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View Poll Results: Should there be a HSR rail link from Calgary to Edmonton?
Yes, even if it takes government money. 229 59.17%
Only if it's fully privately funded. 72 18.60%
No, it'll never survive either way. 86 22.22%
Voters: 387. You may not vote on this poll

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  #41  
Old Posted Jan 29, 2007, 7:52 PM
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I think if it's not viable now, it could be within a few years, especially if the province decided to encourage proper urban planning in the province. I mean the existing corridor has all the basic patterns to make inter-city transit work, in theory anyway.

Longer down the road, I think extensions of the potential HSR Network should be considered between Edmonton and Slave Lake (a potential Northern Alberta hub for several reasons), as well as Calgary to Lethbridge.
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  #42  
Old Posted Jan 30, 2007, 2:39 AM
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I rode the . . . . I can't remember what they call it (Maglev sp?) from the Shaghai airport to downtown Shanghai, or in close proximity to where several office towers - are just a quick taxi ride away. Even with Shaghai's large population base I was told that it wasn't feasible and built for show. (I don't know if that is the case or not), but it was impressive - you travel at a speed at one point of 433 km per hour.

I would love to see a system like that between Calgary and Edmonton but I don't believe a 1.5 percent birth rate in Canada will ever allow for such systems to be built here. Our nation and cities are too small with large distances in between. HS rail lines pricing would need to be slashed dramatically. I may be wrong on this point but, the two major Alberta cities can't even afford good municpal transportation systems. It is one thing to build it - its another matter to keep the system going.

I agree with an earlier post that mentioned re opening Edmonton's muni. Perhaps, that is too good an idea to ever be implemented up there. At least that would get more people flying north again.
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  #43  
Old Posted Jan 30, 2007, 4:29 AM
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yes, but not high speed
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  #44  
Old Posted Jan 30, 2007, 4:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sammy View Post
I rode the . . . . I can't remember what they call it (Maglev sp?) from the Shaghai airport to downtown Shanghai, or in close proximity to where several office towers - are just a quick taxi ride away. Even with Shaghai's large population base I was told that it wasn't feasible and built for show. (I don't know if that is the case or not), but it was impressive - you travel at a speed at one point of 433 km per hour.

I would love to see a system like that between Calgary and Edmonton but I don't believe a 1.5 percent birth rate in Canada will ever allow for such systems to be built here. Our nation and cities are too small with large distances in between. HS rail lines pricing would need to be slashed dramatically. I may be wrong on this point but, the two major Alberta cities can't even afford good municpal transportation systems. It is one thing to build it - its another matter to keep the system going.

I agree with an earlier post that mentioned re opening Edmonton's muni. Perhaps, that is too good an idea to ever be implemented up there. At least that would get more people flying north again.

Edmontons downtown airport will never open again to commercial traffic & more people then ever are flying north, Grand Prarie and Ft Mac airports are both bursting at the seams with growth.

The maglev in Shanghai is pretty cool. The one from Pudong airport to the middle of nowhere in Pudong (it doesnt actually go anywhere near the center of Shanghai) was built as a demonstration / test line. Plans are currently underway for a maglev from Shanghai to Hangzhou as well as one up north in Dalian. There was talk of a Shanghai to Beijing maglev as well, but I am unsure of the status.

What the cost of a maglev these days would be I have no clue, but I dont imagine it would be that afforable. Maybe by the time Alberta ever gets hsr, it would be possible.

And for the record, like everyone other one of these threads, I think it would be really cool to see a HSR connection between dt Edmonton and Calgary, however I really do not think it is feasible / necessary to spend govt dollars on a project like this and would much rather see the money spent on further LRT expansion and upgrading highway 2.
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  #45  
Old Posted Jan 30, 2007, 5:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sammy View Post
I agree with an earlier post that mentioned re opening Edmonton's muni. Perhaps, that is too good an idea to ever be implemented up there. At least that would get more people flying north again.

NO!

