Phoenix | Derby | 240' | 21 Floors

[CrestedSaguaro]

Originally Posted by Ballister

You don't say?

Probably should've been a little more specific. I believe it's going to go UP one way or the other

[exit2lef]

Well here's an interesting development: Angels Trumpet has applied for a liquor license at another address. I don't know if this means a second location, or a move.

https://www.phoenix.gov/cityclerksit...20tall%20glass

[biggus diggus]

I'll ask him next time I see him, there was a very brief about uncertainty about the Derby and it ended with him saying he got 5' of space and doesn't "give a ****" what they build now.

That address is the old Sears Tire building.

edit: that application says "new license" so it must be an expansion.

[Obadno]

Originally Posted by exit2lef

Well here's an interesting development: Angels Trumpet has applied for a liquor license at another address. I don't know if this means a second location, or a move.

https://www.phoenix.gov/cityclerksit...20tall%20glass

Unless I'm reading this incorrectly it looks like they are opening an angels Trumpet in Old Town.

Good, Old town needs some new stuff the bar scene there is getting stale.

[exit2lef]

Originally Posted by Obadno

Unless I'm reading this incorrectly it looks like they are opening an angels Trumpet in Old Town.

Good, Old town needs some new stuff the bar scene there is getting stale.

The address is at the Arcadia Crossing shopping center, formerly the site of Thomas Mall. It's not in Scottsdale.

[ASU Diablo]

Originally Posted by Obadno

Unless I'm reading this incorrectly it looks like they are opening an angels Trumpet in Old Town.

Good, Old town needs some new stuff the bar scene there is getting stale.

huh? That's Arcadia. 4469 E Thomas Rd

[biggus diggus]

Originally Posted by Obadno

Unless I'm reading this incorrectly it looks like they are opening an angels Trumpet in Old Town.

Yes, you're reading it incorrectly.

Read my post above, this is going to be a new location opening in the Sears Auto building. There is a completion date and floor plan included in the application.

[gymratmanaz]

I always thought that Sears Auto shop would be a great location for a coffee shop or fun eatery!!!!!!! Keep the sliding doors for nice weather. Great addition to the area!!!!!! Halfway between Thomas and Oak on 44th ST.!!!!!

[Obadno]

Originally Posted by biggus diggus

Yes, you're reading it incorrectly.

Read my post above, this is going to be a new location opening in the Sears Auto building. There is a completion date and floor plan included in the application.

4241 N Winfield Scott Plaza Suite 200

I guess that must be the title company or whatever.

[biggus diggus]

Originally Posted by Obadno

4241 N Winfield Scott Plaza Suite 200

I guess that must be the title company or whatever.

I scrolled down to page 4 where you found that address, it's for the landlord of Arcadia Crossing which is the giant shopping center at the SEC of 44/Thomas.

[CrestedSaguaro]

Originally Posted by biggus diggus

I'll ask him next time I see him, there was a very brief about uncertainty about the Derby and it ended with him saying he got 5' of space and doesn't "give a ****" what they build now.

That address is the old Sears Tire building.

edit: that application says "new license" so it must be an expansion.

Good! Now ask him if he'll get Goldwater to drop the stupid lawsuit so this can get built!

[ASUSunDevil]

I'm in the area every day (44th & Thomas) and I won't be purchasing a single beer from that crybaby.

On with Derby

[combusean]

Seems Derby settled Angel's Trumpet's beef by adjusting their development with a reasonable setback, which is what they should have done all along. Derby's original intent to develop to the lot line was mean and stupid.

The owner of Angel's Trumpet has been unfairly demonized here. The points totally lost in the overall discussion are that if Derby were being built to the lot line, it would have harmed his business during construction and basically destroyed his chances of redeveloping his property once constructed. Put yourself in his shoes.

Goldwater's fight against the GPLET is a necessary evil. Harmful developments like the original Derby that are disputed by neighbors are totally undeserving of subsidies. And if Phoenix loses GPLET as a side effect of the process, it's because it was being abused.

The GPLET in Phoenix is used for anything, and I mean anything tall. It's not used for projects where profit is difficult like some of the smaller new affordable housing complexes. It's actively toxic to existing landlords that don't have the subsidy because they lose tenants to buildings they can't compete against. It sucks off needed tax dollars from underperforming local school districts.

