Cities that have more in common than not

[bilbao58]

Originally Posted by Steely Dan

Pre-covid, chicago's highest pedestrian loads could be found along the mag mile and in the vicinity of millennium park.

Pretty crowded, but still well below manhattan's crushing peaks, and over much smaller geographies.

Decades ago I tried to catch a bus down around Tribune Tower during a weekday rush hour. The bus was too crowded, so I decided to walk and catch the next bus. When I did finally get on a bus in front of John Hancock Center, it was the SAME bus. I was moving faster than it was. I got on anyway and rode standing in the door well through Lincoln Park to Fullerton.

[sopas ej]

Originally Posted by Buckeye Native 001

It's legal, but I hated it when I lived in Orange County, and I can't help but wonder if it's a holdover from growing up in the Midwest? Hell, I don't remember that being too common either in Phoenix when I lived there, but maybe that's changed in the last decade?

I don't even know why I disliked it so much: The danger? Inability to react? Someone zipping by while I was stuck in traffic?

So far, California is the only state where it's legal for motorcyclists to lane split.

Utah and Hawaii have recently legalized what they call "lane filtering," where if the traffic speed is completely stopped or falls below a certain speed, then motorcyclists can lane split. I think Hawaii now allows their motorcyclists to ride on the shoulder if traffic has come to a complete stop on the highway.

[Centropolis]

Originally Posted by Buckeye Native 001

It's legal, but I hated it when I lived in Orange County, and I can't help but wonder if it's a holdover from growing up in the Midwest? Hell, I don't remember that being too common either in Phoenix when I lived there, but maybe that's changed in the last decade?

I don't even know why I disliked it so much: The danger? Inability to react? Someone zipping by while I was stuck in traffic?

ive seen some heinous motorcycle wrecks in real time - almost always the result of an unexpected merge. watched a guy go over his handlebars and smack his head on the ground so hard his helmet split in half and one piece was just spinning like a top in the expressway. he was motionless of course.

so yeah watching endless motorscycles lane splitting is hard to watch.

[ue]

Originally Posted by Razor

How is the crush of people in DT Chicago on a summer Saturday afternoon?
Just curious?..NYC was a little overwhelming on my one and only visit (I wasn't prepared for the Times square onslaught), and Philly was enjoyable and relaxed. Is Chicago somewhere in between, or can it get pretty close to NYC levels on a busy holiday weekend?

Interesting. I was personally surprised by Times Square, in so far as pedestrian volumes were not as high as I thought they'd be. No doubt it is a busy area, but Shibuya and Shinjuku are busier. I do wonder if my impression of it would have been different had I visited New York before Tokyo.

[Buckeye Native 001]

Originally Posted by Centropolis

ive seen some heinous motorcycle wrecks in real time - almost always the result of an unexpected merge. watched a guy go over his handlebars and smack his head on the ground so hard his helmet split in half and one piece was just spinning like a top in the expressway. he was motionless of course.

so yeah watching endless motorscycles lane splitting is hard to watch.

I am thankful that I never witnessed anything like that (and am sorry you've had to experience that), but just the mere thought of the potential for it happening creeped me out.

[JManc]

Originally Posted by SIGSEGV

Michigan ave between the bean and the hancock can be a crush.

Yeah, that's busy stretch. Pretty close to New York (besides Times Sq) levels. Similar to SF and Montreal from my experiences.

[Chef]

Originally Posted by hipster duck

Type B:

Chicago

<big gap>

Seattle
Denver
Minneapolis

Once you put St Paul into the equation Minneapolis turns into a type C. In the '80s I had an urban geography professor who claimed that the Twin Cities were basically a smaller, landlocked version of LA when it came to urban form and development patterns - central cities that were mostly early 20th century streetcar suburbs, a decentralized metro with multiple cores, and a freeway system that formed a metro grid rather than a hub and spokes.

