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  #41  
Old Posted Mar 28, 2015, 4:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Hamilton View Post
I'm sorry, but I have to disagree with this. I'm a New Yorker and have took a trip to Baltimore recently. It was a sublimely beautiful city, built for a million inhabitants but housing only 620,000 today. As of a couple of years ago, it was still bleeding population even a couple of years ago. The census claims that it may have finally reached zero net growth last year, but only due to births and immigration. In general, people are still fleeing the city in droves, despite a few people who fall in love with the row houses. The city has even announced plans to tear down entire blocks of row houses, sadly.
Baltimore is a beautiful city with great bones. It definitely needs more people and more activity though. People need to want to come to the city for a variety of reasons and not flee it every chance they get, which was the impression I got when I was there.

I'd never call it a shithole, just a place that has great potential and needs to find ways to become attractive again.
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  #42  
Old Posted Mar 28, 2015, 4:06 PM
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Originally Posted by goat314 View Post
He also said crime and poverty had no relation, so I'm not surprised he made this statement. Seems like many people on this forum make statements about things they know very little about....smh.
Unfortunately we have a couple of people on here who don't actually love cities, but are more interested in arguing about every possible subject and think their opinions are more valid than those of others, even when it's clear they are talking from no or very limited experience and knowledge most of the time... They have come to dominate discourse on this forum...
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  #43  
Old Posted Mar 28, 2015, 4:21 PM
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Originally Posted by SHiRO View Post
Unfortunately we have a couple of people on here who don't actually love cities, but are more interested in arguing about every possible subject and think their opinions are more valid than those of others, even when it's clear they are talking from no or very limited experience and knowledge most of the time... They have come to dominate discourse on this forum...
So in other words, you're asserting that crime in the U.S. is in fact closely correlated with poverty.

Then what is your explanation for the comparatively low crime in the poorest U.S. jurisdictions? What is your explanation for the biggest increase in crime in U.S. history concurrent with the biggest decrease in poverty? Detroit was one of the wealthiest cities in the country, had almost zero unemployment, had the highest homeownership rate in the countyr, and was economically booming back when crime exploded in the postwar era.

If poverty is closely correlated with crime, then crime in the U.S. should have been soaring in recent years, and should have been plummeting during the postwar era.
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  #44  
Old Posted Mar 28, 2015, 4:24 PM
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Originally Posted by SHiRO View Post
More Crawford (and increasingly SSP) wisdom. It's pretty clear you have not been to any of these cities and don't even bother to visit the photo threads on this very forum on the rare occasion cities such as the ones mentioned do make an appearance...
As usual, you didn't bother reading threads before making asinine comments.

I never wrote that any of these areas are "bland shitholes". In fact I never wrote anything bad about any city in Europe. All I wrote was that Americans do not get a representative picture of Europe from their visits, because places geared to tourism aren't representative of Europe. Venetians don't live like typical Europeans, that's all. It doesn't mean Venice is "better" than typical Europe (in fact I would much rather live in an Essen than a Venice), it's just that Venice is an outlier.

It's no different from Europeans visiting the U.S. and going to NYC, or Florida, or LA. They aren't getting a representative feel of typical U.S. They aren't going to Dallas or Kansas City.
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  #45  
Old Posted Mar 28, 2015, 5:06 PM
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Originally Posted by aquablue View Post
Even the less pretty cities like Shefield, Nottingham, Lille, Dortmund, etc. have more street vitality and urban lifestyle than places like St. Louis, Balitmore, Tampa, and even larger cities like LA (where few people walk). And they have prettier centers too. What does that say for the poorly designed average US city? I'd say they even have more street vitality than DC and Boston. Places like Dublin certainly do - I have extensive experience with that city and have compared it to DC - and that isn't a beautiful city by european standards by any stretch of the imagination. However, it would be up there with the most beautiful in the USA. Europeans are lucky that history of dense cities and nice streets has helped shape their interesting socially connected urban lifestyle. Even the bombed out cities from WWII are much more vibrant even with drab architecture. Sprawl isn't a big factor, although some cities like London, Milan, etc, certainly appear to sprawl out and could be far denser. However, that is compensated by their large populations.

