ATLANTA TRANSIT (Marta, Beltline, Peachtree Streetcar, LovJoy Commuter, etc...)

[Tombstoner]

Originally Posted by MarketsWork

Atlanta is ... doing just fine as the city it is.

I think this is the crux of disagreement. MarketsWork think Atlanta is hunky-dory (as do lots of folks) others think Atlanta is a sprawling, soul-less, hell-hole (as do lots of folks) and others are somewhere in between. One thing is for sure, if you think Atlanta's "doing just fine as the city it is" you will NEVER agree with people that think it should be better. If you think Atlanta could be VASTLY improved, you will never convince its boosters otherwise. If you agree with the boosters, you have the city you deserve.

[SteveD]

Originally Posted by cabasse

steve that makes no sense, considering that there are other freeway ramps within blocks of 17th? i agree with fisp, it's because it's a new connection across the river.

Well, we'll have to agree to disagree, and I'm OK with that. If you think that area would be enjoying the same amount of interest that it is absent the direct connection to the downtown connector, I'd have to say that your position would be the one that "makes no sense".

[AtlMidtowner]

I live 5 blocks from the 17th STreet bridge. Under no cirumstance is it restoring a old connection. Atlantic Station was a massive steel yard!!!! The bridge allows Atlantic Station to develop and allows better, quick and easy access to Midtown. Just sit on the bridge one day and you will see most of the traffic is not between Atlantic Station and Midtown, but for people trying to avoid the 14th STreet and 10th Street bottleneck and people visiting and shopping (not working or living) in Atlantic Station.

I dont know what your maps come from, and I thought I was the old fart on this board. Or I dont know when you guys drove to Washington, DC, but I-395 goes almost directly to the Potomac in DC. and I-66 and I-97 bring people into downtown DC. Chicago has I-90, I-94 and I-88 going directly into downtown Chicago. New YOrk City has interstates and expressway right into Manhattan. And these are cities with good public transportation systems. Atlanta has bassically no real public transportation. I challenge you to find one city in the US with population over 4 million that doesnt have limited access highways going directly into the downtown areas.

If you dont want to live in a big city where highways are not necessary, move to the mountains, as my father did.

[AtlMidtowner]

Oh, I forgot Detroit, it has I-94, I-75 and I-96 going DIRECTLY to downtown.....need I go on to make the point. There is not American city that can function with out have a good infrastructure that must have, but not necessarily limited to, a good highway system. The urban areas would really die and the suburbs would sprawl even more if noone could reach the downtown areas efficiently.

I am not against public transportation; however, at this stage in our development, a the maintenance of a good limited access highway system is just as, if not much more important to large cities economic viability.

We live in big cities, not a bunch of little villages (neighborhoods) close together. No one neighborhood is autonomous and independent of other parts of the city. (another topic.....we should have one metropolitian government, not seventeen counties and who knows how many cities).

[Andrea]

What Joey said.

[CityFan]

Originally Posted by RobMidtowner

If anything at all, I'm still a fan of building over the connector by connecting bridges with parks etc. and reconnecting the east and west sides of the city.

I agree with your posts 100%. If people think it logically, it's easy to find the answer to the question whether we need downtown connector. If there was no traffic congestion and fewer cars going through the freeway, it's feasible to tear down the freeway. However the reality is oppoiste which tells me that users benefit from the freeway. Before we can build a subsitute system to replace the freeway, we should appreciate it for booming economy it has brought to our life. People are more than willing to live in the places near by freeway. One way I would think to make me feel better is that pretending the freeway is a natural river cutting through downtown. Overpasses are very expensive to build. The financial resources ought to be used for much needed projects.

[CityFan]

Originally Posted by fisp

your example exactly backs that up... just by restoring the link across the connector at 17th street, you can see development booming around that area in midtown

Your theory also backs the freeway which booms the entire region. Think this way a single tree and a forest, which deserves priority?

