Paris Set to Quadruple in Size

[Minato Ku]

Originally Posted by yuriandrade

About big houses, well, it would be more expensive to pay someone to keep it in order. I don't need much space specially as I basically just sleep in my apartment.

You don't have kids, that's why living in a small apartment doesn't bother you.
With kids, I don't see many advantage of living in inner Paris, I see more disadvantages.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by yuriandrade

Or I just dropped moving there. I moved from Londrina to São Paulo for a job/career. Of course, I chose the best to live, otherwise I wouldn't bother to come.

I don't like to drive nor do I need, specially in big dense cities like São Paulo or Paris. And you can always rent one if you feel like to make a roadtrip.

About big houses, well, it would be more expensive to pay someone to keep it in order. I don't need much space specially as I basically just sleep in my apartment.

You'll change as you grow older. All people change. What's certain (and I hope you realize that despite your well known anti-French bias ) is that the quality of life in the suburbs of Paris is higher than the quality of life you could get anywhere in Brazil even in the best parts of São Paulo. There are some suburbs of Paris that are just beyond this world in terms of quality of life (and I say this as a usually very critical person living in the most central part of Paris, but with Minato Ku we have explored many suburbs over the years, and some of these places have really impressed us a lot).

For example none of these houses are located inside the City of Paris proper:







Same here, not inside the City of Paris:



Or here:



Or here, in this absolutely delightful suburb (I had this suburb exactly in mind when I read what the journalist wrote about his difficult search for housing in the most central part of Paris):













Or here again outside the 1860 administrative borders of the City of Paris:



And finally here, one of our favorite suburbs with Minato Ku, splendid views and a cute hill-top town center with bourgeois houses and cozy restaurants:

[montréaliste]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

You'll change as you grow older. All people change. What's certain (and I hope you realize that despite your well known anti-French bias ) is that the quality of life in the suburbs of Paris is higher than the quality of life you could get anywhere in Brazil even in the best parts of São Paulo. There are some suburbs of Paris that are just beyond this world in terms of quality of life (and I say this as a usually very critical person living in the most central part of Paris, but with Minato Ku we have explored many suburbs over the years, and some of these places have really impressed us a lot).

For example none of these houses are located inside the City of Paris proper:







Same here, not inside the City of Paris:



Or here:



Or here, in this absolutely delightful suburb (I had this suburb exactly in mind when I read what the journalist wrote about his difficult search for housing in the most central part of Paris):













Or here again outside the 1860 administrative borders of the City of Paris:



And finally here, one of our favorite suburbs with Minato Ku, splendid views and a cute hill-top town center with bourgeois houses and cozy restaurants:

Greater Paris is indeed hard to beat. France is one of the least shabby places one can think of.

[10023]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

If you don't have 1 million euros to buy an apartment in the City of Paris, you'll quickly drop your stance and bow to the inevitable: a 500,000 euros apartment in the 1st ring of suburbs, or a 300,000 euros one in the 2nd ring of suburbs.

My cousin the engineer always makes fun of his colleagues who pay astronomical sums of money to live in cramped apartments in the city center, when he lives in a large and comfortable house in the suburbs. He says the only thing that matters to them is having the name "Paris" at the end of their postal address, which is ridiculous. Living in the suburbs, he can access all the amenities of central Paris by car (like opera, concerts, etc), without having to ruin himself and live in a small cramped apartment.

Yes, this is the philosophy of most American suburbanites. I wouldn't think it would have currency here. And no, he can't access all the amenities of the city by car. Not can anyone in Weehawken, NJ or some far flung part of London.

Can he wake up in the morning and walk around the corner to one of the city's best bakeries? Can he browse the shops while he runs mundane errands? Does he see and experience the sights and sounds while he goes through his daily routine?

No. He lives in the suburbs, not in Paris, and has a suburban experience. It's not different in Paris than anywhere else, and the desire to live in the city is not about prestige, it's about wanting to actually live in the city, no matter what your big brother says.

Your brother's priorities are clearly dictated by his children, but neither he nor you should pretend that he isn't making a significant trade off. Personally, I would never have children if it meant not being able to live where I wanted to live. But then I don't like kids.

And most importantly... HOW ARE YOU NOT SEEING THAT THIS IS EXACTLY WHAT THE WSJ WAS TALKING ABOUT?

Living in the suburbs is NOT like living in the city, but people have to move to the suburbs because they can't AFFORD to live in the city with kids.

[mrnyc]

^ oh so then suburban issues do have currency around paris too after all. i see you learned something today.

[10023]

Originally Posted by mrnyc

^ oh so then suburban issues do have currency around paris too after all. i see you learned something today.

What the hell is this supposed to mean?

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by 10023

Can he wake up in the morning and walk around the corner to one of the city's best bakeries?

Saint-Germain-en-Laye has some great bakeries and a very nice 18th and 19th century city center with lots of stores and shops.

