Tucson Development Thread

[Patrick S]

Originally Posted by phxSUNSfan

I like reading about some of the developments in Tucson...especially useful when I have to be in Tucson and when I watch the Territorial Cup game there. That said, I think Tucson could learn much about urban development from Tempe and Phoenix; especially doing it in an urban, desert environment. After all, Phoenix's Roosevelt Row was recently called one of the 10 best neighborhoods in the country (Happening hub for art, food)...along with Austin's East Side.
http://www.usatoday.com/story/travel...d-yet/2078741/

Of course Phoenix's suburbs are no more interesting than Tucson's or Vegas' (or Austin's, for that matter), but it's time to start looking at the state's truly dynamic neighborhoods and using them as a basis for what can be done in once were considered dead zones. It's not in a desert environment, but one of my favorite streets/areas in Arizona is the contiguous blocks of historic buildings, galleries, bars, restaurants, and shops in Flagstaff along Aspen St. ( you can add San Francisco St to that). It is the mountain town's unique version of Mill Ave.

To each there own. I'll admit I've only been to Vegas a couple times (my girlfriend's parents moved there a couple years ago) and both there and Phoenix I haven't explored all that much beyond downtown (and the strip in Vegas) and the outskirts of the city. Let's be fair about the article you reference though - it doesn't say these are the 10 best neighborhoods in the country, it says they are the 10 best in the country that haven't been discovered by tourists. Most big cities I've been too have I've only spent a week or so in - including Seattle, San Francisco, Washington D.C., Boston (actually only 1 night - really was spending time on Martha's Vineyard), New York City, LA, San Diego and New Orleans. Most of these trips were when I was in my teens (so over 15 years ago, though New Orleans was only about 5-6 years ago). I also spent most of the time doing the touristy things, but places like San Fran and New Orleans just have so much uniqueness to them - something only they have. I've spent much time in St. Louis (grew up 2 hours from there) and Chicago (grew up 5-6 hours from there and had many friends in college from there, plus some relatives in the suburbs). Chicago is huge but is so distinct. Most of my time in Phoenix was actually when I was in my teens too - my dad's folks lived in Chandler and we would come out from Illinois to see spring training games (even came down here to Tucson for one or two) over my spring breaks from grade and high school in the early-to-mid '90s. Phoenix is nice, I guess. It's too big for me (I grew up in a town of 25,000 people that was the biggest town for 100 miles). I thought about moving to Chicago after graduating college but it was too big for me. The town I grew up in was a college town. It was rural, and had some things found in big-cities, but it had its own unique, funky charm. Interesting shops and restaurants found only there. I like those kind of things, which is one reason I like Tucson. It has things found in all (or most) big cities, and more opportunities and things to do than where I was from, without being too big. I do want it to grow, but I don't want it to lose the charm and uniqueness it has too.

[phxSUNSfan]

Originally Posted by Patrick S

To each there own. I'll admit I've only been to Vegas a couple times

Vegas isn't original in anyway. Even the "historic" neon district seems fake to me and I'm not a big fan of that city. There isn't too much difference between "best neighborhoods" and "best neighborhoods tourist haven't found yet"; in other words, those added words don't take away from the designation...if anything it recognizes the unique vibe which hopefully isn't ruined with more development that is underway. But these neighborhoods tend to find a way to balance those contrasts (new and old).

What I love about Roosevelt in Phoenix is all the historic districts around it...that are still being connected to one another. All the murals painted by local artists makes the area look like a big canvas. I like the colorful shops in Tucson, especially along 4th...hopefully, it keeps that vibrant color scheme as well.

[Ted Lyons]

Originally Posted by phxSUNSfan

That said, I think Tucson could learn much about urban development from Tempe and Phoenix

Just because someone mentions Phoenix doesn't mean you have to post this again. We get it.