[fisp]

Originally Posted by SteveD

Well, we'll have to agree to disagree, and I'm OK with that. If you think that area would be enjoying the same amount of interest that it is absent the direct connection to the downtown connector, I'd have to say that your position would be the one that "makes no sense".

that's awful. you say you agree to disagree and then you insult the other person saying their view "makes no sense". certainly the area around 5th st. (tech. sq.) is booming because it has direct access to tech across 5th st. there is no ramp there and yet things are taking off. also, the area behind crawford long (between crawford and the highway) has some of the highest density of your fabulous ramps yet it is a *no man's land* because there is absolutely nothing but a sea of highway and ramps all over the place.

[joey]

Originally Posted by AtlMidtowner

I dont know what your maps come from, and I thought I was the old fart on this board. Or I dont know when you guys drove to Washington, DC, but I-395 goes almost directly to the Potomac in DC. and I-66 and I-97 bring people into downtown DC. Chicago has I-90, I-94 and I-88 going directly into downtown Chicago. New YOrk City has interstates and expressway right into Manhattan. And these are cities with good public transportation systems. Atlanta has bassically no real public transportation. I challenge you to find one city in the US with population over 4 million that doesnt have limited access highways going directly into the downtown areas.

Ignoring your minor inaccuracies re: the DC highway system, I agree, but that's Andrea's (and my, I guess) point. It's desirable for expressways to bring people into the city, but they can do more damage than good when they slice through a city.

I-66 ends within yards of crossing the Potomac. I-395 ends within about 1-2 miles of crossing the Potomac (while tunnelling under or avoiding most of downtown), and DC/I-295 skirts to the east, mostly on the other side of the Anacostia River. None of these provide a direct route through downtown Washington.

Likewise, I-495 was cancelled in Manhattan, so while the Lincoln and Queens Midtown Tunnels bring people into New York, there is no freeway slicing across the island there as a through route.

Knowing what we know today, if I could have set up the Atlanta intown freeway plan originally, I would have kept the old two-lane dual carriageway I-85 routing in Atlanta (what is today the Buford Highway Connector) north of Brookwood and had it curve around northwest to make a continuous loop with I-75 (which would have remained a total of four lanes) back up toward the Perimeter. This intown I-75/I-85 loop would have been instead numbered as some interstate 3di loop like I-885. I-75 would have run along the Perimeter west of the city and I-85 on the Perimeter east of the city. I would have run I-20 instead on an alignment further south, perhaps where Lakewood/Langdord Freeway is now, eliminated the Connector north of about Turner Field, and also not built I-85 inside the perimeter south of the Connector.



The northern intown loop (I-885 in my example) might have been built to allow only HOV traffic in the peak directions at the peak times (much like I-66 is HOV-only at certain times of day).

As a result, access to some of the more low-density areas north of Midtown would remain available in a freeway form, while encouraging carpooling and transit use during peak hours (if it had HOV restrictions). Commuters working in Midtown or Downtown would transfer off of the northern intown loop to arterial roads like Northside Drive (with excess capacity) and Spring and Williams Streets. Those looking to go south of the city could take the Perimeter around.

I really don't see how this would have been all that miserable of a solution had it been built that way originally. Now, as much as I personally would like to see the Connector eliminated (in a "Can I have a pony?" sort of way), I don't see it as feasible or practical now that it's there. If anything, I'd like to see it reduced from 14 lanes, perhaps, to 6-8, with both directions running on the existing western carriageway. The eastern carriageway could then be reclaimed for parks or buildable land. Perhaps even a serious boulevard could be constructed.

[cabasse]

tombstoner, i completely agree with your comments re atlanta being hunky-dory as is.

Originally Posted by SteveD

Well, we'll have to agree to disagree.

that works... i hope it didn't sound like i was claiming to be an expert on the matter, and in reality it's probably somewhere in between what fisp and you are stating. also, after just rereading my post, i didn't think about how condescending my comment would sound, so i do feel a need to apologize for that.

atlmidtowner, do you really think there's a way to tell what individual people are doing in traffic on 17th street bridge? (not that this discredits your statement or anything) i do disagree with a few of your other statements though. 1) i think many would argue your comment about atlanta having no real public transportation... DETROIT has no real public transportation. (but even that could be argued) 2) from looking at various online maps, the closest freeway to downtown chicago is the eisenhower, but that closes down to congress pkwy after crossing the river. 3) i think you misunderstood my comments about detroit. i think the freeway situation up here is much worse, considering how many there are that meet in various places around downtown and midtown here. all i was trying to say is that detroit's road network, sans the multitude of freeways up here still beats atlanta's entire road network. (including freeways) all the other points you made are based on a generally opposing viewpoint, and probably something we'll never agree on. joey said it best - the freeways have shaped the growth of the city, but they aren't the cause.

