Gentrification: We are currently building our way to hell

[LouisVanDerWright]

Originally Posted by jtown,man

Yes. 100% Its not based on race, but our CULTURE is borrowed from Europe.

Lol no, besides language American culture is defined by a desire to depart from European culture. Literally the reason most Europeans immigrated here from pilgrims to Jews fleeing Hitler. The New World was the fmdumping grounds for everyone who didn't fit in with "European Culture".

[jtown,man]

Originally Posted by LouisVanDerWright

Lol no, besides language American culture is defined by a desire to depart from European culture. Literally the reason most Europeans immigrated here from pilgrims to Jews fleeing Hitler. The New World was the fmdumping grounds for everyone who didn't fit in with "European Culture".

No

You think the pilgrims came over and just lost their work ethic?

Scott Irish came over and just lost their rowdy ways from home?

People didn't come over with their visions of land use and settlement patterns set in from where they came?

Why were northerners and southerners so different and even so today?

You have a great point, granted, and it'd one of the things I love about this place. However, america didn't create a culture out of thin air. Our founders were influenced by many European thinkers. Our peoples habits came from somewhere. Black Americans learned how to live here by southerners who in turn learned their ways from the places they came from.

[mousquet]

Originally Posted by JManc

Hate to sound crass...but...men with French and (some) British accents can make panties drop.

Well, sometimes your own accent pisses one off and gets one's prick in that provocative mood.

Since the US culture has indeed been dominant for many decades by now, you're supposed to learn about the world and be better than what was before, thus to not forever repeat the same mistakes over and over.

It's yet pretty obvious. With power comes great responsibility, as they say. That's it.

[CaliNative]

The ideal city mixes low income, medium income, and high income housing in proximity. The low income housing need not be bad, or look bad, if the rents are subsidized. Now certain neighborhoods are more desirable, others less desirable. Proximity to the ocean, views, museums, parks etc. make areas desirable. Proximity to industrial areas, polluted areas, high crime areas, etc. make a neighborhood less desirable. If a public agency tries to improve a "less desirable" neighborhood, it should by law make sure that substantial low income housing is preserved, and that historic buildings that give the neighborhood its history and character are preserved where possible.

Correction: title should read "all should live there", not "their".

[north 42]

Originally Posted by Docere

Yes, this.

There's hardly any gentrification on the South Side of Chicago, Detroit, Newark etc.

It generally happens in more stable working class areas with older housing and locations appealing to gentrifiers.

This is not true, DT Detroit, Mid town and Corktown have been gentrifying heavily over the past half decade, it's like night and day compared to what existed only ten years ago.

[10023]

Originally Posted by LouisVanDerWright

Lol no, besides language American culture is defined by a desire to depart from European culture. Literally the reason most Europeans immigrated here from pilgrims to Jews fleeing Hitler. The New World was the fmdumping grounds for everyone who didn't fit in with "European Culture".

No offense but your historical knowledge is really astoundingly bad.

[mhays]

Religious freedom, economic opportunity, and potato famines might have played a small part as well.

[brian_b]

Originally Posted by Docere

Yes, this.

There's hardly any gentrification on the South Side of Chicago, Detroit, Newark etc.

It generally happens in more stable working class areas with older housing and locations appealing to gentrifiers.

https://www.google.com/maps/@41.8107...7i13312!8i6656

Take a little streetview tour of this neighborhood and let me know if that's South Side Chicago enough for you. I know quite a few white folks that have bought and are living in these houses.

[LouisVanDerWright]

Originally Posted by mhays

Religious freedom, economic opportunity, and potato famines might have played a small part as well.

And what do these reasons all have in common? They are uniquely American cultural traits. The United States has its own culture and has since the revolution which has radically different ideals than traditional European culture which was largely dominated by centralized churches and divine right of kings. Meanwhile those who immigrated to America gradually developed a culture centered around individual rights, property rights, agriculture, self sufficiency, etc. So I'm not sure what 10023 is talking about, but the very thing that made America what it is were radical cultural shifts breaking from hundreds or even thousands of years of European habits. In fact, the American cultural experience probably enshrines the very notion of immigration in search of opportunity itself. Anyone who thinks the main driving force of American immigration isn't our unique cultural traits (multi culturalism, individual rights, freedom of movement, property rights, etc,) is crazy IMO.