In any case, my cousin works in central Paris, so he can just stop at a bakery in central Paris on the way to his office in the morning.

Originally Posted by 10023

Can he browse the shops while he runs mundane errands? Does he see and experience the sights and sounds while he goes through his daily routine?

Yes, as per my last sentence above.

His life is roughly : busy central Paris by day and evening 5 days a week, beautiful leafy Saint-Germain-en-Laye with its active city center, wonderful Saturday food market and huge forest by day during the week-end, and nightlife in central Paris on most Saturday nights (there are rarely traffic jams on the road at that time).

Originally Posted by 10023

Living in the suburbs is NOT like living in the city, but people have to move to the suburbs because they can't AFFORD to live in the city with kids.

Given his money, I think he could afford to live in the City of Paris. He prefers to live where he lives because the quality of life is so much higher. Can't blame him. If I had a car, I would do too. Perhaps as a Londoner you don't realize how convenient it is to drive to central Paris will all the motorways we have (living in Outer London is of course much less practical to reach central London given the lack of motorways).

[10023]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

Saint-Germain-en-Laye has some great bakeries and a very nice 18th and 19th century city center with lots of stores and shops.

In any case, my cousin works in central Paris, so he can just stop at a bakery in central Paris on the way to his office in the morning.

Yes, as per my last sentence above.

His life is roughly : busy central Paris by day and evening 5 days a week, beautiful leafy Saint-Germain-en-Laye with its active city center, wonderful Saturday food market and huge forest by day during the week-end, and nightlife in central Paris on most Saturday nights (there are rarely traffic jams on the road at that time).

Given his money, I think he could afford to live in the City of Paris. He prefers to live where he lives because the quality of life is so much higher. Can't blame him. If I had a car, I would do too. Perhaps as a Londoner you don't realize how convenient it is to drive to central Paris will all the motorways we have (living in Outer London is of course much less practical to reach central London given the lack of motorways).

I've driven in Paris. It's actually quite convenient to drive in London, as long as one isn't actually in the West End. But Kensington & Chelsea are central and driving is convenient (and street parking is also extremely cheap for residents).

Nonetheless, what you describe is the "suburban dream". He's a commuter, living in the commuter belt. It's no different from people who live in Westchester county and take a Metro North train every day to Grand Central in Manhattan, or on Chicago's North Shore and take the Metra to the Loop every day. Not every suburb in the United States is full of subdivisions and strip malls either, the older ones are also like villages that have been absorbed into the metro. There may even be some good bakeries and restaurants nearby (there are in places like Rye and Evanston too)... but it's still not Paris.

[Crawford]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

Ignorance again. Many rich First World expats live in the suburbs and not in the city proper. For example my cousin who is a wealthy engineer lives in the suburb of Saint-Germain-en-Laye, and his neighbor there is a Norwegian expat. In fact there's an international high school in Saint-Germain-en-Laye for children of expats. The so-called British School of Paris is also located in the western suburb of Croissy-sur-Seine and not in the City of Paris proper.

I think it depends on age and lifestyle. There are lots of older, married expats with kids who live in the suburbs of world cities. I'm sure there are plenty of 40-something expat couples with kids in Saint Germain en Laye and in Versailles and in other Paris suburbs, just like there are similar types in Scarsdale and Greenwich and Montclair and in other NYC suburbs.

But younger, or single expats, and the most wealthy expats, are probably concentrated in places like the 6th, 7th and 8th arrondissements, just like in NYC they'll be in Manhattan or maybe Brownstone Brooklyn.

Just anecdotal, but I recently spent two weeks in Paris, in an apartment across the street from Musee du Quay Branley (basically between Eiffel Tower and Invalides, near all the shops on Rue Saint Dominique), and that neighborhood appears to have a HUGE expat population, especially rich, older Americans. There were local Michelin-starred restaurants that required reservations long in advance, and we always had a big older American presence of fellow diners (though I'm sure some are just tourists). There were always Americans buying groceries or jogging or hanging out in the parks.

Love that neighborhood, BTW. I know it isn't trendy or cool, but those old apartment buildings are pure class. And Paris real estate is pretty affordable coming from NYC, and with the stronger dollar.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by 10023

Nonetheless, what you describe is the "suburban dream". He's a commuter, living in the commuter belt. It's no different from people who live in Westchester county and take a Metro North train every day to Grand Central in Manhattan, or on Chicago's North Shore and take the Metra to the Loop every day.

Saint-Germain-en-Laye is only 15.2 km (9.4 miles) from the Champs-Elysées as the crow flies. That's the same distance as between Midtown Manhattan and Morris Park in the Bronx.

People often forget how small the actual administrative territory of the City of Paris is. Many "suburbs" here would be called the city proper in other big cities around the world. It's crazy how people still give so much weight to an administrative border dating from 1860. And to look for housing only inside that small administrative territory, especially when you have a family, is beyond reasonable. It's like people who can't imagine living anywhere else but Manhattan.

