PHILADELPHIA | Lowrise/General Developments Thread

[skyscraper]

Originally Posted by hammersklavier

You do realize this is a contradiction in terms, yes? If something is unique, then only a small subset of cities have it.

No, if something is unique, then *no one* else has it. Unique means one of a kind.

Originally Posted by hammersklavier

I agree that with the all-but-hostile relationship the Sixers have with Comcast-Spectacor,they might be looking to build a new arena in the future.

What does "all but hostile" mean? Is their relationship hostile or isn't it?

Originally Posted by hammersklavier

But of course, we all know what'll actually happen is New Jersey lures them with a free arena on the old Riversharks field site instead.

Campbell Field isn't going to be demolished, it's still going to be used by Rutgers Camden. Plus they are still going to try to find a minor league tenant.

[hammersklavier]

Originally Posted by skyscraper

No, if something is unique, then *no one* else has it. Unique means one of a kind.

It's funny how nitpickery can kill context. For example, my very next sentence was:

Originally Posted by hammersklavier

IOW by your argument Philadelphia is unique in that it doesn't have a downtown or downtwon-adjacent arena or stadium.

P.S. Keep in mind that while "unique" is derived from the Latin for "one of a kind", in spoken English it has semantically shifted ... because we already have the Germanic phrase "one of a kind".

What does "all but hostile" mean? Is their relationship hostile or isn't it?

It means that even though nobody's come out and said it, the evidence of hostility is clearly there.

Campbell Field isn't going to be demolished, it's still going to be used by Rutgers Camden. Plus they are still going to try to find a minor league tenant.

You, sir, just provided a good example of Poe's Law.

[skyscraper]

Originally Posted by hammersklavier

P.S. Keep in mind that while "unique" is derived from the Latin for "one of a kind", in spoken English it has semantically shifted ... because we already have the Germanic phrase "one of a kind".

Just because you misuse the word doesn't mean its meaning has "shifted." Unique means one of a kind. There is enough room in the language for both the word and the phrase.

[hammersklavier]

Originally Posted by skyscraper

Just because you misuse the word doesn't mean its meaning has "shifted." Unique means one of a kind. There is enough room in the language for both the word and the phrase.

Funny then, how, when I say "Hrothgar mathelode, helm Scyldinga: 'Ne frin thu aefter saelum; sorh is geniwod denigea leodum'," I understand absolutely nothing that just came out of my mouth. Oh, but that's right, language doesn't change.

For reference, that's the sentence at Beowulf 371 in the original.

[skyscraper]

Originally Posted by hammersklavier

Funny then, how, when I say "Hrothgar mathelode, helm Scyldinga: 'Ne frin thu aefter saelum; sorh is geniwod denigea leodum'," I understand absolutely nothing that just came out of my mouth. Oh, but that's right, language doesn't change.

For reference, that's the sentence at Beowulf 371 in the original.

I don't think I said that language doesn't change, what I said was that just because you misuse a word doesn't mean that its meaning has shifted.

[Parkway]

I've always associated downtown ballparks with cities that have struggling downtown areas. Cleveland, Baltimore, Detroit, at the time Denver. I'm actually glad that we didn't dedicate several city blocks to a ballpark and parking that will sit empty for half the year. We have plenty of institutions and attractions that generate interest in Center City.

[McBane]

I despise the Revolutionary War Museum design. Housing a museum about the Revolutionary War in a colonial designed building is so cliche. But on top of that, they're using super cheapo materials, because the backers could barely get this project off the ground in the first place. It looks awful.

I agree with the previous post (and had mentioned this a few pages back). Downtown stadiums have typically been used as a economic development scheme in struggling cities that need the boost and have the space. And in this day and age, no community anywhere wants a stadium built in or near their neighborhood. Wrigley, Yankee, and Fenway were built in a different era. Residents don't complain about them because they were built before they were born. And for Cubs, Sox, and Yankee fans, taking transit to the game is like a tradition. Remember, those ballparks were built before car ownership became widespread. I've been to all three and was just floored to see how few parking lots there were. That setup is something very unique to those cities that can't be replicated. That's why I am nostalgic for Connie Mack Stadium and what could have been.

