PHILADELPHIA | Lowrise/General Developments Thread

[Kidphilly]

Originally Posted by Larry King

Yep, either Camden or sports complex make the most sense

what about some where between say Callowhill and Spring Garden like 3rd to the river

[McBane]

Originally Posted by Kidphilly

what about some where between say Callowhill and Spring Garden like 3rd to the river

Anything proposed in these perimeter neighborhoods will face enormous pushback and a big part of that has to do with parking. In that case, the proposal would need to include massive parking to keep folks from parking in the neighborhood. As far as I'm concerned, there's no better place for the stadiums than where it currently is.

[Londonee]

Originally Posted by McBane

Oh we're talking about downtown/urban stadiums/arenas? Except for a few exceptions that have been around for decades (Fenway, Wrigley, MSG, Yankee Stadium), downtown stadiums are most usually found in B cities as part of an economic development tool to help revive a boring or decaying downtown. Philadelphia, thankfully, doesn't need that.

South Philly can keep all the stadiums, their sea of parking lots, and cheesy/chain bars and restaurants.

Stadiums versus Arenas are different beasts and not close to comparable. A stadium holds 50,000 - 90,000 people and takes up a massive footprint and hosts relatively few events. An NBA arena can be very geographically compact, seat just 18,000, host dozens of concerts, even more events (corporate, social, etc.), major NCAA events/games, and once the Sixers are cruising in the playoffs - 50 NBA games a year. In other words, you can activate an NBA Arena on 200 nights a year - it's a nightlife hub. A well run, downtown NBA arena can hold more events than the Academy of Music. If you were running an entertainment business, would you put a theater or a restaurant down in the sticks surrounded by parking lots and 10 minute walk from the Subway?

Why is this that hard to figure out? Forget SunBelt "B" Cities (as you call them...) Comparable dense core cities like Boston, Chicago, NY, Brooklyn, DC, LA, and soon San Francisco all have downtown, or centrally located, arenas.

Basketball belongs in a city - the idea of it, the vibe of it, it's theater, it's showtime - the other 3 can stay down in the sticks.

[PHL10]

My biggest issue with an arena in Camden is that South Jersey only represents about a quarter of the metro. So the majority of people driving will have to cross a bridge, those coming in on Regional Rail, would need to take the El to 8th Street to get on Patco. Taking train or bus to fern rock and then jumping on the subway for an express ride to the game, also disappears as an option. In so many ways, it would be an inconvenience to the majority of the fan base so why do it? It wouldn’t be as bad as the Union stadium in Chester but it’s moving us in that direction.

[Groundhog]

Originally Posted by PHL10

My biggest issue with an arena in Camden is that South Jersey only represents about a quarter of the metro. So the majority of people driving will have to cross a bridge, those coming in on Regional Rail, would need to take the El to 8th Street to get on Patco. Taking train or bus to fern rock and then jumping on the subway for an express ride to the game, also disappears as an option. In so many ways, it would be an inconvenience to the majority of the fan base so why do it? It wouldn’t be as bad as the Union stadium in Chester but it’s moving us in that direction.

Because of money, just ask the Braves.

[allovertown]

Originally Posted by McBane

I want the Sixers to remain in Philly, preferably South Philly. But I think you're putting too much stock in Camden's woes. Most people know two Camdens: the Camden Waterfront and Camden Camden. Plenty of people go to the Aquarium and whatever they're calling the music venue these days without ever setting foot anywhere else (We have an aquarium membership and take our young children all the time - no safety concerns whatsoever). Whatever crime and blight is happening in the city isn't stopping anyone from visiting the waterfront attractions. And this doesn't even count all the folks who will be working along there soon enough.

Again, I'd much rather keep all the sports venues centralized but I wouldn't dismiss Camden so quickly.

You do make an interesting point about ancillary venue income. To answer your question, why would a performer choose Camden over South Philly? Lots of reasons. That's why there is a music venue on the Camden Waterfront that attracts all sorts of big time acts. With that being said however, you're not going to get TWO music venues along the Camden Waterfront. That's just not happening. Neither is AHL hockey, since the Flyers/Comcast own the Phantoms. Mr. Harris would have to think of something else to fill the seats when the Sixers are not playing.

You won't find me trashing Camden, I've posted extensively in the past that it is a lot closer to its rebirth than many realize even people on this forum where people are pretty plugged in.

I was simply talking about perception. And when i asked why a concert would choose Camden I wasn't slighting Camden as much as I was pointing out it would be hard to differentiate between anothet similarily sized arena a few miles away as well as an outdoor venue even closer. They'd all canibilize each other.

