Regional identity

[Docere]

Protestant nativism and anti-Catholicism could be found all over English Canada in the 19th and early 20th centuries. Anglophone New Brunswick was every bit as much as "orange" as Ontario and Manitoba had strong orange support too (it was initially a bilingual province but soon became swarmed by Ontarians who insisted on English only).

[JManc]

Originally Posted by Crawford

So NYC is New England? Except for grad school, I've never lived in New England.

I'm not challenging the underlying argument but rather the geographical distinction. From where I stand, the NYC and Boston area are culturally closer than even the NYC and Philly areas. Someone growing up in Newton, MA and Dobbs Ferry, NY will have essentially the same environment.

I do think there's a legacy eastern seaboard distinction, but not sure the current conception of New England fully captures it. It's more something hugging the coast from Maine to the Chesapeake, more or less, not going inland much past Albany. It has local variations.

There's definitely a closer connection between New York (upstate and downstate) to New England compared the rest of the Mid Atlantic. Except for New Jersey for NYC obviously.

[Crawford]

Other American geographies with distinct identities - Appalachia, Dutch Michigan, Utah (more accurately Mormon West), Spaniard New Mexico.

[Crawford]

Originally Posted by Docere

Mid-Atlantic is a very vaguely defined term. The term doesn't seem to be used much in the NYC area, even though the Census Bureau says Mid-Atlantic = NY/NJ/PA.

Right. I just think the NE geographic distinction is weird from where I'm sitting, bc the NYC area doesn't really identify as Mid Atlantic either. And it's culturally closer to points north than points south. NY/NJ is much more Boston than Baltimore. So what is the tri-state area, then?

[iheartthed]

Originally Posted by JManc

There's definitely a closer connection between New York (upstate and downstate) to New England compared the rest of the Mid Atlantic. Except for New Jersey for NYC obviously.

Upstate definitely has more overlap with New England, but I'm a little surprised to hear that people think NYC tilts more to the north than to the south.

The New York professional class might have more experience with Boston due to the economy of Boston as well as the concentration of schools. But beyond that it's hard for me to agree that Boston has closer ties to New York than Philadelphia. The cities of New York and Philadelphia have such parallel histories, and are practically in the same metro.

[muertecaza]

Originally Posted by Crawford

Other American geographies with distinct identities - Appalachia, Dutch Michigan, Utah (more accurately Mormon West), Spaniard New Mexico.

The 'Mormon Belt' of Idaho, Utah and Arizona is definitely a regional identity. I find myself picking people out by sight and sound. This may just reflect my own experience, but I do feel like the Mormon influence in Arizona is being diluted; Mormons made up close to ~10% of the state when I was a kid, and it's closer to 5% now. But Phoenix's East Valley suburbs and the outlying communities definitely still have a strong identity.

I don't know if it's common enough to count, but I would say if I "identify" with anything, it's with Sonoran Desert communities--Imperial/Coachella Valleys, Yuma, Phoenix and Tucson. I'd add Rocky Point too. I haven't spent any time in Calexico/Mexicali or Hermosillo, but I know Phoenix has recently put a lot of effort into strengthening ties with Hermosillo. I prefer Sonoran Desert to broader "Southwest," as no one can even agree on what states/regions are part of the Southwest, and the only two states that are always included--Arizona and New Mexico--have almost nothing in common and little to no shared culture.

[Docere]

Originally Posted by Shawn

New England has about 15 million people; about 2/3 of that lives under two hours from Boston. New Hampshire's geographical population center is in Pembroke, just an hour north of Boston and under 40 miles from the MA/NH line. Maine's geographical population center is Chelsea, just outside Portland (also under 2 hours with decent traffic). About 50% of Maine lives within 50 miles of the Massachusetts border, not the New Hampshire border. Nowhere in Rhode Island sans Block Island is more than an hour and a half from the Massachusetts State House in Beacon Hill.

Burlington is the outlier in this regard.

This is very helpful. It's easy to think of urbanized southern New England and more rural northern New England as fundamentally different. But Boston is really the hub of the region.

Incidentally in the Canadian Maritimes, New England was sometimes referred to "the Boston states."

[Docere]

What does the Tri-State have in common with DMV that it doesn't have in common with New England?

[JManc]

Originally Posted by iheartthed

Upstate definitely has more overlap with New England, but I'm a little surprised to hear that people think NYC tilts more to the north than to the south.

The New York professional class might have more experience with Boston due to the economy of Boston as well as the concentration of schools. But beyond that it's hard for me to agree that Boston has closer ties to New York than Philadelphia. The cities of New York and Philadelphia have such parallel histories, and are practically in the same metro.

In the past, I would say there were a lot of parallels between NYC's working class and Philly's. Particularly with immigrant groups and Italians specifically. I think the two have diverged since then but the parallels with Boston especially on the higher end is more or less the same...except of you're wearing a Yankees hat within 100 miles of Fenway. Or yell "the Red Sox suck!" at a sports bar bar in Cranston, Rhode Island.

[edale]

I think Appalachia has, by far, the strongest regional identity in the US. Appalachia has distinct music and art, culinary traditions, and accents and vocabulary from the surrounding areas of the states it cuts through. It has a distinct and unique economic history, which is very much tied to the mountainous/hilly land it occupies. People self-identify as Appalachian, even after moving from it, which is why you see urban Appalachian communities in places like Ohio's 3Cs, Detroit, etc. Cincinnati even has an Urban Appalachian Community Coalition which works as an advocacy group and resource provider to Appalachians who've migrated to Cincy.