Essen and Leeds have far more vibrant and fun downtowns than Kansas City and Memphis. Visit and you'll see what I mean.
I think this is a bit inaccurate. Memphis not fun and vibrant, what? Compared to Leeds of all places? c'mon...



http://www.city-data.com/forum/city-...s-river-9.html

Also Dublin is absolutely one of the most beautiful cities in Europe (Georgian architecture, etc). LA meanwhile is fantastically vibrant, it's just that the vibrancy is spread out.
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  #46  
Old Posted Mar 28, 2015, 5:29 PM
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Originally Posted by dc_denizen View Post
I think this is a bit inaccurate. Memphis not fun and vibrant, what? Compared to Leeds of all places? c'mon...



http://www.city-data.com/forum/city-...s-river-9.html

Also Dublin is absolutely one of the most beautiful cities in Europe (Georgian architecture, etc). LA meanwhile is fantastically vibrant, it's just that the vibrancy is spread out.
You're talking about one street and trust me, it's not that active all of the time. European cities are much different in that their cities centers are where people go to shop, socialise, etc.
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  #47  
Old Posted Mar 28, 2015, 6:25 PM
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^^ it's the same in the US (people going downtown to socialize, etc), except in certain cities riven by economic problems, bad planning, and racial strife.
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  #48  
Old Posted Mar 28, 2015, 6:38 PM
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American Downtowns are for a large part of them not anymore a place of shopping, this is why they lack of activity and vibrancy.
People have no reason to go there except for work.

Australian cities are very suburban and have a lot of sprawl, yet the downtowns of Australian cities remain a place of shopping.
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  #49  
Old Posted Mar 28, 2015, 6:41 PM
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Originally Posted by Minato Ku View Post
American Downtowns are for a large part of them not anymore a place of shopping, this is why they lack of activity and vibrancy.
People have no reason to go there except for work.

Australian cities are very suburban and have a lot of sprawl, yet the downtown of Australian cities remain a place of shopping.
Exactly. This is the main difference. It's retail.

I don't now any major European city that is not the main shopping hub of the metro area. They might exist, but I don't know any. So a place like Essen might not be as beautiful as a Venice, but it will always have the retail vibrancy.

In contrast, how many U.S. metros have their retail hub in the downtown? I don't mean some retail, I mean the best and most retail is downtown?

NYC, SF, Chicago, probably Boston, and I think that's it. Philly and Seattle and DC have lots of downtown retail, but are not the main/dominant regional centers for retail. Portland, Miami, San Diego, Salt Lake have some retail too. Cities like Detroit or Cleveland or KC or Houston have almost none.
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  #50  
Old Posted Mar 28, 2015, 6:56 PM
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It depends which kind of retail, when I see the shops in downtown DC, I don't think that outside the workers, the few residents of the area and tourists, many people come here to shop.
It reminds me City of London. Nobody goes in the City, unless they work here because the shops only cater to workers and do not attract other people from outside the district.

As the result despite a higher density, the City is less vibrant than the West End.

Last edited by Minato Ku; Mar 28, 2015 at 7:46 PM.
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  #51  
Old Posted Mar 28, 2015, 8:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Crawford View Post
So in other words, you're asserting that crime in the U.S. is in fact closely correlated with poverty.

Then what is your explanation for the comparatively low crime in the poorest U.S. jurisdictions? What is your explanation for the biggest increase in crime in U.S. history concurrent with the biggest decrease in poverty? Detroit was one of the wealthiest cities in the country, had almost zero unemployment, had the highest homeownership rate in the countyr, and was economically booming back when crime exploded in the postwar era.

If poverty is closely correlated with crime, then crime in the U.S. should have been soaring in recent years, and should have been plummeting during the postwar era.
I made absolutely no comment about any of this whatsoever...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Crawford View Post
As usual, you didn't bother reading threads before making asinine comments.

I never wrote that any of these areas are "bland shitholes". In fact I never wrote anything bad about any city in Europe. All I wrote was that Americans do not get a representative picture of Europe from their visits, because places geared to tourism aren't representative of Europe. Venetians don't live like typical Europeans, that's all. It doesn't mean Venice is "better" than typical Europe (in fact I would much rather live in an Essen than a Venice), it's just that Venice is an outlier.