Regarding your point about downtown arenas and stadiums I don't entirely agree. stadiums do not belong downtown but I think arenas are kind of a wash. I agree with the negative factors you mentioned but there is certainly a benefit to a downtown arena that goes well beyond sports or even entertainment. For example with the DNC, having to travel miles to get from convention center to WFC created problems and there are of course other non political conventions that could make use of 15000+ seating presentation space. A downtown arena can be used for all kinds of events and can really be as asset.

So basically I think the benefits cancel out the negatives and vice versa. So if we didn't have an arena I'd be fine with it going downtown... or not. But since we already have one that is perfectly nice and is about to get even nicer I'm totally against any public money going towards its creation. Which basically means I'm against it because it's not happening without public money.

[McBane]

Originally Posted by Londonee

Stadiums versus Arenas are different beasts and not close to comparable. A stadium holds 50,000 - 90,000 people and takes up a massive footprint and hosts relatively few events. An NBA arena can be very geographically compact, seat just 18,000, host dozens of concerts, even more events (corporate, social, etc.), major NCAA events/games, and once the Sixers are cruising in the playoffs - 50 NBA games a year. In other words, you can activate an NBA Arena on 200 nights a year - it's a nightlife hub. A well run, downtown NBA arena can hold more events than the Academy of Music. If you were running an entertainment business, would you put a theater or a restaurant down in the sticks surrounded by parking lots and 10 minute walk from the Subway?

Why is this that hard to figure out? Forget SunBelt "B" Cities (as you call them...) Comparable dense core cities like Boston, Chicago, NY, Brooklyn, DC, LA, and soon San Francisco all have downtown, or centrally located, arenas.

Basketball belongs in a city - the idea of it, the vibe of it, it's theater, it's showtime - the other 3 can stay down in the sticks.

I'll give you this. If done right, an arena could be a focal point for Schuylkill Yards. But it would have to well integrated with its surroundings, close to 30th St Station, and with limited parking.

[Knight Hospitaller]

^ An arena would be a great candidate for over the rails (i.e., one of the spots set to be undeveloped or landscaped in the 30th St. plans). It would (speaking as one with zero engineering expertise) probably need less support than a high rise.

[Londonee]

Originally Posted by Knight Hospitaller

^ An arena would be a great candidate for over the rails (i.e., one of the spots set to be undeveloped or landscaped in the 30th St. plans). It would (speaking as one with zero engineering expertise) probably need less support than a high rise.

Yes it would be.

[Parkway]

That's also the one spot they could put it without facing any reasonable community opposition to the project.

[Groundhog]

Originally Posted by Parkway

That's also the one spot they could put it without facing any reasonable community opposition to the project.

Would still rather have them stay in the Sports Complex, but if they had to move, the parking lot in from of the Cira Center or somewhere similar would be the next best option.

[iheartphilly]

Sport Complex off 95. Anything of that scale off 76 doesn't make sense. 76 is a diaster as is now and anything that adds to it will be an irrevocable nightmare.

[Parkway]

Originally Posted by iheartphilly

Sport Complex off 95. Anything of that scale off 76 doesn't make sense. 76 is a diaster as is now and anything that adds to it will be an irrevocable nightmare.

The major advantage to that site is the train station. You limit the amount of parking and charge a bunch of money for it. The not so subtle message should be, "take the train or stay home".

Edit: I'm not saying I think it should go there but if they don't want to do the sports complex 30th Street has the most upside and the least resistance.

[City Wide]

Originally Posted by PHL10

My biggest issue with an arena in Camden is that South Jersey only represents about a quarter of the metro. So the majority of people driving will have to cross a bridge, those coming in on Regional Rail, would need to take the El to 8th Street to get on Patco. Taking train or bus to fern rock and then jumping on the subway for an express ride to the game, also disappears as an option. In so many ways, it would be an inconvenience to the majority of the fan base so why do it? It wouldn’t be as bad as the Union stadium in Chester but it’s moving us in that direction.

Camden would just be another arena is the middle of parking lots, nothing special, and could be anywhere. Also all those other non game possibilities that a new in town arena might have, as Londonee talked about, how many of them do you see happening in Camden.

I wonder what's the next wave in arena design? Could it be a smaller, high tech gourmet experience, no more cheap ($50) seats.

[jsbrook]

On the urban arena point, I have to say there's a lot going for it. I was at Madison Square Garden for the Michigan game Sunday. After it let out, people quickly disbursed in all directions. I walked one block away and you'd never know a sporting event had let out. I got a Lyft in 2 minutes and moved onto my next stop for the night.

[Nova08]

Originally Posted by jsbrook

On the urban arena point, I have to say there's a lot going for it. I was at Madison Square Garden for the Michigan game Sunday. After it let out, people quickly disbursed in all directions. I walked one block away and you'd never know a sporting event had let out. I got a Lyft in 2 minutes and moved onto my next stop for the night.

