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  #21  
Old Posted Jun 25, 2014, 3:13 AM
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Originally Posted by simms3_redux View Post
This is far far out East Bay in Contra Costa County - Concord (2nd or 3rd to last BART stop going East):

I went on a huge bike ride this past weekend and we started out at that BART station (Pleasant Hill Station). The project shown u/c in your aerial is now completed, and was the first thing I saw upon exiting the train station. It has ground-floor retail with some outdoor seating under newly-planted shade trees for Starbucks and probably some other spots. I assume it must have plenty of parking, but none is visually apparent.

Because it is mixed-use and adjacent to BART, but also because it is a block from the incredible and busy 40-mile north-south bike and pedestrian pathway, the Iron Horse Regional Trail, there is a lot of bike and pedestrian activity right there. It's about as good as we can possibly expect suburban infill to be.
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  #22  
Old Posted Jun 25, 2014, 3:34 AM
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Maybe some of it is that good, but what's shown has above-grade garages and substantial setbacks.
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  #23  
Old Posted Jun 25, 2014, 5:03 AM
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Maybe some of it is that good, but what's shown has above-grade garages and substantial setbacks.
I'm talking about that particular project. It's a step in the right direction, and about as good as one can reasonably expect for an area some 28 miles outside SF city limits via BART.
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  #24  
Old Posted Jun 25, 2014, 7:15 AM
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Originally Posted by simms3_redux View Post
Sure these cities are building up and building "infill" as in wrapped structured parking and multifamily in "infill" lots, but it's truly going to be a long time, maybe take a miracle if they result in a vibrant, urban city in the traditional sense. Parking ratios are still super duper high (1 spot per bedroom + visitor and then some) and while sidewalks are being built and some projects are "mixed-use" with retail below, it's still predominantly drive up.
I've stated this before countless times, and I know I will have to again.

As far as Atlanta is concerned, it will NEVER achieve the level of density you and several other density fetishists here have as your supposed 'benchmark' of acceptable urbanity. It simply isn't possible, but you already know this.

There are large swaths of the City that are zoned SFR that occupy large lots, are becoming increasingly pricey and will never go away. We are largely okay with this.

The sections of the City that can and should accommodate increased density are embracing it with open arms. The changes are astounding, but we will never approach levels that are acceptable to you or your peers. And I and hundreds of thousands of others ITP could care less.

In our truly urban nodes, there is plenty of pedestrian activity and liveliness - but you already know this, too.

San Francisco is the exception, not the rule.

Last edited by atlantaguy; Jun 25, 2014 at 7:37 AM.
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  #25  
Old Posted Jun 25, 2014, 2:13 PM
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Originally Posted by mhays View Post
Maybe some of it is that good, but what's shown has above-grade garages and substantial setbacks.
That's the "worst" we're building, mainly because it's so far out going East (this is not Inner Bay but rather in what is the area's freshest Greenfield space), but this is often the gold standard and considered excellent urban infill basically downtown adjacent in most of the country. That was the point I was making. Most of our infill is in the Inner Bay, where the bulk of population is, between SF and SJ and between Oakland and SJ. What gets built elsewhere in the Bay has limited subterranean parking, even in the suburbs. I don't think I even need to provide detail as to what gets built in SF, Oakland, or Berkeley, since it's on a different level.

My point was infill is going to be completely variable depending on metro. For instance, a 350 unit apartment complex with above grade parking and no street retail with its own ingress egress point of access due to lack of grid/curbs surrounded by cul de sacs and single family residential at 2,000-4,000 ppsm is considered infill in much of the country, and in some cities this environment extends to downtown. This is an improvement over that, and yet is at the bottom of the stack of what gets built around here, and like fflint said, 28 miles EAST into the desert.

Would the above be considered infill, or greenfield? Surrounding residential is probably more like 6,000-7,000 ppsm with no cul de sacs and a relative grid, sidewalks, built closer to curb, etc.

