Confederation) Montreal was about 60/40 francophone/anglophone. At the time Montreal and Toronto actually had about equal numbers of English-speakers.

In the late 19th century, migration from the francophone hinterlands increased.