[memph]

Originally Posted by LouisVanDerWright

And what do these reasons all have in common? They are uniquely American cultural traits. The United States has its own culture and has since the revolution which has radically different ideals than traditional European culture which was largely dominated by centralized churches and divine right of kings. Meanwhile those who immigrated to America gradually developed a culture centered around individual rights, property rights, agriculture, self sufficiency, etc. So I'm not sure what 10023 is talking about, but the very thing that made America what it is were radical cultural shifts breaking from hundreds or even thousands of years of European habits. In fact, the American cultural experience probably enshrines the very notion of immigration in search of opportunity itself. Anyone who thinks the main driving force of American immigration isn't our unique cultural traits (multi culturalism, individual rights, freedom of movement, property rights, etc,) is crazy IMO.

How much of that is just because the United States were founded during a time period when the western world was shifting away from centralized churches and divine kings and towards individual rights, freedom, etc?

[LouisVanDerWright]

Originally Posted by memph

How much of that is just because the United States were founded during a time period when the western world was shifting away from centralized churches and divine kings and towards individual rights, freedom, etc?

There is no doubt the revolution and the enlightenment go hand in hand, but there is also no doubt that the United States was the only place where such an experiment of government could take place successfully for quite some time. The notion of liberties was popular in the United States because it was so far removed from centralized powers. In Europe the average peasant owned no land and had no rights and had no access to firearms. In Europe the average farmer owned a parcel of land, had an expectation to be left to basically do as they pleased, and had a cache of muskets. When the British came to put down the rebellion, they quickly learned that they were fighting an entirely different animal than they had experienced in prior uprising in Europe or other colonies.

[dc_denizen]

Originally Posted by memph

How much of that is just because the United States were founded during a time period when the western world was shifting away from centralized churches and divine kings and towards individual rights, freedom, etc?

I always think of Oliver Cromwell as the template for American leaders.

in the US, also the various nonconformist churches (puritans, baptists, methodists, etc plus catholics) were given freedom to practice their religion of choice, unlike in Anglican Britain where nonconformists and catholics were persecuted. this was a big part of the religious freedom aspect of the constitution.

[dc_denizen]

Originally Posted by brian_b

https://www.google.com/maps/@41.8107...7i13312!8i6656

Take a little streetview tour of this neighborhood and let me know if that's South Side Chicago enough for you. I know quite a few white folks that have bought and are living in these houses.

complete market failure that I see vacant lots and underutilized areas less than a mile from the largest freshwater lakes on earth. w beaches, etc. incredible.

look at this:

https://www.google.com/maps/@41.8113...7i13312!8i6656

what is this detroit? what happened to the other houses on this block?

[Via Chicago]

Decades of stagnation, white flight, loss of stable manufacturing and blue collar jobs, growing violence, and a massive housing crisis that forced many low income people from their homes equals vacant properties which get torn down. It took multiple generations to create this problem, it will take multiple to fix it.

[10023]

Originally Posted by LouisVanDerWright

Lol no, besides language American culture is defined by a desire to depart from European culture. Literally the reason most Europeans immigrated here from pilgrims to Jews fleeing Hitler. The New World was the fmdumping grounds for everyone who didn't fit in with "European Culture".

Originally Posted by LouisVanDerWright

And what do these reasons all have in common? They are uniquely American cultural traits. The United States has its own culture and has since the revolution which has radically different ideals than traditional European culture which was largely dominated by centralized churches and divine right of kings. Meanwhile those who immigrated to America gradually developed a culture centered around individual rights, property rights, agriculture, self sufficiency, etc. So I'm not sure what 10023 is talking about, but the very thing that made America what it is were radical cultural shifts breaking from hundreds or even thousands of years of European habits. In fact, the American cultural experience probably enshrines the very notion of immigration in search of opportunity itself. Anyone who thinks the main driving force of American immigration isn't our unique cultural traits (multi culturalism, individual rights, freedom of movement, property rights, etc,) is crazy IMO.