This goes along with that recent Walkability ranking. A city like Atlanta is just behind the Bay Area, supposedly, for # WalkUPs for population, and SF of office/retail in WalkUPs, but I think we all know that the two cities couldn't be more apart, and the metro areas as a whole couldn't be more apart. Metro Atlanta's equivalent to the above is Perimeter Center, which can't even effectively put office/retail right next to the 3 stations there (I know from experience working in Perimeter for a year), yet it's a WalkUP. The above was not considered a WalkUP, and yet most of suburban Bay Area is arguably more walkable than most of the City of Atlanta. It's just apples to oranges in terms of quality comparison, that's all.
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  #26  
Old Posted Jun 25, 2014, 3:01 PM
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Yes, that all makes sense.

As for "plenty of pedestrian activity and liveliness"....I've never seen anything in Atlanta (or seen pictures on SSP designed to show the most urbanity possible) that suggests really heavy urban crowds, like a major retail street.
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  #27  
Old Posted Jun 26, 2014, 12:42 AM
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Originally Posted by simms3_redux View Post
Metro Atlanta's equivalent to the above is Perimeter Center, which can't even effectively put office/retail right next to the 3 stations there (I know from experience working in Perimeter for a year), yet it's a WalkUP.
Pure BS. The Sandy Springs station is directly connected to the huge NorthPark complex by a pedestrian tunnel right into the station, and has been since the station was built.

Phase I of the new State Farm complex is a 20 story tower with direct platform access to the Dunwoody station.

The Medical Center station is directly across the street from two large hospitals. They only way they could be closer is if they were on top of the station.

Your agenda is showing again.
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  #28  
Old Posted Jun 26, 2014, 11:38 AM
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Here's some of our lifeless infill(lots of garage donuts)







Most of what you see beyond the foreground was built in the last 15 years



While the density is building, it will be a tough fight to ever get the kind of pedestrian friendly streets that you see in older cities. I think the citizens of the city get it more than the leadership or the developers. We are constantly having to battle some developer about sidewalks, setbacks, etc. The zoning is a mess and developers here take full advantage of it. Don't get me started on Sam's going in next to Cityplace. But there are strides being made. The Cityplace/West Village area in the first pic is much moer pedestrian friendly than other parts of town, and some promising parks like Main St Gardens and Klyde Warren have really changed pedestrian life in Dallas. And in addition to the light rail line, we have a couple of street car lines under construction and Victory park is being reconfigured to be more pedestrian. It will be decades before developers get it in Dallas, but as some recent battles and some great developments like the Uptown Whole Foods and Trader Joes show, I think the citizenry gets it. We are even fighting a new tollroad and rallying to tear down a freeway downtown. We aren't total urban dunces.

And, BTW, this has been a very cool summer for Dallas. Looks like the heat will be on as normal next week.
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  #29  
Old Posted Jun 26, 2014, 12:16 PM
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If you want to see where Atlanta's infill is occurring:

http://devmap.io/cities/atlanta/developments
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  #30  
Old Posted Jun 26, 2014, 1:19 PM
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Originally Posted by ATL_J View Post
If you want to see where Atlanta's infill is occurring:

http://devmap.io/cities/atlanta/developments
Atlanta and Houston have so much going on. I was actually blown away by Atlanta when it came to developments and I bet thats not all thats going down there; probably several more projects. Midtown will be a crane forest. Too many! And thats a good thing!!!

With that said, U.S. cities are really experiencing construction booms that look like they are game changers in terms of reinventing skylines and neighborhoods. San Francisco especially. Houston has over 7 billion alone under construction. NYC is approaching 40 billion and I know Seattle has a lot going for it as well.
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  #31  
Old Posted Jun 26, 2014, 3:39 PM
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That part of Dallas looks like it might become more lively soon.

It won't be because of townhouses and four-story wrapped garages. It'll be because of what look like five story woodframes at highrises that area at least (for example) 150 units per acre, and sometimes multiples of that. Crucially, it'll be when there are fewer gaps between density.

Vibrancy takes more than housing density though. Offices, hotels, destination shopping, and tourist attractions are all useful for filling out the whole day/week with people doing different types of things. The world is full of quiet neighborhoods with 40,000/sm residential densities. Apparently this area has a mix. And of course you need more than a mix...a culture of walking needs to exist, not just on Saturday morning but all day every day, by a lot of people.
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  #32  
Old Posted Jun 26, 2014, 3:45 PM
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Originally Posted by atlantaguy View Post
Pure BS. The Sandy Springs station is directly connected to the huge NorthPark complex by a pedestrian tunnel right into the station, and has been since the station was built.

