AUSTIN | Transportation Updates

[Novacek]

Originally Posted by M1EK

Apparently yesterday's post got deleted.

That's what happens when you break the ToS

Originally Posted by M1EK

The plan was a bad plan - because its first line was going to massively increase operating costs per passenger compared to even average bus service (just like the Red Line did),

The Red Line didn't. Long distance commuter service is just expensive, that's what happens when you have a single person in a seat for an hour. Just like the pre-existing commuter bus service from Leander. Just like all the other commuter bus service.

Try comparing per passenger-mile.

Originally Posted by M1EK

2..N. No, this wasn't beaten because of "money in the game" - all the money in the game was on the pro side; you can see who donated what if you check the media, and trust me, the big money was on the pro side.

So I just imagined all those anti-prop 1 adds? The ones paid for by highway developers? I just imagined the anti-prop 1 adds at all the car dealerships?

They certainly thought people were going to ride it, and reduce their usage of cars.

[KevinFromTexas]

Originally Posted by M1EK

Apparently yesterday's post got deleted.

Make your argument, but do it without insults, guys.

[drummer]

In some ways, I'd prefer you guys take this bantering to the private messages. I respect that you both are more aware of things than me - and I do learn a lot from you both. However, it's getting beyond helpful to the rest of us for you two to hash out your differences of opinion and make everyone else scroll through it to get to relevant stuff.

[wwmiv]

Originally Posted by M1EK

When even I find you too exhausting to reply to, you may want to reevaluate your life choices.

Yet another personal attack. Kevin, for the love of God please ban this guy. I've been begging you for years to do so because his rhetoric is almost all personal attacks, and I think it's finally come to the point where it HAS to happen.

[The ATX]

Originally Posted by wwmiv

Yet another personal attack. Kevin, for the love of God please ban this guy. I've been begging you for years to do so because his rhetoric is almost all personal attacks, and I think it's finally come to the point where it HAS to happen.

I'm not a fan of this guy, but your post history is suspect as well. The Austin subforum has turned into nitpicking and snarky comments of late. And don't let me get started on the Nazi style moderation going on in the SA forum that has continued up until the last couple of hours. That is really pathetic. I'm just about ready to give up on SSP.

[wwmiv]

Originally Posted by The ATX

I'm not a fan of this guy, but your post history is suspect as well. The Austin subforum has turned into nitpicking and snarky comments of late. And don't let me get started on the Nazi style moderation going on in the SA forum that has continued up until the last couple of hours. That is really pathetic. I'm just about ready to give up on SSP.

I know I can get snarky, that much is obvious to any frequenter... But I try (maybe I fail sometimes, sure) to avoid personal attacks.

[Novacek]

So how about an actual fact-based evaluation of the Red Line, its pros/cons, its first 5 years and its future. Anyone?


Disclosure: I've ridden it a few times. As has come up before, I've a reverse/sometimes biking commute, and it's unlikely any future rail service would ever serve it. So I'm mostly impartial in that regard, wanting only what's best for Austin as a whole. Though if service greatly expands scope and hours, maybe I'd ride it on occasion to get to/from downtown.


Pro: CapMetro has managed to retain it's 1/4 cent "rail tax" (since 2004, after the rail initiative passed) and there hasn't been any more pushes to remove it since 2004.

Con : pretty significant cost overruns in initial construction.

Con : no federal funding in the initial construction (though this has become something of a wash with the subsequent tiger/txdot grants).

Pro: Some pretty significant peak commuter traffic removed from the roads (compared to vehicles per hour for a standard lane), to whatever extent that riders weren't previously riding transit.

Pro: previous transit riders moved off the road and onto the rail, freeing up some (limited) capacity

Con: diesel rather than electric, which limits environmental benefits (still better than single passenger vehicles, but probably no better than buses).

Pro: some (though still limited) economic/property development. Plaza Saltillo still TBD. Given historic neighborhood association resistance, I question if the Crestview PUD would have been allowed to be even as dense as it is without the rail.

Pro: some pretty significant peak capacity during special events (ACL, SxSW, etc.), which takes some pressure off the roads.

Con: No real potential for expansion south/across the river.

Pro: still significant demand (standing room only at rush hour) and more potential for expansion, especially long term (with further growth to the north, Robinson Ranch development, etc.)

Pro: potential for expansion east (manor/bastrop) which is the city's preferred growth direction (for environmental reasons).

Pro: freight capacity of the line has been retained, which brings in some pretty significant money to CapMetro each year.

Con: high per-passenger subsidy (though as I've noted, this is true for all commuter services).

Pro: currently part of the city's anti-drunk-driving initiatives, and potential for more (expanded hours, more nights, etc.)

[East7thStreet]

Originally Posted by The ATX

I'm not a fan of this guy, but your post history is suspect as well. The Austin subforum has turned into nitpicking and snarky comments of late. And don't let me get started on the Nazi style moderation going on in the SA forum that has continued up until the last couple of hours. That is really pathetic. I'm just about ready to give up on SSP.

......Compared to the rest of the internet this is one of the most civil and intelligent places to be.

Just from my own personal experiences with the Red Line (I live very close to the Crestview Station) it has vastly improved in ridership. It actually gets very crowded during rush hour but is still fairly empty in the middle of the day. It will be interesting to see if the higher prices will hurt ridership.

[tie_guy]

http://www.bizjournals.com/austin/ne...x.html?ana=fbk


Interesting concept. Basically like "The Wire" (the gondolas) idea, but looks more practical. Thoughts?

[drummer]

I don't know much about PRT. It seems like it would need lots of the smaller vehicles to make up for the massive amount of people that can fit into a train. How many people can fit into those? However, it seems doable. I don't know if it's too much in the unknown category for folks who already fear normal mass transit, however...