[Patrick S]

Saw this article below on CNN.com about the best "get-fit" resorts in the USA. Decided I'd look at it on a lark, thinking there might be an outside chance Tucson had a resort on the list. To my surprise the picture that greets you at the top of the article is from the Miraval Resort and the first place mentioned is the Miraval as well. Of the 5 mentioned in the article, the Miraval is one of only two actually located in the US (the others are in Utah; British Columbia, Canada; Costa Rica; and Mexico), and is by far the cheapest. A little good press for the area is nice. Here's what it had to say about it:

Best get-fit retreats in and around the U.S.
By Caitlin Drexler, Executive Travel

Miraval Resort: Tucson, Arizona
Miraval's sprawling 400-acre campus, just outside Tucson, routinely hosts execs from Fortune 500 companies such as Nike and Google. Take part in the Discover Miraval package here (for as many days/nights as you choose) and you'll see why: the healthful pursuits here range from daily yoga and meditation classes to private nutritional consultations to rock climbing up the granite crags of 7,000-foot Mount Lemmon, the highest point in the Santa Catalina Mountains. The vast menu of relaxing body treatments (reflexology, hot stone massage) and the delicious spa cuisine served at the onsite Cactus Flower restaurant certainly don't hurt, either. From $633 per night.

- By the way, I put a comment at the bottom of the article letting people know that Mt. Lemmon is over 9,000 feet in elevation, but since Tucson is over 2,000 feet in elevation it is 7,000 feet (or so) taller than Tucson, and that it is the farthest south ski resort in the continental US.

[farmerk]

Originally Posted by aznate27

Are you talking about the new apartments that are supposed to be built next to the six story senior housing? Would be cool if they are starting that one. I think it was supposed to be started around this time.

aznate27, yep. There's some construction crews and a handful of large construction equipment at that long spot besides the 6 story senior housing. I don't think they're working on the streetcar tracks (as previous visit) because the tracks are laid down as I see it. There's also 2-3 houses that are being built at the Mercado housing developments. Looks like real estate development is picking up in Tucson.

[PHX31]

Originally Posted by Ted Lyons

Just because someone mentions Phoenix doesn't mean you have to post this again. We get it.

I think it's warranted when people mention Phoenix and Las Vegas in the same breath as having no charm. Phoenix and Tucson are much closer to each other than Phoenix and Las Vegas... the comparison is silly. Phoenix has basically the same amount of historical charm (I'm assuming this is where the charm comes in) as Tucson - we both have several historic neighborhoods that surround our downtown, and active areas with unique streets, shops, restaurants, people, etc.. Whereas Las Vegas might have 1 tiny block of pre-war anything (that I have found, at least). Show me anything in Las Vegas that is like Willow, Roosevelt, Coronado (in Phoenix), or Armory Park, West University, or Sam Hughes (in Tucson).

I think the difference between Phoenix and Tucson is Tucson pretty much languished for decades, which is good and bad. Good, because the ugly cycle of historic destruction for urban renewal wasn't as bad in Tucson as it was in Phoenix, but bad because the majority of the rest of the city and suburbs aren't as nice and modern (a lot of that is the cookie cutter garbage we all hate, but there is plenty of nice new modern out there too).

[Ted Lyons]

Originally Posted by PHX31

I think it's warranted when people mention Phoenix and Las Vegas in the same breath as having no charm. Phoenix and Tucson are much closer to each other than Phoenix and Las Vegas... the comparison is silly. Phoenix has basically the same amount of historical charm (I'm assuming this is where the charm comes in) as Tucson - we both have several historic neighborhoods that surround our downtown, and active areas with unique streets, shops, restaurants, people, etc.. Whereas Las Vegas might have 1 tiny block of pre-war anything (that I have found, at least). Show me anything in Las Vegas that is like Willow, Roosevelt, Coronado (in Phoenix), or Armory Park, West University, or Sam Hughes (in Tucson).

I think the difference between Phoenix and Tucson is Tucson pretty much languished for decades, which is good and bad. Good, because the ugly cycle of historic destruction for urban renewal wasn't as bad in Tucson as it was in Phoenix, but bad because the majority of the rest of the city and suburbs aren't as nice and modern (a lot of that is the cookie cutter garbage we all hate, but there is plenty of nice new modern out there too).

This is both insightful and informed. A blanket statement that Tucson should model its urban development after Phoenix, especially as that development regards our desert setting is utterly ridiculous. The model of completely irresponsible water usage and sprawl that most Valley cities have adopted shouldn't be an inspiration for anyone anywhere. On that level, Vegas is arguably a better model than Phoenix.

As for perceived charm, I don't know why anyone would get upset that internet strangers prefer one city to another. I will say that, if we're comparing neighborhood to neighborhood, (which I don't think is the sole/primary definition of "charm" anyway), Phoenix will probably come out on top in terms of pure volume of "historic" neighborhoods because it's been a bigger city since Arizona became a state. However, volume doesn't reflect on a traveler's reality and, as you note, slower development in Tucson (for better or worse) has left us with a larger percentage of midcentury and earlier properties citywide.