It's no different from Europeans visiting the U.S. and going to NYC, or Florida, or LA. They aren't getting a representative feel of typical U.S. They aren't going to Dallas or Kansas City.
Off course I read the thread, I read all threads I post in and most I don't. Often multiple times... It's part of my job here...

Crawford, I couldn't give two fucks about whether or not you write something bad about European cities, it's the fact that you continually and relentlessly write things that are simply not true about European cities is what is bothering me (and hopefully others). Things you for starters can't even be knowledgeable about and yet you present yourself as some kind of expert about around here.

There's nothing wrong with Lille, Essen or Bradford. All are fine cities including narrow streets, good (and bad) architecture and plenty of street vitality. Lille even has a very attractive center and is a daytrip destination (with HSR connection) throughout the region (something you wouldn't know).

Point is that even these smaller and lesser known European cities are attractive and urban places. I'd even go a step further and claim that most even smaller and lesser known European cities (in the <200,000 or even <100,000 range) are plenty attractive and urban and good places to live.

Please stop spreading misinformation and stop degenerating this forum further.

Last edited by SHiRO; Mar 28, 2015 at 8:51 PM.
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  #52  
Old Posted Mar 28, 2015, 8:33 PM
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Originally Posted by dc_denizen View Post
I think this is a bit inaccurate. Memphis not fun and vibrant, what? Compared to Leeds of all places? c'mon...
Another comment that is a fine example of the level of discourse on this forum about places outside (and many in) North America.

I'm sure Memphis is plenty of fun and vibrant for the true city lover and I'm sure it gets a worse rep than is deserved. But please stop dragging in other cities you can't possibly be knowledgeable about. There's nothing wrong with Leeds either, in fact Leeds is a good example of a British city that made a great transition to the post industrial and is a busteling regional center. Leeds is what struggling US rustbelt cities should aspire to be...

Last edited by SHiRO; Mar 28, 2015 at 8:49 PM.
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  #53  
Old Posted Mar 28, 2015, 8:47 PM
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Exactly. This is the main difference. It's retail.
It's not just retail, it's everything. Nightlife, schools, public services, downtown residents, restaurants, markets, festivals, ACTIVITY.

When I was in Baltimore on Labor Day, the city was deserted. Even the Inner Harbor with all its restaurants and the aquarium was less crowded than the city center of my own town (pop 210,000) on a normal Wednesday.

On a holiday like that, people should be flocking to the city and there should be all sorts of (planned) activities besides shopping in malls. People should not instead be fleeing the city even more.
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  #54  
Old Posted Mar 28, 2015, 8:56 PM
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But we were debating 'fun'. Does Leeds or Bradford have this:

Memphis: where to find the blues

But yes, I'm sure Geneva is much more fun w/ more live music than Nashville, etc.
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  #55  
Old Posted Mar 28, 2015, 9:08 PM
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Geneva has plenty of cultural offerings that 99% of the forumers here are not privy to.

A blues lover would probably love to go to Memphis and a opera or high art lover would rather opt for Geneva. A true city lover would be excited to visit either city.


And yes Leeds has plenty of fun and a thriving music scene. It's also twice the size of Memphis so maybe Pittsburgh would be a better comparison.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Music_in_Leeds

Last edited by SHiRO; Mar 28, 2015 at 9:21 PM.
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  #56  
Old Posted Mar 28, 2015, 9:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Crawford View Post
Poverty isn't closely correlated with crime in the U.S. The biggest increases in crime were concurrent with the biggest drops in poverty in U.S. history (during the 1960's). The recent large drops in crime have been concurrent with stable or increasing poverty.