None of these concepts that you mention are at all unique to America or American culture. The English had enshrined principles of individual rights (including property rights) since the signing of the Magna Carta in the early 13th century, and by the time the first American colonies were established had a parliament which shared power with the monarch. Shortly thereafter, they even had a Bill of Rights: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_of_Rights_1689

Beyond this, American political culture is almost entirely rooted in the intellectual tradition of the Enlightenment, and particularly the French Enlightenment. Where the new United States differed was in its lack of an entrenched power structure that was resisting change, but none of these ideas really originated in the American colonies.

The "Pilgrims", despite being oddly venerated in American lore, are actually a complete outlier. They were a group of intolerant religious fundamentalists who were more or less kicked out of England, but didn't want to mix with the Dutch in the Netherlands. They founded only one of the many English colonies in America (and not even the first), and had a minor influence on American culture by the time of independence from England. The term "Pilgrims" wasn't even in use at the time, this was part of later myth-making by a new nation.

No one else at the time "fled Europe" for "religious freedom". Other colonial immigrants were English aristocrats who wanted large estates where land was available and cheap, along with their English indentured servants (in exchange for passage), and of course a large number of African slaves. The Irish came because of the Potato Famine. The Italians (at least the surge in the late 19th century) came because of poverty in the south of Italy following unification. The big waves of German immigration in the 19th century were due to political upheaval (particularly after 1848), but this had literally nothing to do with "culture", "habits" or "not fitting in".

None of these people sought to leave European culture behind, nor did they... they brought additional elements of European culture with them. An example: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latin_Settlement

Non-white (non-European) immigration to the United States wasn't even permitted under the law for nearly a century, and quotas existed to prevent most non-European immigration until the 1960s. By the time non-Europeans represented the majority of US immigration, Europe itself was getting a large number of immigrants from Africa and Asia.

Short version: the US is a European society, it just got to where Europe was going first.

Originally Posted by memph

How much of that is just because the United States were founded during a time period when the western world was shifting away from centralized churches and divine kings and towards individual rights, freedom, etc?

All of it.

[jtown,man]

Originally Posted by Austinlee

The fact that he is 70 years old probably means he is mentally & financially invested in the status quo.
I do agree that much new construction apartments and hotels all across this country are of a noticeably lower quality than historic buildings. But during America's guilded age there was a near limitless supply of super cheap skilled labor. The workers deserve to be paid a living wage nowadays but that does omit the ornate detailing of the old buildings that we all love so much.

There are too many regulations. Look at Austin. You have to go through so many loops to get something built.

[LouisVanDerWright]

Originally Posted by 10023

None of these concepts that you mention are at all unique to America or American culture. The English had enshrined principles of individual rights (including property rights) since the signing of the Magna Carta in the early 13th century, and by the time the first American colonies were established had a parliament which shared power with the monarch. Shortly thereafter, they even had a Bill of Rights: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_of_Rights_1689

I never said they were "unique" to America, I said that America was the only place that they could take hold in earnest. Also, your understanding of history is weak if you think the Magna Carta was actually the kind of earth shaking document the constitution was immediately upon signing. In fact, the Magna Carta immediately failed (it was part of a peace treaty between the king and rebel nobles) and resulted in a war. It wasn't until around 1600 that the document truly began to be assigned major ideological significance beyond "this is an agreement between the king and barons". Scholars looking at some of the very same ideals that eventually became the enlightenment wanted to support their case that there had been an ancient set of fundamental rights guaranteed to all Englishmen began portraying the document as more of an ideological revolution.

Beyond this, American political culture is almost entirely rooted in the intellectual tradition of the Enlightenment, and particularly the French Enlightenment. Where the new United States differed was in its lack of an entrenched power structure that was resisting change, but none of these ideas really originated in the American colonies.