[tsarstruck]

Originally Posted by summersm343

Why would we WANT a ballpark/stadium downtown? Seems like a waste of valuable space where mixed use developments could go. No way is 23rd & Arch lot large enough to hold a ballpark. Also absolutely no way the streets could hold that traffic congestion here... it's too far from Public transit and too far from a highway on/off ramp.

Instead of demoing the parks in South Philly and building waste-of-space ball parks downtown, why doesn't the city upzone the vast seas of parking lots in South Philly around the stadiums and we'll build a mixed-use high-rise district down by the stadiums?

Many of the proposed locations wouldn't really have impacted the city negatively, but ship sailed regardless.

It's true that the lots for the parking lots for the Phils and Eagles currently don't allow residential development, but even ignoring the zoning, it's a complicated set of puzzle pieces to put together. The PCPC's Lower South district plan did in fact recommend laying the groundwork for this transition, although I doubt much has happened since then (March 2012):

The sports complex can grow into a neighborhood center over time (15–20 years) while still fulfilling its role as a metropolitan subcenter (see p. 30). This longer-term goal is possible due to AT&T Station’s direct connections to Center City, the entire SEPTA system, and with an extension, the Navy Yard (see p. 43). A TOD plan for portions of the current surface parking lots, as called for in the Citywide Vision, would guide and manage growth while minimizing potential impacts. A new street system (see p. 55), and the inclusion of structured parking in new developments to replace surface parking spaces will improve circulation and create a safer and stronger pedestrian environment when tied with transit improvements. These long-range transit improvements include extension of the BSL to the Navy ard, potential light rail connections, and direct mass transit service to New Jersey.

A more diverse mix of uses and activities, including residential buildings along Broad Street and Pattison Avenue, would allow the residential density necessary to attract neighborhood businesses like food markets, a gym, and professional services, that neighbors desire now. With careful planning and smart phasing of development, the sports complex can become both an entertainment center worthy of the sports teams that define the area as well as a desirable area for future households seeking a vibrant and exciting place to live.

Currently, the SP-STA zoning district and governing lease agreements between the City and the sports complex operators does not permit residential development by-right and precisely details parking requirements and provisions. To facilitate the long-range TOD vision for the sports complex, any changes to these legal documents would necessitate numerous
stakeholder meetings and public hearings before both City Council and the CPC. The realization of such a TOD scheme for the sports complex may be 15–20 years away, but first steps must be taken now to ensure that development occurs in a rational way that respects current residents by balancing the needs of near neighbors and larger economic development goals.

http://phila2035.org/pdfs/FinalLowerSouth.pdf

[br323206]

Originally Posted by McBane

I despise the Revolutionary War Museum design. Housing a museum about the Revolutionary War in a colonial designed building is so cliche. But on top of that, they're using super cheapo materials, because the backers could barely get this project off the ground in the first place. It looks awful.

I agree with the previous post (and had mentioned this a few pages back). Downtown stadiums have typically been used as a economic development scheme in struggling cities that need the boost and have the space. And in this day and age, no community anywhere wants a stadium built in or near their neighborhood. Wrigley, Yankee, and Fenway were built in a different era. Residents don't complain about them because they were built before they were born. And for Cubs, Sox, and Yankee fans, taking transit to the game is like a tradition. Remember, those ballparks were built before car ownership became widespread. I've been to all three and was just floored to see how few parking lots there were. That setup is something very unique to those cities that can't be replicated. That's why I am nostalgic for Connie Mack Stadium and what could have been.

For me, and countless others judging by the crowds on the BSL, taking transit to Phils games is also a tradition. The ride on the BSL is definitely a part of the game day experience for many.

[Philly-Drew]

Originally Posted by br323206

For me, and countless others judging by the crowds on the BSL, taking transit to Phils games is also a tradition. The ride on the BSL is definitely a part of the game day experience for many.

For me it is, also with the Phillies and Eagles too.