Jumpstarting downtown development with it is a classic example of the road to hell paved with good intentions. Maybe the GPLET does need to go. Phoenix bends over backwards for blockbusting megaprojects while it ignores cool organic developments like the Max and Lucy building on 116 W McDowell. We need more Max and Lucies and fewer jerks like Derby.

[biggus diggus]

Amen, brother.

[exit2lef]

Originally Posted by combusean

The owner of Angel's Trumpet has been unfairly demonized here.

Perhaps if were talking only about the Derby and its GPLET, I might at least partially agree. In actuality, it's so much more. It's about his working with a legislator from Gilbert of all places to use legislative pre-emption to undermine the Roosevelt Row Business Improvement District. It's about complaining when the city charges market rates for street parking in order to encourage turnover. I don't hate Angels Trumpet; I still go there occasionally. Nevertheless, the owner's positions on numerous issues, even before the Derby came along, demonstrate a set of values and priorities that are far better suited to 44th St. and Thomas than they are to 2nd St. & McKinley.

[biggus diggus]

He's not moving to 44th and Thomas.

And his voice is looking out for the best interests of a local small business owner, not the interest of big developers. Which is more important to you?

[Obadno]

It is mean and stupid to build to the lot line in the urban core?

I disagree, If this kind of project is a problem for your business you shouldn't locate downtown, thats it. I read an article some months back where the owner was almost lamenting the fact that crack whores were no longer wondering around his parking lot.

I understand his feelings, that he located in a shady spot and he was part of reviving downtown when many wouldn't have taken the chance but that doesn't mean his bar wins out over 200+ new residents and a massive new investment in downtown.

[combusean]

Originally Posted by Obadno

It is mean and stupid to build to the lot line in the urban core?

Yes, for the reasons I mentioned. It was mean because Derby's enjoyment of their property shouldn't interfere with their neighbor's. Much like the right to do what I want ends at your body, it is a fundamental tenet of respect.

And it was stupid, because it caused massive and expensive delays for their project and nearly killed it.

Comparing one tower vs one bar is short-sighted--developing with a reasonable setback gives us two towers when the Angel's Trumpet owner decides to redevelop.

[combusean]

Originally Posted by exit2lef

Perhaps if were talking only about the Derby and its GPLET, I might at least partially agree. In actuality, it's so much more. It's about his working with a legislator from Gilbert of all places to use legislative pre-emption to undermine the Roosevelt Row Business Improvement District. It's about complaining when the city charges market rates for street parking in order to encourage turnover. I don't hate Angels Trumpet; I still go there occasionally. Nevertheless, the owner's positions on numerous issues, even before the Derby came along, demonstrate a set of values and priorities that are far better suited to 44th St. and Thomas than they are to 2nd St. & McKinley.

Yeah, I think that lack of respect for local control is one of the worst issues with Arizona and wildly hypocritical for conservatives. Phoenix would be a vastly better city if Arizona actually embraced limited government and got out of its way instead of forcing limited government down the throats of people who don't want it.

That being said, I don't disagree with the new BID formation rules. It's a shame they have to start over, but the initial process, however legal, was faulty and undemocratic. If they can't get it done under the new rules, the BID shouldn't be formed. As for how the BID relates to Angel's Trumpet, I'd probably be annoyed too if I had to spend thousands of dollars in extra taxes a year (that's a lot of beer!) for something I didn't see the results of or felt that I didn't have a voice in the process. The BID managers for downtown, Downtown Phoenix Inc, were my enemy when I lived there for what it's worth. I was in constant opposition to those jerks.

As for parking, he's an idiot--nothing goes on in neighborhoods with abundant parking, and the lack of parking would encourage alternative transportation without the additional risk of a DUI, which in his case means more beer sold. It's also interesting to consider that such a flagrant conservative is depending on the subsidy of free parking and refuses market pricing on the matter. Some people...

[exit2lef]

Originally Posted by biggus diggus

He's not moving to 44th and Thomas.

And his voice is looking out for the best interests of a local small business owner, not the interest of big developers. Which is more important to you?

Not yet, but I wouldn't be the slightest bit surprised if there were an eventual move following a brief period of operating two locations. What I meant to convey, however, is that perhaps AT should move, regardless of what the actual plans are. As for the claim that AT is the voice of a silent majority of business owners, you've suggested that several times but consistently declined to provide evidence. Until some other specific businesses are named in support of AT's positions, I don't find the silent majority claim convincing.