The bolded is hilarious. The defining feature of the Enlightenment was the questioning of orthodoxies. Referring to the Enlightenment as having an "intellectual tradition" is just silly. I don't disagree that much of the Enlightenment was centered in Europe, but it wasn't only there. Americans were discussing the same ideas at the time and were very much an integral part of what was really one of the first truly global intellectual movements. To somehow try to disentangle people like Ben Franklin (who was essentially globally famous and a "rockstar" of his day) from the Enlightenment is just silly.

The "Pilgrims", despite being oddly venerated in American lore, are actually a complete outlier. They were a group of intolerant religious fundamentalists who were more or less kicked out of England, but didn't want to mix with the Dutch in the Netherlands. They founded only one of the many English colonies in America (and not even the first), and had a minor influence on American culture by the time of independence from England. The term "Pilgrims" wasn't even in use at the time, this was part of later myth-making by a new nation.

First of all, your use of the word "Pilgrims" is revealing of your limited knowledge of this topic. At the time of the American revolution there were over 3,000 different religious groups in America. Yes the "pilgrims" meaning the puritans who landed at Plymouth Rock were seeking religious liberty to some degree, but nearly all the original colonies excluding Virginia were founded by groups seeking that liberty. Was that the only thing that drew people here? No, but it is a recurring theme. Examples: Roger Williams (a Englishman who thought the Church of England to be iredeemibly corrupt, certainly he wasn't searching for liberty ) literally was chased out of Boston for pushing for the freedom to worship as he saw fit and founded Providence RI. Rhode Island was founded on the very notion that "forced worship stinks in God's nostrils."

Then there was this guy called William Penn (haven't heard that name before in the context of American place names or anything). He was a Quaker. Quakers were being killed by the hundreds and jailed by the thousands in England for daring to say that individuals each harbor the holy spirit within them and that holiness is not meted out by some centralized religious "bank of Jesus" like the Church of England or Catholic Church. Anyhow, he fled to Rhode Island (seeking religious freedom since he didn't want to be killed or jailed) and the king owed his pops some money so he got the charter to the colony of what is now called Pennsylvania. No search for religious freedom here though, it's not like states are named after people who literally came here looking for that or anything...

Then there was George Calvert who founded Maryland as a refuge for Catholics who were persecuted in England. He was motivated by "the sacred duty of finding a refuge for his Roman Catholic brethren". Eventually Maryland was overrun by the Church of England, but it's origins were as a Catholic refuge.

And I could go on and on about this. Wave after wave of immigrants came to this continent seeking a place where they could do whatever they want and be left alone. That created fertile ground for the ideas of the enlightenment to translate into actual action. After the revolution, religious freedom continued to be a draw and still is to this day.

So I know the whole "explain in 10 pages why American ideals are actually a myth" is a super popular liberal arts college paper topic, but the facts don't lie. Your view of history is very shallow if you think the "pilgrims" are the only group that came here seeking those rights.

No one else at the time "fled Europe" for "religious freedom". Other colonial immigrants were English aristocrats who wanted large estates where land was available and cheap, along with their English indentured servants (in exchange for passage), and of course a large number of African slaves. The Irish came because of the Potato Famine. The Italians (at least the surge in the late 19th century) came because of poverty in the south of Italy following unification. The big waves of German immigration in the 19th century were due to political upheaval (particularly after 1848), but this had literally nothing to do with "culture", "habits" or "not fitting in".

I already thoroughly trashed the notion that "no one else" came for religious freedom, but let's further destroy your silly claims. What the hell do you think caused the Potato Famine? Was it too much freedom in Ireland? What a joke, the Potato Famine was the culmination of a systematic genocide of Irish Catholics by the English protestants.