If you dont want to live in a big city where highways are not necessary, move to the mountains, as my father did.

you make it sound as if highways and big cities are like cause and effect. that's just an opinion!


i gotta say, it's very interesting once everyone's opinions are voiced...

[cabasse]

joey, i love your map; i'd love to see 20 rerouted to connect from where langford and the connector meet south of downtown to 20 on the east side, and all of that massive 20/75-85 interchange and other roads removed...what a huge waste of space. that would entail building some sort of connection, but wouldn't gdot just be ecstatic about laying more assphalt.

[SteveD]

Originally Posted by fisp

that's awful. you say you agree to disagree and then you insult the other person saying their view "makes no sense". .

fisp, please pay closer attention. Didn't you see my use of quotation marks? Who insulted who first? Go back and read the progression of threads before you call my post "awful". Cabasse and I are having a civil discourse...I didn't feel "insulted" and I don't think he did either.

[SteveD]

Joey, thanks for that map and that discussion. Very interesting. You know, I heard or read somewhere that the original plan was to link I-675 and GA 400. I've got to think that the southern portion of that proposed alignment would have run substantially along Moreland Ave. Since I now live just off of Moreland Ave. in Ormewood Park, I shudder to think of the destruction that route would have caused!

[smArTaLlone]

Originally Posted by joey

Oh, and to clear up some of the differences (I think?) between Andrea and the others, there's no doubt that the freeway system in the Atlanta region has at least shaped growth in the area. Whether it's encouraged growth or not, I'm not confident either way. Without any sort of expressway network, growth certainly would have taken a different form (probably greater density and connectivity closer in).

Certainly the freeway system has shaped the way the region has grown. People keep saying that Atlanta has too low density to support mass transit as if it just happened organically.


The way the density is discouraged in zoning and the focus of the state roads in the region is what has created the least dense big city in the world. This is the anomaly not the norm and I find it hard to believe that anyone cannot see the problems that this development pattern has created.

[CityFan]

Originally Posted by smArTaLlone

The way the density is discouraged in zoning and the focus of the state roads in the region is what has created the least dense big city in the world. This is the anomaly not the norm and I find it hard to believe that anyone cannot see the problems that this development pattern has created.

It might be true the zoning policy has been playing a major role in the least density. However I believe that horizontal develempent keeps housing price down which brings a booming economy to Atlanta. High density comes with a higher price which will prevent majority of people from moving to Atlanta. Often we hear people talk about high housing prices in New York. I don't think we ever want this to happen in Atlanta at this stage which will choke it's development. Atlanta is a big city, but by its population it's still an infant big city.

[MarketsWork]

Originally Posted by smArTaLlone

The way the density is discouraged in zoning and the focus of the state roads in the region is what has created the least dense big city in the world. This is the anomaly not the norm and I find it hard to believe that anyone cannot see the problems that this development pattern has created.

Likewise, I find it hard to believe that anyone cannot see the opportunities that this development pattern has created. The fact that Atlanta is relatively unique among big cities (by being so spread out) makes it different, not inferior. Anyone who has a region-wide business can appreciate that, as can people who change jobs without having to change residences. Atlanta never had an ocean or a navigable river, but it took advantage of its location as a crossroad for railroads, highways and aviation to become a hub of commerce.

To say that Atlanta is what it is and is doing fine does not imply that it cannot be improved. But it does imply that Atlanta works very well -- as evidenced by the fact that so many new people keep coming to seek their fortune here. And it does imply that the model is not flawed just because it differs from older cities. What many now decry as a lack of density was once seen as a park-like virtue, thanks to the luxury of unencumbered space. Atlanta is not SimCity; it was built in different times and under different circumstances, and it is growing up as a great combination of all worlds. I love it.

