Canadian province/ U.S. state analogues

[hipster duck]

Originally Posted by thewave46

For all the complaints of the parochial attitude held by our neighbours, Canadians (present company excluded) seem far more ignorant about themselves and the world at large. No, visiting Cancun does not make one Peter Ustinov, even if it does require you to have a passport. Nor does Las Vegas represent America in all its facets.

Yeah, but you're thinking about the average Joe on the street, and I'm referring to things I've read in American publications written by journalists.

One difference between Canadians and Americans is that Canadians who don't know anything about a subject tend to keep their mouth shut. It's more in our national character to be reticent and withdrawn.

Now, I'll grant you that there is the smug variety of Canadian that tends to rub our country's supposed achievements in Americans' faces (though rarely in the faces of people from other countries), and simultaneously overlooks or downplays this country's many problems, but these people also are usually armchair observers far from the levers of power.

[someone123]

I think this academic vs. state comparison idea captures the weirdness of the American perspective pretty well. Maybe it is caused primarily by the fact that the US is so large and such a complete world unto itself that true engagement with other cultures isn't part of their natural mode of thinking. Americans also see themselves as hosting the world's cultures which may give them a false sense of familiarity (the US has all the cultures of the world in the same was Ontario is a mix of California and the East Coast ).

I wonder if China is the same way internally. The British Empire was probably like this at one time and there's still a hangover. In Russia there's a big hangover with a massive level of cluelessness about other countries yet not all that much going on domestically.

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by casper

British Columbia, Washington State and Oregon historically were the same colony. There were disputes between the Americans and British over who controlled the territory. That was finally settled when the Oregon Treaty of 1846 was signed. The British called the area Columbia Territory and the Americans called the area Oregon Country.

Growing up in BC I was taught that the British/Canada gave up what today is called Oregon and Washington state to satisfy the unreasonable demands of the Americans.

Certain American kids are taught that the US made a major concession of giving up British Columbia.

There was even a war over part of the territory. The Pig War of 1859.

Back to modern days there are strong ties between these two states and BC.

Here's a great summary, and the origin of "54-40 or Fight!"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oregon_boundary_dispute

Settling at 49 feels like a loss in that context.

[WhipperSnapper]

I tend to agree. It's representative of a Trump like character being able to maintain power this long portraying the populist pulling on Canadian heart strings opposed to the Super Power bullying witnessed south of the border. His many transgressions opposed to his teary addresses barely register among Canadians. Another example is intelligence and black operations. The US is far more honest to their confidential operation as the public dictates it. We just don't want to know these things about ourselves so they remain entirely hidden. Locating a country on a paper map or foreign table etiquette feels superficial. Mocking Americans over these superficialities is really all we have.

The average Torontonian certainly has a higher impression on their environmental footprint in the context of an American. I was in deep red country last year. Maga hat wearing Americans were refilling their soap and detergent bottles at the grocery store. No one was buying plastic bags.

[thewave46]

Originally Posted by hipster duck

Yeah, but you're thinking about the average Joe on the street, and I'm referring to things I've read in American publications written by journalists.

Those publications are aimed to the general American public, so there has to be a linkage to home otherwise the article is going to be a dead duck.

A commentary on the SPD's recent success over the CDU/CSU in the 2021 German election unto itself won't provide a lot of context. Finding parallels (even if they are pretty tenuous) with contemporary America makes the article relevant.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by WhipperSnapper

I tend to agree. It's representative of a Trump like character being able to maintain power this long portraying the populist pulling on Canadian heart strings opposed to the Super Power bullying witnessed south of the border. His many transgressions opposed to his teary addresses barely register among Canadians. Another example is intelligence and black operations. The US is far more honest to their confidential operation as the public dictates it. We just don't want to know these things about ourselves so they remain entirely hidden. Locating a country on a paper map or foreign table etiquette feels superficial. Mocking Americans over these superficialities is really all we have.

The average Torontonian certainly has a higher impression on their environmental footprint in the context of an American. I was in deep red country last year. Maga hat wearing Americans were refilling their soap and detergent bottles at the grocery store. No one was buying plastic bags.

I hate myself for liking this post. Time to go take a shower I guess.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by thewave46

At least the Americans understand their own country and where it ends.
.

Yup. I've made this observation many times to Canadians who, for example, complained that America's Most Wanted never talked about Canadian cases.

I mean, Toronto's bigger than every US city except NYC, LA and maybe Chicago, so why the fuck do they talk about Nashville or Providence, and not us?.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by thewave46

For all the complaints of the parochial attitude held by our neighbours, Canadians (present company excluded) seem far more ignorant about themselves and the world at large. No, visiting Cancun does not make one Peter Ustinov, even if it does require you to have a passport. Nor does Las Vegas represent America in all its facets.

Definitely agree with the first point, but not sure about the second.

It's not Peter Ustinov-level I'd agree and I do think Canadians tend to overestimate their worldliness (personal and collective) but I've always found that smaller countries are often more world-wise across a larger share of the population than bigger ones.