And most of the poorest parts of the U.S. don't have particularly high crime. The poorest parts are generally rural and/or along the Mexican border. Places like El Paso are extremely safe, with very low murder and violent crime rates.
unpopular opinion saturday.....it all starts at home. mexicans are catholics and have much lower divorce rates and instances of single parent households. kids raised by two parents are less likely to offenders. poor black families have a higher tendency to be run by a single female, taking the father out of the equation. thats the problem. no dad to help with the nuts and bolts type stuff. endemic cycles of poverty are hard to break, but nearly impossible without two parents at home....
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  #57  
Old Posted Mar 28, 2015, 11:13 PM
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Originally Posted by SHiRO View Post
It's not just retail, it's everything. Nightlife, schools, public services, downtown residents, restaurants, markets, festivals, ACTIVITY.

When I was in Baltimore on Labor Day, the city was deserted. Even the Inner Harbor with all its restaurants and the aquarium was less crowded than the city center of my own town (pop 210,000) on a normal Wednesday.

On a holiday like that, people should be flocking to the city and there should be all sorts of (planned) activities besides shopping in malls. People should not instead be fleeing the city even more.
Labor Day, the first Monday in September, is wholly unrepresentative of an ordinary day in any US city. It cannot be used as representative of what any US city is normally like.

Americans uniformly take advantage of rare three-day national holidays like Labor Day to get out of town, and unlike cold-weather holidays like Christmas (which is very much an 'urban' oriented holiday in many urban centers), Labor Day is widely held as the last gasp of "Summer," with a very strong emphasis on being in the great outdoors--the vacation house, the mountains, the beaches, etc.

But then, you must have known all that, because otherwise you surely wouldn't have done exactly the thing you most denounce in others--posting about things you don't understand.
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  #58  
Old Posted Mar 28, 2015, 11:34 PM
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Fells point would have been a better place to visit.



link

Or Federal Hill, or a dozen other very active neighborhoods besides the core of downtown like Mt Vernon or Canton.


The inner harbor itself has a lamentable 1980s-urban renewal character, although its been a while since I've visited Baltimore so maybe things have been changing. It would be huge to move the main retail drag upmarket (Eutaw?)
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  #59  
Old Posted Mar 29, 2015, 12:02 AM
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Originally Posted by fflint View Post
Labor Day, the first Monday in September, is wholly unrepresentative of an ordinary day in any US city. It cannot be used as representative of what any US city is normally like.

Americans uniformly take advantage of rare three-day national holidays like Labor Day to get out of town, and unlike cold-weather holidays like Christmas (which is very much an 'urban' oriented holiday in many urban centers), Labor Day is widely held as the last gasp of "Summer," with a very strong emphasis on being in the great outdoors--the vacation house, the mountains, the beaches, etc.

But then, you must have known all that, because otherwise you surely wouldn't have done exactly the thing you most denounce in others--posting about things you don't understand.
Very predictable response...

Off course it is bullshit that everyone suddenly leaves town because of three days off. But that was kind of the point of my post in the first place wasn't it? People NOT leaving town every chance they get, because there are activities IN town, especially during holidays!

And if I didn't know about Labor Day before (I did), don't you think I would know about what it entails after that, through conversations and reading? No, Labor Day was in fact not the only day I spend in the US and Baltimore is not the only US city I've been to. What I wrote is generally true for all my experiences (except New York) and a good example that applies to many US cities.

I really liked Baltimore. Gorgeous buildings and houses that would be in high demand anywhere in Europe.

This was kind of post apocalyptic though, even on Labor Day... And not the only experience of that sort.

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  #60  
Old Posted Mar 29, 2015, 12:50 AM
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As a general rule, US cities are just too different to compare against European cities. Too much difference in age, land constraints, etc.

Austrian and Canadian cities are much better cities to benchmark against. Obviously, Aus/Can cities tend to do much better on on a per capita basis. They are nowhere near as urban as European cities, but generally have livelier city centers and do a better job of controlling urban sprawl than US cities.

My guess is that higher urban crime rates (regardless of the complicated causes) are major driver in why the middle class gave up on cities the way they did in the US. Generally, the norther tier cities with lower crime rates (Portland, Minneapolis, Seattle, Boston, Denver, etc) have done a better job of maintaining their city cores.

The hyper-local nature of US politics also seem to play a role in encouraging sprawl as each little town does its own thing and regional planing is relativity minimal. Aus and Can cities seem to have done a better job with coordinating regional growth.
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