¡NO PASARAN!
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  #46  
Old Posted Jan 30, 2007, 6:24 AM
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You anti-airport types really need to put down the Jane Jacobs and pickup the John Kasarda. The revitalization of urban airports is the next big thing.
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  #47  
Old Posted Jan 30, 2007, 6:27 AM
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According to transrapid the cost of maglev and tgv are similar (my bet maglev is higher) however the real cost savings according to transrapid (and it makes sense) are in operating the system. As there are limited moving parts (no wheels, axels, etc) as well as load points being reduced maintaince would not be nearly as high.
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  #48  
Old Posted Jan 30, 2007, 6:56 AM
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Originally Posted by Policy Wonk View Post
The revitalization of urban airports is the next big thing.
No. It isn't. Anything much bigger than a DeHavilland DHC-3 or a Sikorsky 61 has no business in an urban core.
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  #49  
Old Posted Jan 30, 2007, 7:25 AM
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A Q400 is a whole lot more quite than a Beaver,
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  #50  
Old Posted Jan 30, 2007, 8:10 AM
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Noise? I was thinking real estate. Lake, river or Helicopter pad.
No land usage.

Oh, and I was also thinking Otter, not Beaver. The Beaver was the DHC-2
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  #51  
Old Posted Jan 30, 2007, 3:32 PM
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Didn't you guys ever play sim city? You should know how easy and how in-expensive this would be.
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  #52  
Old Posted Jan 30, 2007, 6:34 PM
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Originally Posted by m0nkyman View Post
Noise? I was thinking real estate. Lake, river or Helicopter pad. No land usage
Many old airports have significant re-development challenges, especially one like the Muni. They are best put to their original use.
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  #53  
Old Posted Apr 6, 2007, 4:56 PM
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Old Thread: New Article.

Quite accidentally, I took the Calgary Transit thread off topic when I posted this image, which then turned to an HSR discussion, then this morning this article just happened to come out in the Herald's editorial section...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Boris550
On an unrelated and slightly OT note:

I just found this image in the Glenbow Archives. Here is the description:

Two separate images published in the Calgary Herald, December 6, 1974.
a) This fast train, thought to be futuristic, was tested on a Calgary-Edmonton run.
b) The L.R.C. or Light Rapid Comfortable train, at Alyth, Alberta, before going on to Edmonton, Alberta.
High-speed rail looking better
Todd Babiak, The Edmonton Journal
Published: Friday, April 06, 2007


With the prospect of spring comes dreams of bounteous harvests, sex and high-speed trains. Imagine sitting back with a glass of wine and a novel, for a one-hour trip between Edmonton and Calgary on a Friday afternoon, the boring countryside zipping past. Sitting across from you, a kindly stranger, also with wine and a novel.

"Greetings."

"Why, hello. Are we not wonderfully lucky to be Albertan on a Friday afternoon in 2011? And to think, we used to drive sport utility vehicles between the two cities, on a congested highway, and waste hours in airports."

"What a silly, dangerous waste of money and fossil fuels! Remember gasoline alley? Ha ha ha."

The dreaminess is even more intense than usual, because of the French V150 train that broke a speed record on Tuesday. At 574 km/h, the speed reached by the V-150, Calgarians could be in Edmonton in less than 45 minutes -- the lucky devils.

Last year at this time, Infrastructure and Transportation minister Lyle Oberg had the fever. If he had become premier, Oberg would have purchased land for a high-speed train. Private industry, he suggested, would build and operate the infrastructure in co-operation with the province -- a much more comprehensible P3 arrangement than, say, the construction of public schools.

As Oberg knows, a comprehensive study already exists. In 2004, the Van Horne Institute concluded that a high-speed rail link between Edmonton and Calgary was both feasible and beneficial -- financially, socially and environmentally.

"Not only would it increase transportation choice, promote price competitivity and add inter-city capacity," the study's authors said, "it has the potential to reshape growth and development, strengthen the flow of trade and labour between cities in the corridor and transform international perceptions of the region."

The Van Horne Institute suggested upgrading the existing CPR line for freight and high-speed passenger service on Bombardier JetTrains. Purchasing land for magnetic train links of the German or French sort is a sexier, yet more expensive option, and Premier Ed Stelmach is well-briefed on it; he had a meeting with Siemens AG, the German train builder, in 2004.

Of course, there are skeptics. Some say Albertans won't go for trains unless gas prices are taxed to European levels. Others say, given the labour shortage, it's too expensive to build anything but Wal-Marts. Still others think Edmonton and Calgary should upgrade their LRT systems before the cities link up by rail. Northerners worry a rail link would consolidate international flight connections at the dreaded Calgary airport.