And you of course are focusing too much on religion and not the various other freedoms offered by North America that just weren't a thing in Europe. European culture had no traditions of individualism, freedom, liberties, etc. That's the fact. You act as if it is totally normal for entire groups of people to be driven out of a place for political reasons, well it is (was?) in Europe. The Germans and other groups who fled for political reasons literally "didn't fit in". What the hell else are you going to call that? "Oh they just had a friendly disagreement and decided to flee halfway around the world"? No, political freedom was not a thing in Europe. Just look at the French Revolution, even in their moment of Enlightenment inspired action, it digressed into systematic slaughter back and forth between groups over political ideas until Napoleon came in and instituted military rule. The worst political violence in the American Revolution amounted to dumping tea in harbors and tar and feathering loyalists. There was no "take them all to the guillotine". That is a radically different environment no matter who you ask. Was it because every American is an idealist? No, it was mainly because this continent has more space and resources so mass violence is less likely to break out. But I'm not arguing that America is different because they are all super awesome idealist savants, I'm arguing that a completely different culture arose here which embraces and enshrines certain ideals.

Sure most Americans were originally of European ancestory, but that doesn't mean they kept the same traditions for more than a generation or two after arriving here. The North American continent was a blank slate culturally and something very different arose here. To deny that is honestly just silly. I don't have a better word for it than that. It's silly.

[10023]

Of course American culture has evolved differently over the past two centuries. It was bound to, given both the physical distance and the blending of various European cultures. That makes it not English, but it doesn't make it less of a Western, European culture. It's certainly not Asian or African, and it doesn't have the indigenous influence of most Latin American cultures (aside from the Southern Cone, especially Argentina, where the native population was sparse and largely exterminated). Various parts of Europe have cultural differences as well, sometimes significant. And there's been an awful lot of cultural exchange between Europe and America over those two centuries, particularly amongst the elite.

Originally Posted by LouisVanDerWright

You act as if it is totally normal for entire groups of people to be driven out of a place for political reasons, well it is (was?) in Europe. The Germans and other groups who fled for political reasons literally "didn't fit in". What the hell else are you going to call that? "Oh they just had a friendly disagreement and decided to flee halfway around the world"? No, political freedom was not a thing in Europe. Just look at the French Revolution, even in their moment of Enlightenment inspired action, it digressed into systematic slaughter back and forth between groups over political ideas until Napoleon came in and instituted military rule. The worst political violence in the American Revolution amounted to dumping tea in harbors and tar and feathering loyalists. There was no "take them all to the guillotine". That is a radically different environment no matter who you ask. Was it because every American is an idealist? No, it was mainly because this continent has more space and resources so mass violence is less likely to break out.

You seem to have an oddly serene view of American history.

Aside from the systematic enslavement of millions of Africans, the Americans drove millions of Indians out of their lands into reservations, and the Civil War (a political and ideological conflict) remains the bloodiest war in American history.

[Steely Dan]

here's the deal:

canada and the USA can really be seen as a case of good son/bad son with regard to our parent, britain. we both approached dad to ask if we could have the car keys to go out on saturday night. dad said "no, you're not old enough yet", so the USA said "fuck you, dad, i can do what i want, you're not the boss of me" and stole the keys and went out anyway. canada (along with his french girlfriend) said "ok dad, i respect your decision, and when the time is right for me to have the keys, i trust that you'll give them to me".

i guess this makes australia the special needs child who was sent far, far away off to the nut house to be kept out of sight. (just kidding, aussie friends)

we're all still family to this very day. there's no way around it.

[JManc]

Originally Posted by 10023

Of course American culture has evolved differently over the past two centuries. It was bound to, given both the physical distance and the blending of various European cultures. That makes it not English, but it doesn't make it less of a Western, European culture. It's certainly not Asian or African. Different parts of Europe have cultural differences as well, sometimes significant. And there's been an awful lot of cultural exchange between Europe and America over those two centuries as well, particularly amongst the elite.

Exactly.

The US is an extension of Europe...established by a European power and largely populated by European immigrants...setting the pace of American culture early on. Even non "European" Americans have largely adopted Western/ European customs everyone else has done all along.