Phase I of the new State Farm complex is a 20 story tower with direct platform access to the Dunwoody station.

The Medical Center station is directly across the street from two large hospitals. They only way they could be closer is if they were on top of the station.

Your agenda is showing again.
I worked in that complex and I don't have an agenda, just comparing two cities I have lived in and pointing out that standards for infill, WalkUPs, etc etc are quite different between the two, likely different between other cities as well. I did capture Google Map aerials of Perimeter Center. I know you're going to say that it's all changed so much (I know they added some multifamily wrapped around a garage next to Perimeter MARTA station and the State Farm tower is UC somewhere, but you have to be blind to not see the difference).

North Springs Station (one of 3 near Perimeter Center), pure Park N Ride.



Northpark Center Station (my stop for an internship a long time ago):



Perimeter Station (supposedly now attached to all of this stuff):



I think this is what the study in the other thread used as a WalkUP, because I don't see other options really since this is a lot of retail and there is a multifamily tower in one of the surface lots surrounding (this is not really walkable to any of the 3 Perimeter transit stations, though it's possible, it would be super unpleasant and I'm not sure there are sidewalks the whole way):



Aerial of the area:





I'm not trying to bash Atlanta, just open dialogue, and I guess unfortunately for you I lived there and so I can comment on it from a former resident's perspective? What's our standard for infill? Is it just to add density? Because if that's the case, then yes, Perimeter is ripe for that, Dallas style above (though not quite as good because Dallas has that semi-grid that allows for mixed-use in those pics). Or is it urban development/design that also increases density? Because I don't personally see how you retrofit a place like Perimeter into a walkable, urban, mixed-use destination. Sadly, it's metro Atlanta's largest office submarket in terms of space, has the #3 mall, lots of residents, and 3 train stops, yet it's an absolute cluster of poor planning. It's also pretty inner ring for the metro considering how far out everything goes - you can see Perimeter from downtown/midtown and certainly Buckhead, as they are all close in relative to the metro.
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  #33  
Old Posted Jun 26, 2014, 4:22 PM
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^^ Those aren't the absolute worst suburbia...but they're pretty bad suburbia, and not ideal for rail station areas.

Park-n-rides are a fine concept in the suburban context, and garages are much better than surface parking. No complaints about that. But are they urban-like districts? Of course not. Unless a lot has happened since then.

Unfortunately some of that is really hard to retrofit. Those office towers can't fix their setbacks easily.
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  #34  
Old Posted Jun 26, 2014, 4:23 PM
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I'm impressed. More of this please!
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  #35  
Old Posted Jun 26, 2014, 8:11 PM
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Was just in Dallas again last week for the week. I don't have any stats, just some observations. There are indeed lots of new multi-family developments going on in the core. But what I found most striking was this…

The weather while I was there was absolutely beautiful, quite cool for that time of year. BUT, there was hardly anyone out walking the sidewalks, even in the areas that appear to be ones that should be attractive for people to walk in. We drove around and walked around several parts of the city, and for all the growth, all the new high-rise buildings, all the new people moving into these areas, etc. this city, even the dense parts of the core with lots of population, is still essentially auto centric with hardly any pedestrians. You could go into stores and restaurants in the evening and they be packed with people, but go out on the sidewalk and hardly nada.

To me urban living isn't simply about tall buildings or lots of people living in an area, it's about a lifestyle. It's about the sense of community, lively energy and feel of walking down a bustling street . It's that interchange or "exchange" you get with yourself and others seeing all the interesting sights, great window displays, beautiful public art and architecture, the sounds of the city and smells of the different cafe's etc. Exploring new sights on foot with lots of people around is so much different than driving past sitting in a car in traffic and hardly seeing any other people while doing so.