[mrnyc]

Originally Posted by 10023

What the hell is this supposed to mean?

its another one of your theatrical opinions, what else. proven incorrect as usual.

[10023]

Originally Posted by mrnyc

its another one of your theatrical opinions, what else. proven incorrect as usual.

I don't know which supposed opinion of mine you think you've proven incorrect.

[10023]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

Saint-Germain-en-Laye is only 15.2 km (9.4 miles) from the Champs-Elysées as the crow flies. That's the same distance as between Midtown Manhattan and Morris Park in the Bronx.

People often forget how small the actual administrative territory of the City of Paris is. Many "suburbs" here would be called the city proper in other big cities around the world. It's crazy how people still give so much weight to an administrative border dating from 1860. And to look for housing only inside that small administrative territory, especially when you have a family, is beyond reasonable. It's like people who can't imagine living anywhere else but Manhattan.

And Morris Park in the Bronx is not a central neighborhood where an expat would be interested in living. Nor are parts of Queens that are less than 9 miles from Midtown.

But I'm not talking about distance, I'm talking about lifestyle. What matters to me (and many people) is not what you can get to in 30 minutes by car, but what is right outside your front door.

[Yuri]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

(...) is that the quality of life in the suburbs of Paris is higher than the quality of life you could get anywhere in Brazil even in the best parts of São Paulo.

That's highly disputable. You are based on what? Life expectancy, income, quality of services or what? I don't think a person living at Jardim Europa (nor the stats would agree with) they are doing worse than "Parisian suburbs".

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by yuriandrade

That's highly disputable. You are based on what? Life expectancy, income, quality of services or what? I don't think a person living at Jardim Europa (nor the stats would agree with) they are doing worse than "Parisian suburbs".

Someone living in the suburbs of Paris has a level of security way higher than what people in Jardim Europa could ever dream of. No need to have bars at your windows here, and the murder rate is super small compared to São Paulo. Also no risk of kidnapping in the suburbs of Paris. Honestly, you'd much rather be rich here than in São Paulo.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by 10023

And Morris Park in the Bronx is not a central neighborhood where an expat would be interested in living. Nor are parts of Queens that are less than 9 miles from Midtown.

Well these houses in the picture are only 5.8 km (3.6 miles) from the Champs-Elysées. That's the same distance as between 125th Street and Midtown Manhattan. Tell me what's the rationale of not even looking for housing in this neighborhood just because back in 1860 it wasn't included in the administrative borders of the City of Paris? It would be the same as if the administrative border of New York City was on 59th street, and the foreign journalist moving to NYC would refuse to even consider looking for housing north of 59th on the ground that it's "the suburbs", and then complain about how hard it is to find an apartment in NYC (i.e. the area south of 59th), and how limited the housing stock is in NYC, a "museum frozen in time" (quote and quote).

[Yuri]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

Someone living in the suburbs of Paris has a level of security way higher than what people in Jardim Europa could ever dream of. No need to have bars at your windows here, and the murder rate is super small compared to São Paulo. Also no risk of kidnapping in the suburbs of Paris. Honestly, you'd much rather be rich here than in São Paulo.

You are aware there's virtually no crime in Jardim Europa or other upmarket districts in São Paulo, right? If you take stats, they are probably safer than 90% of Parisians and you talk about level of security they couldn't even dream of? São Paulo is not even a particularly violent city, with murder rate below 10/100,000, way safer than 90's New York. And kidnapping?!?! I believe you are watching too many movies...

Obviously Paris is wealthier than São Paulo in per capita terms, but suggesting the best parts of São Paulo are worse than all the Parisian suburbs put together, home of 10 million people of all sort, is just plain ridiculous.

No Brisavoine, I wouldn't change São Paulo for Paris. At all. I love this city and I'm doing very well here. And the hundreds of thousands paulistanos that could do it if they want, are not doing it for some reason...

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by yuriandrade

And the hundreds of thousands paulistanos that could do it if they want, are not doing it for some reason...

Visas.

Although despite the cumbersome visa requirements, the number of Brazilian immigrants in Paris has been rising in recent years. At the 2012 census the number of Brazilian immigrants in Greater Paris reached 12,900 (60% of whom lived in the suburbs).

[Yuri]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

Visas.

Although despite the cumbersome visa requirements, the number of Brazilian immigrants in Paris has been rising in recent years. At the 2012 census the number of Brazilian immigrants in Greater Paris reached 12,900 (60% of whom lived in the suburbs).

Wow! 12,900 out of 205 million!!! At this pace no one will be left down here...

BTW, there is no visa to get into France. Just buy your tickets (up to 12 installments at credit card with no interests) and go.

[New Brisavoine]

There is a visa to stay in France more than 3 months.