Comparing MSG to anything is like comparing apples to oranges. It's located in a busy part of the biggest city in the US on top of the biggest transportation hub in the US.

Any urban arena scenario in Philly would need a significant public retail/restaurant component. Wells Fargo is great during the ~5 hours before/during/after an event, but outside of the Comcast Spectacor 9-5 employees it is a dead zone the rest of the day. It's the stadium complex so it goes unnoticed, but that would kill a city block or two if it were in an urban location.

And when teams struggle, people don't come out. I can't imagine McFaddens at the ballpark has done well the past 5 years as the Phillies are near dead last in attendance. Xfinity was probably in the same boat only 2 years ago as the Sixers were near dead last in the league.

[allovertown]

Originally Posted by Nova08

Comparing MSG to anything is like comparing apples to oranges. It's located in a busy part of the biggest city in the US on top of the biggest transportation hub in the US.

Any urban arena scenario in Philly would need a significant public retail/restaurant component. Wells Fargo is great during the ~5 hours before/during/after an event, but outside of the Comcast Spectacor 9-5 employees it is a dead zone the rest of the day. It's the stadium complex so it goes unnoticed, but that would kill a city block or two if it were in an urban location.

And when teams struggle, people don't come out. I can't imagine McFaddens at the ballpark has done well the past 5 years as the Phillies are near dead last in attendance. Xfinity was probably in the same boat only 2 years ago as the Sixers were near dead last in the league.

Yea but the point about McFaddens and Xfinity is kind of misleading. They're dead zones when the teams don't do well... because they are located in dead zones and the only thing that brings people there are sporting events. Obviously if there was a bar attached to a downtown arena, how the team is doing is largely irrelevant as there are of course plenty of sports bars in center city that do quite well regardless of how the teams are playing and don't even have the benefit of arena's worth of people stopping by every few days.

If they plopped WFC in Center City, obviously that would be a disaster. That's not what anyone is suggesting though. The way arena's have tiered seating they are basically made to have street facing retail all the way around the perimeter. There is no reason for an arena to kill a city block.

MSG and its circumstances are unique, but a location next to 30th street station in a bustling new high rise tech neighborhood is about as close to MSG circumstances as you'll find in America. It's a little more relevant than apples and oranges.

[Urbanthusiat]

Schuylkill River Trail Receives $12M in Federal Funding for Completion

After years of lobbying in D.C., Pennsylvania senators Bob Casey and Pat Toomey announced on Tuesday that they have secured $12 million in federal funding to help pay for the completion of the Schuylkill River Trail in Philadelphia.

Voted the best urban trail by USA Today in 2015, the SRT is a 130-mile multiuse path that begins all the way out in Schuylkill County and will now stretch as far as southwest Philly thanks to a U.S. Department of Transportation grant. Bridging the gap known as the Christian to Crescent Connection, the completion project will connect Center City to the trail’s existing Grays Ferry Crescent section, near Bartram’s Garden, by utilizing an elevated track and a cable-stayed bridge spanning the river and a few active docks.

“Investing in the Schuylkill River Trail expansion isn’t just about enhancing another one of the City of Philadelphia’s many tourist attractions – this is an investment in the economy, health and growth of the city,” Sen. Casey said in a release. “Providing a safe and sustainable way for residents to commute and enjoy the city not only makes it attractive for newcomers but also for businesses.”

Read more at https://www.phillymag.com/news/2018/...8bShm9QT544.99

[jsbrook]

It's not just MSG. Wrigley Field is similar. And that area otherwise does fine separate from the stadium and game days. When done right, urban stadiums can both up the convenience for city residents and rail commuters alike, be well integrated into the surrounding neighborhood, and not deaden the streetscape. Also, a lot of my freinds and family in the suburbs already take the train to games and do not drive.

Originally Posted by Nova08

Comparing MSG to anything is like comparing apples to oranges. It's located in a busy part of the biggest city in the US on top of the biggest transportation hub in the US.

Any urban arena scenario in Philly would need a significant public retail/restaurant component. Wells Fargo is great during the ~5 hours before/during/after an event, but outside of the Comcast Spectacor 9-5 employees it is a dead zone the rest of the day. It's the stadium complex so it goes unnoticed, but that would kill a city block or two if it were in an urban location.

And when teams struggle, people don't come out. I can't imagine McFaddens at the ballpark has done well the past 5 years as the Phillies are near dead last in attendance. Xfinity was probably in the same boat only 2 years ago as the Sixers were near dead last in the league.

[Justin7]

Highly recommend a stay in Boston while the Phillies are in town if you want to get a feel of what the energy is like when a ballpark/arena/stadium is really connected to a city. Take the T to Fenway.

Philly doubtlessly has one of the most passionate fan bases in sports. Trapping so much of that game day love and money in the sports complex wasteland is a big loss.