Higher taxes for petroleum products would discourage leisure-based driving in Canadian cities and boost public transportation. Unless the province relieves pressure on the crowded QEII, it will soon require billions in upgrades. Why not divert some of that money to a rail project, and leave the highway for commercial travel?

Edmonton and Calgary must expand and improve their LRT systems, train or no train, and a high-speed link would only further integrate the regions and the corridor. Worrying about the all-consuming power of the Calgary airport is pointless and old-fashioned. Airlines are driven by profit.

Since parking fees have exploded in downtown Calgary, and since commutes from the ever more distant suburbs and exurbs have turned ugly, it has transformed into a public transit city without sacrificing an inch of its conservatism.

According to the provincial government, we'll know more in July. A market research firm is finishing up a study Oberg commissioned last year. "It's just to get a gauge on how many people would use the rail service and what they'd be willing to pay," says Jerry Bellikka, with Infrastructure and Transportation. "What does our marketplace want? Then we have to figure out if what the market wants can be delivered at a reasonable cost."

Costs and benefits can be defined in a number of ways. With luck, the province will consider the increased productivity, as well as the social and environmental benefits, that would come with reduced car and airline traffic in the corridor.

"The numbers coming out of their market research, we would expect, hope, will reinforce the Van Horne study," says Peter Wallis, president and CEO of the Van Horne Institute. "Or, more likely, considering the growth we're experiencing, we underestimated the demand for this project."

The high-speed rail debate, 2007 edition, will amount to a classic struggle between governing with vision and governing with the fear of upsetting a largely imaginary cult of Albertans living in a perpetual 1968. If it's easier to contemplate, replace the wine and novel with beer and a copy of Truckin' magazine.

tbabiak@thejournal.canwest.com
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  #54  
Old Posted Apr 6, 2007, 6:06 PM
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I have the feeling that the high-speed rail debate will never go away, unless one of two things happen:

Either Edmonton or Calgary disappears from the face of the planet,

or...

The high-speed rail actually gets built, whether it's 2025 or 2125.
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  #55  
Old Posted Apr 6, 2007, 6:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevin_foster View Post
Didn't you guys ever play sim city? You should know how easy and how in-expensive this would be.
SimCity is not that accurate of a sim, the money and dedication doesn't only come from the government, the private and corporate world must also think that suck a connection will be better for their business. Also, the everyday Calgarian isn't going to go to Edmonton on a train which will be more expensive that taking a normal gasoline car.

That being said I think that the rail could be built, but not as a high-speed rail connection, a normal rail going a bit faster than the normal car on QEII would be feasible, but only if it doesn't hinder the progress on the LRT connections being built in the cities.
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  #56  
Old Posted Apr 6, 2007, 6:09 PM
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If a well-thought out business plan can be made, then I think it's a pretty cool idea. Having taken the Shinkansen a number of trips, I can say that the convience, security and ease of high speed rail is definitely worth it from a traveler standpoint. Instead of getting at the airport 60-90 minutes ahead of time, going through security, etc. you show up 15 minutes ahead of time, walk on, take your seat and relax... nothing beats it IMHO. However, I see a few obstacles.
  1. A trip from downtown to downtown must be significantly faster than driving and at least as fast as flying. Given a proper ROW between ends this could happen. Any talk of anything less than 180km/hr should be forgotten, since you might as well just take Red Arrow.
  2. Most high-speed lines do not have crossings, period. The shinkansen is raised and/or cordoned off the entire distance as a train going 220km/hr+ takes a significant distance to stop in case of emergency, etc. Just taking the existing ROW and upgrading the rails may not be enough.
  3. About that rail upgrading... most high speed rail requires the tracks to be welded together with only very occasional gaps or else it's bumpy as hell. Japan has extreme weather in the northern half, so we know that there's ways to survive cold weather, but I'd be concerned about the cost of maintenance.
  4. I keep bringing up the cost of maintenance of the rails, but this is an extremely big deal... that if we went with an electric solution then that 290km would require electric maintenance... I wonder what the costs of maintenance for these are like in Europe and Japan?