I am learning that it is not about the "Distribution of infill or multi family developments." it's about the type of development. Whether auto centric or pedestrian friendly. And I am learning that parking garages, are not pedestrian friendly, whether they are hidden underground, or behind a "pedestrian friendly facade" of apartments and shops.
Sounds like you went to the urban conference. We in Dallas are all about the criticism right now. The desire is certainly there from the citizenry and I think from the leadership, but there is always the "Texas is business first" attitude that we all are having to fight against. But what you saw was a huge improvement from even 10 years ago. Hopefully we get there, but all criticism accepted.
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  #36  
Old Posted Jun 26, 2014, 9:39 PM
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  #37  
Old Posted Jun 27, 2014, 4:16 AM
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Originally Posted by Owlhorn View Post
Sounds like you went to the urban conference. We in Dallas are all about the criticism right now. The desire is certainly there from the citizenry and I think from the leadership, but there is always the "Texas is business first" attitude that we all are having to fight against. But what you saw was a huge improvement from even 10 years ago. Hopefully we get there, but all criticism accepted.
Actually was in Dallas for what we in the retail trade call "Market" at the Dallas Market Center. I have a store in the heart of downtown Tulsa called DECOPOLIS (the Deco City) https://www.facebook.com/decopolis so have become highly attuned to what can positively or negatively effect retail in an urban environment. Especially an urban environment that I hope becomes more pedestrian friendly.

I wan't more people walking past my shop to and from things. Not people parking in a parking garage right where they want to go then not walking past my shop or the other budding businesses on my street. (tad bit hypocritical I know since my shop is on the ground floor of an old 6 story parking garage lol) But I want any new construction on my street to be at least as pedestrian friendly to fill in those current gaps with stuff that will help my business and others truly prosper.

Tulsa is so much smaller than Dallas and is growing more slowly, But, was happy to see even this evening, a typical Thursday evening, in another area of downtown have busy sidewalks with lots of things going on. I am happily surprised that much of that had to do with a small park that was built in that area by a local billionaire. What's different about this park, aside from it's quality, is its "programing" that is also privately funded. There is always lots of activity at the park (free family yoga classes, movie nights, plays, concerts, farmers markets, etc.), the activity helps the shops and restaurants around it, all of that activity is spurring more development, etc. etc. All in all has turned out to be a very smart move by Mr Kaiser (the billionaire). This in an area that has a decent stock of pedestrian friendly development and new development (like several hotels and condo complexes with ground floor retail) already. Such that this area, though in a far smaller city than Dallas, was probably as busy or busier than anything in the heart of Dallas.

But we still have an agonizingly long way to go, in both cities. Fortunately a good number of the developers in at least this small part of town have "gotten" it with respect to pedestrian friendly development. Keeping fingers crossed. But that goes to my big frustration. I wish we didn't have to keep our fingers crossed. I wish we had zoning in place in certain areas to encourage and guide the pedestrian friendly development we want.
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  #38  
Old Posted Jun 27, 2014, 1:03 PM
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Tulsa, city proper (not metro), is averaging growth of about 2,000 people per year (lackluster I know) but downtown is seeing the addition of about 500 per year average. So that would mean that Downtown is capturing a quarter of our population growth, all multi-family housing.

I have a feeling that here soon those figures for downtown will really begin to ramp up as it becomes more established and some of the decent sized projects in the pipeline get underway and create more buzz and "security" that downtown is truly coming into its own again.
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  #39  
Old Posted Jun 27, 2014, 5:09 PM
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Impressions mostly but the following gives a good picture of where things are being built.

http://devmap.io/cities/houston/developments

On the subject of multifamily dwellings I can say with some certainty that most of them are being built within the loop or close to it. Single family housing though still pulls most development outside of central Houston. Especially if you include the suburban cities such as Spring, Katy and Sugar Land. There is one bright spot though and that's the current construction and proposals for dwelling in the downtown CBD. Over 2,000 units are suppose to be under construction in the next couple of years and hopefully that is just the start.

Dallas DART light runs not only through Dallas suburbs but Richardson, Plano, Rowlett, Garland + 5 other cities going through most cities "downtown". The most popular line, Red Line, basically has 10 - 20 story towers along the majority of it's route which can also be considered destinations. In comparison you have Greenspoint which is within the Houston city limits. There you have 16 million sq ft of office space and 10,000s of workers yet it is serviced by all of 3 bus lines. Just different types of regional priorities.
Looks like about 13,000 units U/C on that map, with about 3/4 of that in the loop.