I think it's often due to fewer degrees of separation between the average person and people like ambassadors, foreign service officers, or basically anyone who has a governmental or paragovernmental or civil society role that involves dealings with other countries.

To give just one very superficial example: Canada has around 200 ambassadors (or high commissioners) for 38 million people.

Iceland has around 200 ambassadors for about 377,000 people.

The US has about 200 ambassadors for 330 million people.

I also find that Canada has more of the Backyard Bob news geek or keener type people who are at least up on the latest big international stories and will bring them up at gatherings, even if they can only speak to them superficially.

These Backyard Bobs probably exist as an indirect reaction to self-awareness of Canada's role as a very minor player in the global scheme of things.

[thewave46]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Definitely agree with the first point, but not sure about the second.

It's not Peter Ustinov-level I'd agree and I do think Canadians tend to overestimate their worldliness (personal and collective) but I've always found that smaller countries are often more world-wise across a larger share of the population than bigger ones.

I think it's often due to fewer degrees of separation between the average person and people like ambassadors, foreign service officers, or basically anyone who has a governmental or paragovernmental or civil society role that involves dealings with other countries.

To give just one very superficial example: Canada has around 200 ambassadors (or high commissioners) for 38 million people.

Iceland has around 200 ambassadors for about 377,000 people.

The US has about 200 ambassadors for 330 million people.

I also find that Canada has more of the Backyard Bob news geek or keener type people who are at least up on the latest big international stories and will bring them up at gatherings, even if they can only speak to them superficially.

These Backyard Bobs probably exist as an indirect reaction to self-awareness of Canada's role as a very minor player in the global scheme of things.

I'd wager we are still far below peer countries of our population.

Some of it is geographical - getting anywhere outside our cultural comfort zone is just more effort here.

Some of it is cultural - so much of our cultural headspace is dedicated to gawking at America without realizing that gawking at someone else doesn't actually define one's culture, nor really expand our horizons beyond.

Maybe in larger cities what you say is true. Especially those larger centres with international connections. But the more rural parts of this country? Oh vey, there are some special types. Hicks who know they're hicks? I can work with that. Hicks who sneer condescendingly from an imagined perch of superiority? Nausea-inducing.

[someone123]

I always thought that the Maritimes were a lot like the old US southeast. Obviously they're not all that similar to each other but they had a similar role within each country:

- They were both original "cradles" of settlement separate from the larger areas that got absorbed, not areas that grew through frontier expansion. In an earlier era they would have been separate countries due to geography (Appalachian empty quarter in NB/ME).
- They were border zones in the age of sail (England vs. France, England vs. Spain) and have brutal histories compared to most of North America.
- They were successful early on but were devastated in the late industrial revolution period due to a mix of politics and economics. Halifax and Saint John are a lot like New Orleans or Charleston, although I would argue the Maritimes have never capitalized on their history in the same way.
- They're rebounding somewhat today as relatively nice/affordable places that offer an alternative to expensive cities.
- In both cases the mainstream of the countries they're in don't really understand the regional culture or history and the dominant "take" comes from the outside and is often not charitable.

[Canasian]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

Gee, thanks..........

Some provinces have clear US analogues, other do not.

The Maritime analogues are most definitely in New England.
- Nova Scotia = Massachusetts
- New Brunswick = Maine

- Prince Edward Island is an outlier here though. I would probably choose Delaware for PEI (same size and shape, nice rural landscape).

- Newfoundland is Canada's Alaska as far as I'm concerned (remoteness, ruggedness, climate).

- Quebec is New York. Montreal is a good analogue for NYC in terms of character and cosmopolitan status. St. Lawrence = Hudson River. Townships = Finger Lake district. Laurentians = Adirondacks.

- Ontario is a dogs breakfast just because of it's size and diversity. A good analogue would be Illinois, but with touches of Michigan and the midwest states too.

- Manitoba = Minnesota
- Saskatchewan = North Dakota
- Alberta = Montana, but with hints of Colorado and Texas

- British Columbia = Washington, but with strong overtones of California.

The northtern territories have no real US analogue.

I would have to agree Monctonroad. I also though Montreal is closer to NYC as there are a lot of apartment living arraignments and the two rives, urban islands (Montreal, Laval, Manhattan, Queens and Brooklyn). I live in PEI and yeah, I don't know if I can compare a "state" to PEI. Your Maritime analogies are spot on. NS is more like MA and ME and NB are like cousins, in a a good way. Even though both have oil, I think AB is more like MT- both northern, western, cowboys, but Calgary and Edmonton have no counterpart in MT. Billings and Calgary don't even compare. SK is more like ND and MN= MB. Manitoba has a lot more treed areas than any other Prairie province I think.

Good comparison!

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by thewave46

I'd wager we are still far below peer countries of our population.


Some of it is geographical - getting anywhere outside our cultural comfort zone is just more effort here.