However, there are also some excellent opportunities and advantages that haven't been considered:
  1. Putting stations between the three major cities, say at Olds and Ponoka, would enable those areas to become low-cost business areas, and make those areas prime options for building manufacturing and development centers... if it only takes the executive 20 minutes by HSR to go to their factory in Olds from downtown Calgary, then that opens doors!
  2. With all the maintenance required, this would create more jobs, and more importantly, jobs all along the stretch between Calgary and Edmonton, not just in the centers.
  3. Perception of Alberta by investors may change in a positive manner, as we will appear more high-tech and diversified due to the halo effect of such a rail line. This would help when the oil goes dry

Finally, someone said that there's no good place for HSR in North America... but I disagree. There's lots of obvious places and indeed there were a significant number of officials from North American cities at the TGV speed test. New York to Boston is being eyed, as is San Francisco to Los Angeles. The important thing that needs to be considered is that a large population isn't necessarily what's needed -- it's a large need to go between two places quickly.

As I stated above, though, that those obstacles MUST be overcome and planned for before this ever has a chance of hitting the rails.

EDIT: Washington D.C to Boston actually has 220km/hr Bombardier trains running on them. They are not electric.
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Last edited by Danma; Apr 6, 2007 at 6:30 PM.
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  #57  
Old Posted Apr 6, 2007, 6:47 PM
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I'll just repost what I posted in the Calgary Transit thread:

You can put me in the group that thinks the HSR would be useless until both cities become easily accessible via Transit (especially LRT). However, I do believe that we need to be proactive and start working on the project immediately. To start, the government needs to start setting aside funds for the project. Work on a passenger train ROW (LGV/HS style) should commence in a few years.

The LGV ROW would be owned and maintained by the government. Track time would be rented out to private passenger companies, and medium speed train service should start upon the LGV's completion. This train service will not be intended solely for intercity travel but also for commuter travel; you'd be amazed at the amount of people north of Calgary and south of Edmonton that would use this service.

At the same time the QEII highway should be upgraded to motorway/autobahn standards and turned into toll road of some sort, preferably an ETR. The toll would help pay for the project and ensure that auto-users pay the full cost of using an automobile. In combination with the construction delays it would add to the amount of people using the medium speed passenger rail system.

By the time both projects are complete transit service in both cities will be vastly improved and the population of the corridor might be at the threshold for HSR service, which would run on the already constructed LGVs.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Distill3d
lets be realistic here:

Route 1: EXPRESS >
Downtown Calgary to Downtown Edmonton in 45 Minutes
I think Route 1 should work like this, or be split into Routes 1A and 1B.

Departure
Downtown Calgary to Downtown Edmonton, calling at: Calgary International Airport.

Return
Downtown Edmonton to Downtown Calgary, calling at: Edmonton International Airport.
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  #58  
Old Posted Apr 6, 2007, 7:26 PM
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QE-2... does this annoy anyone else but me???
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  #59  
Old Posted Apr 6, 2007, 7:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jay in Cowtown View Post
QE-2... does this annoy anyone else but me???
I refuse to call it that. It's highway 2, or in some cases Calgary Trial.



When needed.....many many years from now. I think this route idea is pretty good.
Quote:
I think Route 1 should work like this, or be split into Routes 1A and 1B.

Departure
Downtown Calgary to Downtown Edmonton, calling at: Calgary International Airport.

Return
Downtown Edmonton to Downtown Calgary, calling at: Edmonton International Airport.
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  #60  
Old Posted Apr 6, 2007, 7:55 PM
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Well I can't post the exact numbers of passengers flying on AC to YEG in a day (there might be some Westjet employees out there somewhere haha). But I think the demand is there IF the train links city centre to city centre. We dispatch a flight to YEG every 30 mins during business hours and every 60 mins after business hours until 11pm. I'd say around 60% of it is coporate travel. Westjet also has several daily frequencies.

The number of people travelling between Calgary and Edmonton is a lot higher than some on this forum think. It's more than just counting cars on the QE2.

Don't forget, that access to a convenient HSR link would probably develop the market even more. For example, with HSR you could live in the Red Deer area (cheaper housing) and still work in Edmonton or Calgary. So it's not ONLY about how many people travel between Edmonton and Calgary today.

Of couse, LRT expansion has to be complete before opening day of the HSR link. But that's easily possible.

Kris
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