What would an average American suburbanite think upon seeing a European-style suburb?

[FREKI]

Originally Posted by pdxtex

are european suburbs really all that different. sure they might be dense but many are still very autocentric.

Terrain differs and income differs, but the basic idea of a house within proximity to city and nature is one that is found everywhere in the world..

So in the end of the day suburbs may look different, figures may vary just as design and urban style may vary, but where suburbs can exist they do exist and where there is land for detached houses they are detached, where there is not other solutions are used - the basic idea remains the same..


I live on a flat island with lots of available land hence lots of sprawl and a pop desity lower than LA.. Stockholm has nature caused limitations hence the alternative style that has been covered and so does many cities in Spain and Italy and so on.. the same goes for the US, look at San Francisco's density vs a flat area like Houston..


So no - suburbs are not really that different..

[dc_denizen]

household size, lot acreage etc, is less of a differentiator than road design, bikeability, walkability, etc. American-style 90 degree grids are a rarity in Europe. European suburbs are in fact kind of sprawly (leapfroggy, green space in between etc), but they make up for it with small apartments, generally smaller lot sizes, and more transit options.

[Minato Ku]

This is the small city where I was born,
Bourges in Central France.
City proper: 66,666
Urban area: 82,944
Metro area: 139,968









PS: I have deleted the last posts which does not contribute to the subject of this thread.

[miketoronto]

Originally Posted by mrnyc

thats what stands out the most to me -- the land use laws -- no gradually sprawly crap scattered everywhere and anywhere like in america. its more orderly on the edges. city then boom farmland right next to it.

In general, I agree with that comment. However, I have to say, when Europe does it wrong, it can be vastly worse than North American suburbia.

When I think of the shopping malls I saw in Italy, which were built in the middle of farm fields, km's away from urban development, and basically requiring a car. Much worse than the suburban malls you see in Canadian cities, centered around a bus or rail station, with high-rise housing across the street.

Europe does many things right. But when they do it wrong, it really does beg the questions "did you not see the wrongs North America made, and why are you repeating them 50 years after we know it is the wrong way to build".

[miketoronto]

Originally Posted by FREKI

So no - suburbs are not really that different..

European suburbia is still different. If you look at the behavior of residents. No matter how much you say a European suburb is low density, the residents still bike, walk, and take transit to a much higher degree than in North America, save for a few cities like Toronto, where our suburbs were built to more European standards, at one point.

Just because a place has single family houses, does not mean it is all the same. There are ways to design the built form to make alternative transport more popular.

I was actually just talking to someone about this yesterday, about the difference in the rural mindset in North America and Europe. Rural hamlets in Europe have vastly higher transit, bike, and walking rates than North American rural areas.
So, one can say "ohh it is all rural, so it is the same". But it is not. There are cultural, development, and even just government willingness to provide viable services. This all works to create different lifestyles.

I still remember seeing this show on TV, where they were in this small town in the Netherlands. And almost all the university students biked 45 minutes to the nearest university to go to school. In North America, they would be driving.

[FREKI]

^people will use the options they have - and we can quickly agree that North America in many cases doesn't have many PT or biking options for it's suburban citizens - but I'm not sure that it would surprise a person from a North American suburb - I think the surprise would be the other way around as one has to be used to something to find it missing

[miketoronto]

Originally Posted by FREKI

^people will use the options they have - and we can quickly agree that North America in many cases doesn't have many PT or biking options for it's suburban citizens - but I'm not sure that it would surprise a person from a North American suburb - I think the surprise would be the other way around as one has to be used to something to find it missing

Still. European suburbia tends more towards the old streetcar style suburbia, that is considered inner city high density living in North America.
It is not the sprawl like you see here. I remember when someone form Paris at a planning event here in Toronto went on about suburban sprawl in Paris. She posted a photo of a neighborhood that looked like inner city Toronto. But to Europeans that is sprawl, even though it was a walkable neighborhood with tightly packed houses.

[Minato Ku]

Paris is particular case with rather good suburban transit (the majority of trip are still made by car) but in most other cities in France, car absolutly rules outside the small city center.
When I was living in Bourges, I can in my hand the number of time I have taken public transportation and my home was not in a suburban area.