[fisp]

Originally Posted by SteveD

fisp, please pay closer attention. Didn't you see my use of quotation marks? Who insulted who first? Go back and read the progression of threads before you call my post "awful". Cabasse and I are having a civil discourse...I didn't feel "insulted" and I don't think he did either.

sorry about that! it's hard to see anyone saying that anyone else's view simply "doesn't make sense"... i'll try to "pay closer attention"

[SteveD]

Originally Posted by fisp

sorry about that! it's hard to see anyone saying that anyone else's view simply "doesn't make sense"... i'll try to "pay closer attention"

cool. No harm done!

[Andrea]

Originally Posted by joey

Ignoring your minor inaccuracies re: the DC highway system, I agree, but that's Andrea's (and my, I guess) point. It's desirable for expressways to bring people into the city, but they can do more damage than good when they slice through a city.

Joey, love the map. That's exactly the kind of thing I'm talking about. Obviously people might differ on the specfics, but the general concept is to avoid having the city sliced up by limited access freeways which create virtually impermeable barriers throughout the urban core. They're not only harmful in several ways, they're unncessary.

[RobMidtowner]

Originally Posted by joey

Ignoring your minor inaccuracies re: the DC highway system, I agree, but that's Andrea's (and my, I guess) point. It's desirable for expressways to bring people into the city, but they can do more damage than good when they slice through a city.

I-66 ends within yards of crossing the Potomac. I-395 ends within about 1-2 miles of crossing the Potomac (while tunnelling under or avoiding most of downtown), and DC/I-295 skirts to the east, mostly on the other side of the Anacostia River. None of these provide a direct route through downtown Washington.

Likewise, I-495 was cancelled in Manhattan, so while the Lincoln and Queens Midtown Tunnels bring people into New York, there is no freeway slicing across the island there as a through route.

Knowing what we know today, if I could have set up the Atlanta intown freeway plan originally, I would have kept the old two-lane dual carriageway I-85 routing in Atlanta (what is today the Buford Highway Connector) north of Brookwood and had it curve around northwest to make a continuous loop with I-75 (which would have remained a total of four lanes) back up toward the Perimeter. This intown I-75/I-85 loop would have been instead numbered as some interstate 3di loop like I-885. I-75 would have run along the Perimeter west of the city and I-85 on the Perimeter east of the city. I would have run I-20 instead on an alignment further south, perhaps where Lakewood/Langdord Freeway is now, eliminated the Connector north of about Turner Field, and also not built I-85 inside the perimeter south of the Connector.



The northern intown loop (I-885 in my example) might have been built to allow only HOV traffic in the peak directions at the peak times (much like I-66 is HOV-only at certain times of day).

As a result, access to some of the more low-density areas north of Midtown would remain available in a freeway form, while encouraging carpooling and transit use during peak hours (if it had HOV restrictions). Commuters working in Midtown or Downtown would transfer off of the northern intown loop to arterial roads like Northside Drive (with excess capacity) and Spring and Williams Streets. Those looking to go south of the city could take the Perimeter around.

I really don't see how this would have been all that miserable of a solution had it been built that way originally. Now, as much as I personally would like to see the Connector eliminated (in a "Can I have a pony?" sort of way), I don't see it as feasible or practical now that it's there. If anything, I'd like to see it reduced from 14 lanes, perhaps, to 6-8, with both directions running on the existing western carriageway. The eastern carriageway could then be reclaimed for parks or buildable land. Perhaps even a serious boulevard could be constructed.

I agree that if we had first class surface streets and somewhat more of a grid that maybe an interstate wouldn't be needed through the city. But the current surface streets are far from first class and for the most part there is not an efficient grid system in the city. What I mean by efficient grid system is, for example, four parallel 3-lane roads rather than one 6-lane road with three parallel 2-lane roads. The roads are currently designed to route everyone onto one of the main thoroughfares through the city and creates huge bottlenecks. So eliminating the connector right now would severely overwhelm the surrounding streets and is really not feasible. I'm not disagreeing with your idea Joey, I'm just speaking from a "how do we get there from here" point of view. I'm always so surprised when I see these new proposed high-rise developments and how the alignments of the roads around them meander around like a rural farm road (i.e. Peachtree Road near new developments in Buckhead).