With 14,700 MF starts in 2012 and 15,800 MF starts in 2013, I'd have expected a bit more. Not sure how long the average project takes to build, I'm guessing 2-3 years for the high-rises, 1 year for lowrise/midrise? So maybe 1.5 years on average, so you'd expect 20,000+ U/C?

So either Houston's not building as much as housing starts/permits would suggest, or there's stuff missing from the map. Smaller projects might not be included a lot of the time. Also I noticed that there's a lot of proposals listed for the core, but the ones further out are mostly U/C projects, so maybe whoever updates that website doesn't track suburban developments as much?

Still, about 9,500 units U/C in the loop, not including townhouses is a good bit. If Houston maintains the pace, that could be enough to add something like 100,000 people to the loop in the next decade. Plus 20,000 or so to Uptown.

It's good to see it's not just residential but a fair bit of retail, office and hotels. Looks like the major retail developments U/C are River Oaks, Regent Square, Azalea Court and Green Street.

Quite a lot of hotels U/C and proposed, especially downtown. I've been reading Jane Jacobs and she made a point about mixed use that surprisingly doesn't seem to have caught on much. It's not just about having mixed use so that things are closer together. It's also about mixed use to spread out customers for businesses across the day. She used 1960 Downtown Manhattan as an example where businesses were struggling because while they got a crush of customers at lunch break and 5pm, they got very few when the office workers were in their towers or left to go home. I think this is still a problem with many CBDs, from what people have said (I haven't been) this is a problem with Downtown Houston too.

Jacobs mentioned that for Downtown Manhattan, there were plans to add residents, but she didn't think they'd do much good, since they'd still be overwhelmed by office workers. Offices generate a very high density of workers, since a cubicle is much smaller than an apartment, so it's rather difficult for apartment buildings to get the residential population to come close (especially if mid rise like downtown Houston), plus modern offices have big floor plates which gives them an additional density advantage. Jacobs suggested building tourist attractions like theatres, museums and aquariums, which could bring people into downtown Manhattan throughout the day and in large quantities, as well as tourist oriented retail (retail that draws beyond just local residents).

I haven't seen her mention hotels, but I think they could certainly help and have many advantages over residential
-They're denser, often multiple people is a single hotel room, which tend to be smaller than most apartments
-They tend to attract relatively wealthy (middle class+) people, since travelling costs money
-Tourists spend a lot more while travelling than they would at home, eating out, shopping, tourist attractions, museums, etc
-Spending is spread throughout the day, and often even late into the night

That could give a good boost to the virtuous cycle where more tourists attracts more retail/attractions, which attract offices and residents (residents of other neighbourhoods and new residents to downtown), which attract each other, plus all that is good for transit which attracts all of the above.

From that link, the main downside is that suburban office development looks like it still outnumbers office development in the core.
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  #40  
Old Posted Jun 28, 2014, 11:40 PM
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She used 1960 Downtown Manhattan as an example where businesses were struggling because while they got a crush of customers at lunch break and 5pm, they got very few when the office workers were in their towers or left to go home. I think this is still a problem with many CBDs, from what people have said (I haven't been) this is a problem with Downtown Houston too.

Jacobs mentioned that for Downtown Manhattan, there were plans to add residents, but she didn't think they'd do much good, since they'd still be overwhelmed by office workers. Offices generate a very high density of workers, since a cubicle is much smaller than an apartment, so it's rather difficult for apartment buildings to get the residential population to come close (especially if mid rise like downtown Houston), plus modern offices have big floor plates which gives them an additional density advantage. Jacobs suggested building tourist attractions like theatres, museums and aquariums, which could bring people into downtown Manhattan throughout the day and in large quantities, as well as tourist oriented retail (retail that draws beyond just local residents).
Downtown Manhattan has seen a huge residential growth in recent decades, it's not as dead as it used to be. Still, I think a downtown is better relying on things that attract the entire region rather than just residents. (Now has 60,000 residents in a bit over a square mile, though that includes tower in the park Battery Park City and Tribeca) Big stores need a base much larger than a neighborhood residential population can ever be.
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