Some of it is cultural - so much of our cultural headspace is dedicated to gawking at America without realizing that gawking at someone else doesn't actually define one's culture, nor really expand our horizons beyond.

Maybe in larger cities what you say is true. Especially those larger centres with international connections. But the more rural parts of this country? Oh vey, there are some special types. Hicks who know they're hicks? I can work with that. Hicks who sneer condescendingly from an imagined perch of superiority? Nausea-inducing.

I have to admit I do think about these angles from time to time. So not totally in disagreement.

Ultimately when it comes to this we're probably more a step or two removed from how the Americans are, as opposed to being just shy of how the Swiss are.

As for peer countries (ie western reasonably developed ones with similar populations), there aren't many we can effectively be compared to.

If we compared social class to social class, obviously we're not as worldly and sophisticated as Spain.

I think we're more open-minded in general than Poland but not necessarily more sophisticated and cultured.

Argentina is way poorer than Canada but spending time with upper middle and upper class people there can lead to some surprising realizations for a Canadian.

Canadians are more humble and less cocksure about their identity than Australians, which I think tends to lead us to have a bit more openness and interest in the wider world. The impression that Canada is "small" (when it actually isn't in any way) due to the behemoth next door, plus the presence of a large irredentist foreign-ish province in the middle of the country, probably contributes as well to the Canadian-style humility that Australians have much less of.

As for rural vs urban Canadians, perhaps this is skewed by my personal experience but about 80% of my extended family members (aunts, uncles, cousins, etc.) are rural Canadians who live in small places some distance from major cities, and on both sides of my family (mom and dad from geographically disparate regions) there is a lot of interest in current events in the wider world. Even if few are true experts on kimchi, Kurosawa and Kant.

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Even if few are true experts on kimchi, Kurosawa and Kant.

Personally I appreciate kimchi's philosophy.

Kant on the other hand is an Aryan pain in the ass.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

Personally I appreciate kimchi's philosophy.

But his breath is absolutely horrible!

[VANRIDERFAN]

Originally Posted by Canasian

I would have to agree Monctonroad. I also though Montreal is closer to NYC as there are a lot of apartment living arraignments and the two rives, urban islands (Montreal, Laval, Manhattan, Queens and Brooklyn). I live in PEI and yeah, I don't know if I can compare a "state" to PEI. Your Maritime analogies are spot on. NS is more like MA and ME and NB are like cousins, in a a good way. Even though both have oil, I think AB is more like MT- both northern, western, cowboys, but Calgary and Edmonton have no counterpart in MT. Billings and Calgary don't even compare. SK is more like ND and MN= MB. Manitoba has a lot more treed areas than any other Prairie province I think.

Good comparison!

You could argue that Alberta has the most forested area of the Prairies.

[DoubleK]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

- Alberta = Montana, but with hints of Colorado and Texas

Alberta is way more Colorado than it is Montana.

[craner]

Calgary’s American equivalent is Denver for sure.

[rousseau]

Originally Posted by someone123

I wonder if China is the same way internally.

That's an easy question to answer. The answer: No.

China is too monolithic and homogenous for that. It also doesn't have the cultural/historical amnesia required for tabula rasa thinking like the US does, so while they may have some of the parochialism of an exalted national pride, they're also fully aware of and can't deny the West's ascendance, supremacy and global dominance over the last 500 years.

You can't dismiss a culture that gave you the Beethoven that you're desperate for your kid to learn. And the Opium Wars were only 170 years ago. So no, nobody in China is chuckling at benighted souls living in New York "which is best understood as our version of cosmopolitan Shanghai."

[someone123]

Originally Posted by rousseau

You can't dismiss a culture that gave you the Beethoven that you're desperate for your kid to learn. And the Opium Wars were only 170 years ago. So no, nobody in China is chuckling at benighted souls living in New York "which is best understood as our version of cosmopolitan Shanghai."

I think this makes sense but this seems like the "academic" level mentioned earlier. Do a lot of Chinese (from the perspective of China, population 1.4B) have the means to or need to go to other countries? To what degree does their domestic cultural scene incorporate a lot of foreign elements in a "first class" way? I don't know the answer to that, although it seems like it's been moving in a less integrated direction.

[rousseau]

Originally Posted by someone123

I think this makes sense but this seems like the "academic" level mentioned earlier. Do a lot of Chinese (from the perspective of China, population 1.4B) have the means to or need to go to other countries? To what degree does their domestic cultural scene incorporate a lot of foreign elements in a "first class" way? I don't know the answer to that, although it seems like it's been moving in a less integrated direction.

The old cliché about being able to discuss worldwide bauxite production with a taxi driver in Europe sort of applies here. The great reverence for learning means that factory workers can recite Tang era poetry and the sayings of Confucius in the same way that North Americans could do Fonzie's "ayyyyy!" in the 1970s and 80s. Practically everybody knows about the great stuff from the West that is held in high regard in China. You don't need to have travelled to Vienna to be aware of it.

My impression is that the West is an antagonist to China in the same way and on the same scale as it was to the Soviet Union.