This is quite obviously a deeper connection and cultural bond than what exists in New England, which might have cultural similarities throughout, but would never identify as a quasi-ethnic group like Appalachians do. The South only seems monolithic to people who have never spent time there. There are many sub-regions of the south with major differences between them. Culturally, the low country of South Carolina is extremely different than somewhere like Nashville.

[3rd&Brown]

Originally Posted by JManc

There's definitely a closer connection between New York (upstate and downstate) to New England compared the rest of the Mid Atlantic. Except for New Jersey for NYC obviously.

WHUT?

NY is definitely its own thing, neither New England or the MidAtlantic, but it is culturally much more tied to the MidAtlantic than it is to New England. Fairfield County aside, which is a true exception to the rest of New England.

I mean for god's sake Boston is 4 hours from NYC on the friggin Acela. You can be in Philly, Baltimore, and DC faster. In some cases FAR faster.

[Buckeye Native 001]

It seems like the most
-common identity those of us in Arizona share is "where are you from, originally?" Native Arizonans exist but they feel like four leaf clovers. Hell, my username alone is indication I ain't from around here originally*.

But like muertecaza said, the Mormon identity feels somewhat diluted now compared to 25 years ago. Other than weather, that mightve been the biggest culture shock coming from a very German Catholic upbringing in Ohio.

*Aside from the handful of folks who think I'm a native of Buckeye, AZ which...no.

[TempleGuy1000]

Originally Posted by 3rd&Brown

WHUT?

NY is definitely its own thing, neither New England or the MidAtlantic, but it is culturally much more tied to the MidAtlantic than it is to New England. Fairfield County aside, which is a true exception to the rest of New England.

Yeah I agree. Granted, I grew up in between Philly and NYC, and my fiance grew up in Fairfield. But I had service electric cable growing up that had Comcast Philadelphia, the YES Network, and the MSG to watch all the regional teams. Along with two NBCs and two local Fox stations in case you wanted to watch the different local news. The regional rail networks are linked together. Six Flags, the Jersey Shore, Mister Softee, etc are shared cultural things. Many more people commute back and forth for work between philly and nyc than the opposite way.

A little dated but some perspective

https://nec-commission.com/app/uploa...rt_Website.pdf

[JManc]

Originally Posted by 3rd&Brown

WHUT?

NY is definitely its own thing, neither New England or the MidAtlantic, but it is culturally much more tied to the MidAtlantic than it is to New England. Fairfield County aside, which is a true exception to the rest of New England.

I mean for god's sake Boston is 4 hours from NYC on the friggin Acela. You can be in Philly, Baltimore, and DC faster. In some cases FAR faster.

New York isn't just NYC and neither is downstate.

[UrbanRevival]

Boston is literally twice as far from New York as Philadelphia is. There's a reason that it's considered the urban anchor of its own subregion.

New York, first and foremost, was historically a "Middle Colony" along with PA, NJ and DE. Yes, you'll find a very large concentration of folks in the professional class who were educated at New England's Ivies and summer in coastal New England.

But the vast majority of Metro NYCers are much more likely to orient themselves towards the south than to the north. Long-standing migration patterns affirm this.

[Shawn]

I've always gotten real Inland New England vibes from the Albany area, especially the towns east of the Hudson. My UMass roommate was from this area. Lake Placid too.

But I haven't been to these places in 20+ years.

[Obadno]

Originally Posted by iheartthed

Hmm... Virginia was the most influential state to the formation of the country and national culture, and it's not particularly close. It's no coincidence that the city of Washington sits on some random piece of land just a couple dozen miles from where the plantations for most of Virginia's elite slave-owning class were located.

Okay? Virginia planter culture was never dominant over New England colonies and was quite literally obliterated by 1865.

Dc 100 years ago was closer to a new Englander/wasp/yankee colony and nobody would say Nova is separate from the urban culture of the northeast today

Not sure why DC’s location would tell us anything about new England culture ? But even on that note it was an artificial city purposely removed from the urban centers in Philly ny and Boston when founded

[JManc]

Originally Posted by Shawn

I've always gotten real Inland New England vibes from the Albany area, especially the towns east of the Hudson. My UMass roommate was from this area. Lake Placid too.

But I haven't been to these places in 20+ years.

Even a bit further west in NY closer to the Utica area; stone walls, similar housing vernacular, socioeconomics, etc. Mass tends to have the triple deckers though.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Docere

This is very helpful. It's easy to think of urbanized southern New England and more rural northern New England as fundamentally different. But Boston is really the hub of the region.

Incidentally in the Canadian Maritimes, New England was sometimes referred to "the Boston states."

I am descended from a Maritime Acadian family where until the 1950s and 1960s the standard name in the community for any person from the US, regardless of where they were from, was "Bostonnais" (Bostonian).

[Crawford]

Originally Posted by UrbanRevival

New York, first and foremost, was historically a "Middle Colony" along with PA, NJ and DE.

Not really. If anything it's a transition zone. Long Island was English, not Dutch. Eastern LI was New England. There was no Dutch presence, ever, on Eastern LI. Towns on either side of LI Sound look essentially the same, and CT and RI claimed LI for a long period.

There were basically five New England colonies, and one of them, New Haven, included LI. The Dutch were only in New York County and Kings County. The English were as far west as Hempstead, bordering Queens County. LI didn't become NY, and not CT or RI, until a royal decree finalized current boundaries.

Originally Posted by UrbanRevival

But the vast majority of Metro NYCers are much more likely to orient themselves towards the south than to the north. Long-standing migration patterns affirm this.

I don't think there's any basis to this assertion. There isn't any obvious northern or southern orientation to local growth or migration.