[Centropolis]

Originally Posted by Chef

Once you put St Paul into the equation Minneapolis turns into a type C. In the '80s I had an urban geography professor who claimed that the Twin Cities were basically a smaller, landlocked version of LA when it came to urban form and development patterns - central cities that were mostly early 20th century streetcar suburbs, a decentralized metro with multiple cores, and a freeway system that formed a metro grid rather than a hub and spokes.

i never thought of this but i can sort of see it. monstrous freeway/expressway infrastructure to boot tying it all together in a “it kinda works” sort of way instead of “whoops we blighted half the region.” its expansive enough that if you miss your turn you just take the next connector...its not like chicago where you are kind of fucked.


i think other than maybe KC and Detroit those non-interstate (and non-toll) freeway connectors are kind of unique in the twin cities to the midwest. unlike Detroit they didn’t destroy the city.

[Centropolis]

twin cities also has the on ramp stoplights if i recall which is evocative.

[Razor]

Originally Posted by Steely Dan

Pre-covid, chicago's highest pedestrian loads could be found along the mag mile and in the vicinity of millennium park.

Pretty crowded, but still below manhattan's crushing peaks In places like times square, and over a smaller geography.

Originally Posted by SIGSEGV

Michigan ave between the bean and the hancock can be a crush.

Thanks! I really need to get out there..Bucket list.

Originally Posted by ue

Interesting. I was personally surprised by Times Square, in so far as pedestrian volumes were not as high as I thought they'd be. No doubt it is a busy area, but Shibuya and Shinjuku are busier. I do wonder if my impression of it would have been different had I visited New York before Tokyo.

It's all relative to one's own experience I suppose.I was in NYC during a long weekend (both countries), so the pedestrian traffic may of been amplified more then normal..We also stayed right in DT Toronto just a few months later over Christmas, and Yonge and Dundas on Christmas Eve with the throng of last minute Christmas shoppers was pretty darn busy, but even with the help of a busy shopping day, it still wasn't quite the same as a non descript long weekend in the Apple.

[Crawford]

Weekend traffic in Manhattan is far less than weekday traffic, for obvious reasons. Intl. tourism isn't weekend-centered, millions of office workers aren't present, and upper class Manhattanites usually have weekend homes.

Times Square is probably busiest on weekday evenings right before Broadway start times, so around 7 PM. But heaviest pedestrian traffic in NYC isn't in Times Square, it's around 34th Street/7th Ave., around Penn Station.

Least busy times in Manhattan are undoubtedly the summer holidays - Labor Day, Memorial Day, July 4. Busiest season is generally September-December.

[iheartthed]

Originally Posted by ue

Interesting. I was personally surprised by Times Square, in so far as pedestrian volumes were not as high as I thought they'd be. No doubt it is a busy area, but Shibuya and Shinjuku are busier. I do wonder if my impression of it would have been different had I visited New York before Tokyo.

That's interesting. I felt the opposite about Shibuya. It feels far more open than Times Square.

Originally Posted by Crawford

Weekend traffic in Manhattan is far less than weekday traffic, for obvious reasons. Intl. tourism isn't weekend-centered, millions of office workers aren't present, and upper class Manhattanites usually have weekend homes.

Times Square is probably busiest on weekday evenings right before Broadway start times, so around 7 PM. But heaviest pedestrian traffic in NYC isn't in Times Square, it's around 34th Street/7th Ave., around Penn Station.

Least busy times in Manhattan are undoubtedly the summer holidays - Labor Day, Memorial Day, July 4. Busiest season is generally September-December.

The absolute worst time to ever find yourself caught in Times Square is the week between Christmas and New Year's Eve. I got caught in a literal pedestrian traffic jam there around that time. People were packed so tightly on the sidewalk that you couldn't move. This was back during the high terror alert days, so I was also worried about terrorist suicide bombers.

[jtown,man]

Originally Posted by Razor

How is the crush of people in DT Chicago on a summer Saturday afternoon?
Just curious?..NYC was a little overwhelming on my one and only visit (I wasn't prepared for the Times square onslaught), and Philly was enjoyable and relaxed. Is Chicago somewhere in between, or can it get pretty close to NYC levels on a busy holiday weekend?