[phxSUNSfan]

Originally Posted by Ted Lyons

This is both insightful and informed. A blanket statement that Tucson should model its urban development after Phoenix, especially as that development regards our desert setting is utterly ridiculous. The model of completely irresponsible water usage and sprawl that most Valley cities have adopted shouldn't be an inspiration for anyone anywhere. On that level, Vegas is arguably a better model than Phoenix.

Very inaccurate and highly volatile statements. First, the model I am referring to is in terms of transportation (light rail, expanded bus service including free service offered) and transit oriented development (density near transit stops). No one is referring to modeling the suburban sprawl every U.S. city has. Also, though downtown Phoenix and Tempe are greener than most of Tucson, there are many benefits of this type of shade in urban vicinities. Particularly, it offers denser neighborhoods reprieve and allows more people to enjoy greenspace; thus, water is conserved in the long run (less individual yards/plants to water/creation of underground water basins like at Civic Space Park). More shade also translates into less of an urban heat island which ultimately means that neighborhoods like downtown don't require as much power to cool structures...less power consumption means less water used in the generation of power.

I wouldn't argue that Vegas offers a better model. That city hardly has a transportation system and does not have any neighborhoods with bones that surround large employment centers like downtown or midtown. One thing I always thought was on Tucson's side was having such a large, well-established university so close to downtown; which is basically Tucson's largest employment center and it has those same type of historic neighborhoods around it.

[Ted Lyons]

Originally Posted by phxSUNSfan

Very inaccurate and highly volatile statements.

Highly volatile? Uh oh. FYI, they're totally accurate.

First, the model which I am referring to is in terms of transportation (light rail, expanded bus service including free service offered) and transit oriented development (density near transit stops).

On a smaller level, since we're a smaller city, Tucson has adopted these models. This is common knowledge. Even if it hadn't, Phoenix wasn't the pacesetter in this field anyway.

Also, though downtown Phoenix and Tempe are greener than most of Tucson, there are many benefits of this type of shade in urban vicinities.

Grass, residential swimming pools, misters on restaurant patios that blow out into parking lots, and a giant fake river don't provide shade.

I wouldn't argue that Vegas offers a better model.

Water-wise, this is fundamentally false.

[aznate27]

Originally Posted by Patrick S

Saw this article below on CNN.com about the best "get-fit" resorts in the USA. Decided I'd look at it on a lark, thinking there might be an outside chance Tucson had a resort on the list. To my surprise the picture that greets you at the top of the article is from the Miraval Resort and the first place mentioned is the Miraval as well. Of the 5 mentioned in the article, the Miraval is one of only two actually located in the US (the others are in Utah; British Columbia, Canada; Costa Rica; and Mexico), and is by far the cheapest. A little good press for the area is nice. Here's what it had to say about it:

Best get-fit retreats in and around the U.S.
By Caitlin Drexler, Executive Travel

Miraval Resort: Tucson, Arizona
Miraval's sprawling 400-acre campus, just outside Tucson, routinely hosts execs from Fortune 500 companies such as Nike and Google. Take part in the Discover Miraval package here (for as many days/nights as you choose) and you'll see why: the healthful pursuits here range from daily yoga and meditation classes to private nutritional consultations to rock climbing up the granite crags of 7,000-foot Mount Lemmon, the highest point in the Santa Catalina Mountains. The vast menu of relaxing body treatments (reflexology, hot stone massage) and the delicious spa cuisine served at the onsite Cactus Flower restaurant certainly don't hurt, either. From $633 per night.

- By the way, I put a comment at the bottom of the article letting people know that Mt. Lemmon is over 9,000 feet in elevation, but since Tucson is over 2,000 feet in elevation it is 7,000 feet (or so) taller than Tucson, and that it is the farthest south ski resort in the continental US.

I'd like to say that I helped in some way to make Miraval one of the top spa resorts in the world...they do sign my paychecks after all

[aznate27]

Originally Posted by farmerk

aznate27, yep. There's some construction crews and a handful of large construction equipment at that long spot besides the 6 story senior housing. I don't think they're working on the streetcar tracks (as previous visit) because the tracks are laid down as I see it. There's also 2-3 houses that are being built at the Mercado housing developments. Looks like real estate development is picking up in Tucson.