[Novacek]

Originally Posted by tie_guy

http://www.bizjournals.com/austin/ne...x.html?ana=fbk


Interesting concept. Basically like "The Wire" (the gondolas) idea, but looks more practical. Thoughts?

My thoughts are along the lines of "if it sounds too good to be true".

If they can build it cheaper "than light rail by a factor of 10 times" and "without putting taxpayers at risk" (which presumably means not publicly funded) then great. Awesome. I'll line up day one to ride it.

But they're basically claiming to do something that no other transportation system (including roads) has managed to do. Ever. Anywhere in the world. Fast, cheap, convenient, safe, unsubsidized.

[MichaelB]

Cool thought. Wrong location.
Why UT... students who alread walk, bike, bus on their own routes.
Not needed. They are not the issue.
Need to either be in, or connect to, downtown ( and now capitol complex/Dell hospital)
That is where you have communters who want to be able to get around quicker and leave their cars either home... or in one location.
This could be the "connector" I hear most people need to be willing to give up a car downtown.
Great idea... wrong location.

[Tech House]

I love the PRT concept. It's like a compromise between buses, gondolas, and elevated rail. It's plainly more flexible and modular than rail, far more efficient than buses, and faster than gondolas. As far as I can see, it looks like the best of all possible solutions, especially because it relieves traffic without interfering with ground-level transit.

If only Garriott were as rich as Warren Buffet, he'd be like a cross between Elon Musk and Paul Allen --- big, flashy, fun, innovative tech on a grand scale. Seems like Musk or Allen would be suitable investors for a project like this, although Allen is so partial to Seattle that he'd want it built there instead.

Speaking of Seattle and PRT, here's some PRT number crunching as applied to Seattle by an advocacy group there: http://kinetic.seattle.wa.us/nxtlevel/prt/capacity.html
And here's a video of a PRT system that is in use at London's Heathrow airport: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_rFvoxMTS4Y
I would think it could be a lot faster without sacrificing safety.

[Novacek]

Originally Posted by Tech House

I love the PRT concept. It's like a compromise between buses, gondolas, and elevated rail. It's plainly more flexible and modular than rail, far more efficient than buses, and faster than gondolas. As far as I can see, it looks like the best of all possible solutions, especially because it relieves traffic without interfering with ground-level transit.

If only Garriott were as rich as Warren Buffet, he'd be like a cross between Elon Musk and Paul Allen --- big, flashy, fun, innovative tech on a grand scale. Seems like Musk or Allen would be suitable investors for a project like this, although Allen is so partial to Seattle that he'd want it built there instead.

Speaking of Seattle and PRT, here's some PRT number crunching as applied to Seattle by an advocacy group there: http://kinetic.seattle.wa.us/nxtlevel/prt/capacity.html
And here's a video of a PRT system that is in use at London's Heathrow airport: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_rFvoxMTS4Y
I would think it could be a lot faster without sacrificing safety.

That Seattle advocacy page displays a startling lack of understanding of basic physics.

" Yes, only 10 minutes. Remember, "forget everything you thought you knew about mass transit." In this case, PRT trips take less time because they are non-stop. At 35mph, a 10 minute PRT trip covers 5.8 miles, not a bad estimate for an average."

Which would be great if the PRT cars could instantaneously start and accelerate, never had to slow down for turns (remember, the plan is to follow existing RoW), never got bunched up at particular stations, etc.)

[hereinaustin]

Originally Posted by Tech House

And here's a video of a PRT system that is in use at London's Heathrow airport: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_rFvoxMTS4Y

I think a big part of why the cost per mile is so low is that the guideway it uses is not super substantial. Also, won't these things get hot on the inside? I'm doubting that the battery pack on it can power an air conditioner as well as move 6 people around all day.

The Statesman has an article showing the proposed system covering UT. It pretty much runs along the perimeter of campus, but misses the central portion of the campus.

All that being said, if the only cost to tax payers is providing Garriott with easements, I'm down. True, there are probably opportunity costs as well, but it doesn't sound like anyone else is proposing anything for free.

[airwx]

West Virginia University has had a fairly successful PRT on campus since 1975, however it's now starting to really show it's age. http://transportation.wvu.edu/prt

[_Matt]

I'm all for innovation, but this seems like the 1970's version of the future of transportation.

Huge capital investment to build permanent raised tracks with finite capacity? I predict some variant of self-driving vehicles would supplant the need for this project before it even comes online. Software on top of existing infrastructure is an amazing thing.

[Novacek]

Originally Posted by airwx

West Virginia University has had a fairly successful PRT on campus since 1975, however it's now starting to really show it's age. http://transportation.wvu.edu/prt

West Virginia shows that a system like that can be successful and move people.

However, I think it definitely casts doubt on those cost estimates and hopes of doing it with no public money.

The WVU system was constructed for $130M in 1975/79 dollars. Garriot's basically claiming to implement it cheaper, in 2015 dollars. In a much more constrained urban environment. Fully elevated.


hereinaustin, can you link to that map you mentioned? Or is it behind the paywall as well as the article?

[smt1]

Originally Posted by Jdawgboy

Point is the Southside may not be the center of the population but the growth is indeed shifting south. Hays County is the fastest growing county in the nation, the southside is experiencing rapid growth. Combine the two and the traffic situation is really going down hill.

Is it? Williamson County is growing extremely fast as well, and has a lot more population than Hays County. Not to mention the growth of the northern reaches of the city proper. The Austin MSA's population center is distinctly moving northwards:
http://urbanscale.com/wp-content/upl...Region-Map.png

[drummer]

I've always heard it's shifting slightly north and northwest (metro growth, that is). It makes sense that the extreme growth in Hays County will challenge that, but I didn't realize it was making that much of a difference already.