Pre-Covid I had a meeting I was attending at the Metra building(west of Sears) and I literally had to stand to the side to let the rush of people who obviously just left Union Station pass by me on a bridge. It was one of my first times out in the city since I moved here and it was a rush. Monday morning though.

[MolsonExport]

Shibuya and Shinjuku offer a crush of people unlike anywhere else I have visited. Leaves New York's densest areas well behind. On the whole, Seoul is denser than Tokyo, however, I cannot recall a part of it that approached Shinjuku-style density.

[Handro]

New York's pedestrian bustle leaves Chicago (and by extension every other North American city I've ever visited) in the dust. Forget Times Square (obviously very crowded and busy), I remember walking on I think 10th or 11th Avenue on a summer day in the mid afternoon and the number of people on the street felt like trying to navigate a music festival. Every time I come back to Chicago from New York it feels like I'm returning to a small town, which is crazy to consider. Boston and Philly may compare from a few similar blocks of built environment, but the scale of human activity is unmatched anywhere in NA.

[iheartthed]

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

Shibuya and Shinjuku offer a crush of people unlike anywhere else I have visited. Leaves New York's densest areas well behind. On the whole, Seoul is denser than Tokyo, however, I cannot recall a part of it that approached Shinjuku-style density.

Shibuya Crossing may have more pedestrians that cross the intersection, but it's definitely not as dense as Times Square. I think you can clearly see that from the Google Street view of the two areas:

Shibuya: https://goo.gl/maps/tpHjiijgdDeCg2kr5

Times Square: https://goo.gl/maps/zQWNL1zkpeeAmm6D8

[MolsonExport]

Originally Posted by iheartthed

Shibuya Crossing may have more pedestrians that cross the intersection, but it's definitely not as dense as Times Square. I think can clearly see that from the Google Street view of the two areas:

Shibuya: https://goo.gl/maps/tpHjiijgdDeCg2kr5

Times Square: https://goo.gl/maps/zQWNL1zkpeeAmm6D8

Having been to both perhaps hundreds of times, in the mornings, afternoons, evenings, and late evenings, I respectfully disagree.

[Crawford]

Re. Tokyo, I don't think there's particularly impressive pedestrian crush, at all, unless we're talking inside, within rail hubs, where pedestrian counts are probably unmatched.

On the street, Tokyo is very nodal. Pedestrian crush doesn't really exist except around transit entrances. HK, on the other hand, has some heavy linear corridors. HK has the extreme density, Tokyo has moderate density.

In U.S./Canada, putting aside NYC, which is just not worth comparing, I think SF, Boston, Chicago and Toronto have the most consistent crowds. I think (again, excepting NYC) Toronto might have the most impressive non-core pedestrian counts, but Chicago's Michigan Ave. might be the most impressive core corridor?

[iheartthed]

Originally Posted by Crawford

Re. Tokyo, I don't think there's particularly impressive pedestrian crush, at all, unless we're talking inside, within rail hubs, where pedestrian counts are probably unmatched.

Agreed. Tokyo's train stations are on another level, but the general pedestrian experience is not extraordinary to someone who lives in New York.

[hipster duck]

Originally Posted by iheartthed

Agreed. Tokyo's train stations are on another level, but the general pedestrian experience is not extraordinary to someone who lives in New York.

I think a lot of the perception from Westerners who think Tokyo is on another level boils down to the psychological impact of being in a foreign environment where you can't speak the language nor read the signage.

In that kind of environment, you kind of go into a bit of a heightened sense - like a fight or flight response, so you think that you're in an environment that's more intense than it really is.

Tokyo hits you on 4 levels:

- can't speak the language
- can't read the language (or even make out how it would sound, like an alphabetical language)
- most people around you can't speak your language

And

- the fact that traffic drives on the left means you have to reorient your expectations of where a car comes from, or which side the subway will come on a platform.

This last one even catches me off guard in London, which is a city where we don't have the first three issues.