Cool! Once the west side is built, including some 10 story planned high-rises, it will be nice to see downtown built upwards on both sides of the freeway

[Patrick S]

Originally Posted by aznate27

Cool! Once the west side is built, including some 10 story planned high-rises, it will be nice to see downtown built upwards on both sides of the freeway

Didn't know there were any planned 10 story buildings for the west-side of I-10. Though I wouldn't exactly call those high-rises, I totally agree that it will be nice to drive down I-10 and have taller buildings on both sides of the interstate.

[ASUSunDevil]

Originally Posted by Ted Lyons

Highly volatile? Uh oh. FYI, they're totally accurate.



On a smaller level, since we're a smaller city, Tucson has adopted these models. This is common knowledge. Even if it hadn't, Phoenix wasn't the pacesetter in this field anyway.



Grass, residential swimming pools, misters on restaurant patios that blow out into parking lots, and a giant fake river don't provide shade.



Water-wise, this is fundamentally false.

Tucson has some good Mexican food and does a mediocre job of trying to keep up with Tempe's urban development: you're not even in Phoenix's class. Congrats on Pizzeria Bianco and another new Applebee's for your senior citizen's. 41-34.

[phxSUNSfan]

Originally Posted by Ted Lyons

Highly volatile? Uh oh. FYI, they're totally accurate.

They are completely off base...especially in Central Phoenix.

On a smaller level, since we're a smaller city, Tucson has adopted these models. This is common knowledge. Even if it hadn't, Phoenix wasn't the pacesetter in this field anyway.

For desert environments, Phoenix would be. This is particularly true in the integration of native vegetation in downtown and new streetscape projects.

Grass, residential swimming pools, misters on restaurant patios that blow out into parking lots, and a giant fake river don't provide shade.

I know Tucson restaurants use misters as well. However, I think you are missing the point that we are speaking about the downtown and Central City revitalization. The Salt River isn't fake, Tempe's Town Lake is, but interestingly, it is filled with water from its own river upstream. The number of residential swimming pools in Arizona on a whole, have decreased dramatically since the 80's and 90's.

Water-wise, this is fundamentally false.

Water-wise, this is extremely true when comparing Vegas and Phoenix. Vegas actually uses water from Lake Mead to water its golf courses and fill its massive resort fountains. Phoenix, uses gray water for those purposes. Phoenix is also one of the nation's leading cities for building energy efficient buildings:
"The other top metro areas, in descending order, include Chicago (353 buildings), New York (325), Atlanta (304), San Francisco (291), Houston (241), Dallas Fort-Worth (214), Phoenix (202) and Boston (188.) Among the top 10, Phoenix has shown the most improvement, moving from 22nd place in 2008 to ninth last year. New York, which recently required its commercial buildings to disclose their energy use, moved up from 12th in 2008."
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/n...s-epa/1982429/

[Ted Lyons]

Originally Posted by phxSUNSfan

They are completely off base...especially in Central Phoenix.

Of course, you can't limit the entire city to one specific area. That would be nonsensical.

For desert environments, Phoenix would be. This is particularly true in the integration of native vegetation in downtown and new streetscape projects.

And Tucson is the pacesetter for urban development in Pima County. Again, setting severe unstated limitations on your argument is a waste of everyone's time.

I know Tucson restaurants use misters as well.

I can't think of a single restaurant here that uses misters. Maybe the three at La Encantada. Otherwise, this is false.

However, I think you are missing the point that we are speaking about the downtown and Central City revitalization.

See, when you bring up development as it relates to our natural environment, you kind of aren't talking solely about revitalization.

The number of residential swimming pools in Arizona on a whole, have decreased dramatically since the 80's and 90's.

And this matters how?

Water-wise, this is extremely true when comparing Vegas and Phoenix. Vegas actually uses water from Lake Mead to water its golf courses and fill its massive resort fountains.

You literally just made this up. The fountain at Bellagio, which is all I can figure you're referencing, uses recycled water. The city of Las Vegas has been paying people to remove grass from their yards for years.