[McBane]

Yea, the BSL is always packed on game days. But you can't argue with these Google Earth views:

Citizens Bank Park: https://goo.gl/maps/bUXmeAU3dym
Fenway: https://goo.gl/maps/zLosvVDFZJp
Yankee: https://goo.gl/maps/H2hoyQziRt52
Wrigley: https://goo.gl/maps/jxxYQDnXrpP2

The people packing on the BSL notwithstanding, the bulk of people drive to South Philly whereas the majority of fans attending Sox/Yankees/Cubs games are taking transit. And it's something that's ingrained in the culture. Hence, when downtown stadiums were proposed, the masses were not saying, "Oh great, I can stop driving to games and rely on SEPTA!" No, they were groaning about the difficulty of parking and congestion of Center City. It's been touched on throughout this forum, but we've all acknowledged that for an east coast city with an extensive mass transit system, Philadelphians are still in love with their cars.

[Noam215]

Hey all, a little off topic, but I was wondering if there's anyone here who can speak to the need for the 676 bridge renovations.
From a layman's point of view they looked in reasonably good shape.
Are these repairs legit or are they more of a stimulus/political palm greasing union thing?

[1487]

Originally Posted by Noam215

Hey all, a little off topic, but I was wondering if there's anyone here who can speak to the need for the 676 bridge renovations.
From a layman's point of view they looked in reasonably good shape.
Are these repairs legit or are they more of a stimulus/political palm greasing union thing?

decisions about bridge replacement are not made like that. The bridges being replaced are from the 50s and were found to be structurally deficient. PennDOT (this state gov is mostly controlled by republicans) isn't going to spend $60M to help out any unions.

[Noam215]

Ah I see tnx!

[blorkishdork]

My company worked on that project and I can speak from direct experience, those bridges were in awful condition. They were on something like a monthly inspection schedule (2 year schedules are the norm). So yes, those bridges were in awful condition.

[allovertown]

Originally Posted by Noam215

Hey all, a little off topic, but I was wondering if there's anyone here who can speak to the need for the 676 bridge renovations.
From a layman's point of view they looked in reasonably good shape.
Are these repairs legit or are they more of a stimulus/political palm greasing union thing?

Strange assumption. For the record, Pennsylvania leads the nation in structurally deficient bridges. The idea that Penndot world replace a bridge unnecessarily is pretty far off base. Even if this was an infrastructure stimulus there are plenty of bridges legitimately in need of repair before it would come to that.

http://www.bizjournals.com/pittsburg...-comes-to.html

[Mappy]

Originally Posted by Philly Fan

Check out this webcam--updates every hour, I believe:

http://www.earthcam.net/projects/intech/amrevmuseum/

cheers!
thats a lot further along than i though it was

[1487]

Reading through the ZBA hearings list I came across something minor which led me to check on some other Broad street stuff.

655 N Broad will add 18 units and bicycle parking

631 N. Broad has permits for addition to create apt building with 41 units with balconies

142 N. Broad is getting a 4 story addition and will become a 116 unit apt building.

[EastSideHBG]

Originally Posted by Parkway

I've always associated downtown ballparks with cities that have struggling downtown areas. Cleveland, Baltimore, Detroit, at the time Denver. I'm actually glad that we didn't dedicate several city blocks to a ballpark and parking that will sit empty for half the year. We have plenty of institutions and attractions that generate interest in Center City.

Baltimore has a struggling downtown?!?

I like DT ballparks if done right, "close enough to DT" ballparks are a nice compromise as well (but Philly's isn't really THAT far off in my book). However, in Philly an entire culture would need to shift as some of you have touched on already and we could stand to lose a lot with the shift (the crazy tailgating culture, etc.). I say just leave as is and build up that area or something.

[Parkway]

Originally Posted by EastSideHBG

Baltimore has a struggling downtown?!?

I was thinking about when the started construction on Camden Yards in 1990. If I had to put the stadium somewhere else, I would probably chose Delaware Ave and Spring Garden. That is the type of area that could use the sort of boost in traffic that a ballpark would provide.