Meanwhile, Tempe Town Lake, which only uses some reclaimed water, averages evaporation rates of 5.2 acre feet a day. Even Tempe acknowledges that the lake loses the equivalent of two golf courses worth of water a year to evaporation. I doubt all of the Vegas strip water features combined lose that much water per year.

Phoenix, uses gray water for those purposes.

Another blanket statement disproved by the information above.

I'm really sick of talking about a subject that belongs in the Phoenix threads. Sadly, you've now attracted some slightly more annoying sidekicks to our thread.

[Ted Lyons]

Originally Posted by ASUSunDevil

Tucson has some good Mexican food and does a mediocre job of trying to keep up with Tempe's urban development: you're not even in Phoenix's class. Congrats on Pizzeria Bianco and another new Applebee's for your senior citizen's. 41-34.

What's hilarious about this is that there are 25 Applebee's in Phoenix and 4 in Tucson. That's one for every 172k people where you live and one for every 248k people where we live. Keep trying, though.

[combusean]

City vs city debates or comparing the two or whatever is not kosher for this thread. The next person to comment about that here will have his posts deleted and/or risk suspension.

Please keep the discussion on topic, or start a different thread.

[Ritarancher]

Originally Posted by combusean

City vs city debates or comparing the two or whatever is not kosher for this thread. The next person to comment about that here will have his posts deleted and/or risk suspension.

Please keep the discussion on topic, or start a different thread.

I sort of agree. Besides comparing Tucson, Phoenix and Las Vegas are like comparing oranges, tangerines and clementines. Each city has a few things special like Las Vegas' strip or the size of Phoenix or Tucson's Rainforest of a desert (Technically our rainfall amounts make us a grassland and not a desert). But please do make a separate page about better types of "citrus". But look in the big picture. The only two countries to have a 1mile by 1mile city grid incorporated into their cities are in the United States and Canada, which I feel should be part of us. If somebody came here from Paris, they'd probably be amazed at how everybody gets their own property and how we have a downtown that has been around since the 1800s and how there are Fry's on every intersection and Walmart and Park Place and our 3 lane roads everywhere and our ECT...... We're not the most unique cities in America but we're very unique on a global scale. So it's hard to determine which city is better. I know first hand that everybody is biased towards a city and would go to war to prove that their city is better than the next. So be nice to the Phoenix people when they bring up something about Phoenix, quit being so defensive. AND yes there are MANY MANY MANY places in Tucson that use misters, I've got some in my backyard as a matter of fact.

[Ted Lyons]

Originally Posted by combusean

City vs city debates or comparing the two or whatever is not kosher for this thread. The next person to comment about that here will have his posts deleted and/or risk suspension.

Please keep the discussion on topic, or start a different thread.

Thank you for clearing this up.

[Patrick S]

Originally Posted by Ritarancher

I sort of agree. Besides comparing Tucson, Phoenix and Las Vegas are like comparing oranges, tangerines and clementines. Each city has a few things special like Las Vegas' strip or the size of Phoenix or Tucson's Rainforest of a desert (Technically our rainfall amounts make us a grassland and not a desert). But please do make a separate page about better types of "citrus". But look in the big picture. The only two countries to have a 1mile by 1mile city grid incorporated into their cities are in the United States and Canada, which I feel should be part of us. If somebody came here from Paris, they'd probably be amazed at how everybody gets their own property and how we have a downtown that has been around since the 1800s and how there are Fry's on every intersection and Walmart and Park Place and our 3 lane roads everywhere and our ECT...... We're not the most unique cities in America but we're very unique on a global scale. So it's hard to determine which city is better. I know first hand that everybody is biased towards a city and would go to war to prove that their city is better than the next. So be nice to the Phoenix people when they bring up something about Phoenix, quit being so defensive. AND yes there are MANY MANY MANY places in Tucson that use misters, I've got some in my backyard as a matter of fact.

Though Tucson does receive more rainfall than what normally qualifies for a desert environment, it is still considered as such. According to Wikipedia: "Tucson has a desert climate (Köppen Bwh), with two major seasons, summer and winter; plus three minor seasons: fall, spring, and the monsoon. Though Tucson receives more precipitation than most other locations with desert climates, it still qualifies due to its high evapotranspiration in spite of receiving 11.8 inches (299.7 mm) of precipitation per year; in other words, it experiences a high net loss of water. A similar scenario is seen in Alice Springs, Australia which averages 11 inches (279.4 mm) a year, but has a desert climate."