Yes, Michiganians, Ohio has better roads

[Buckeye Native 001]

Indiana: The Midwest's Alabama

[LMich]

It ain't called the Middle Finger of the Confederacy for nothing.

And, for any Hoosiers reading this, we're just having fun. I mean, I posted this thread to discuss the crappy conditions of my own state's roads. lol

[Rizzo]

Originally Posted by hudkina

So it's the noisy concrete that bothers you? I'm just saying. When I drive to Cedar Point, there's some bumpy freeways in Toledo. They just reconstructed a huge section of I-75 through southern Wayne County into Monroe County. Streetview shows the construction in progress but the satellite images show the freshly minted freeway. So you quit... lol.

Michigan screeded pavement 90 degrees to direction of travel. They don't do that anymore so pavement should be silent since at least repaving since the 2000's. Same in Indiana and Illinois. Ohio has more asphalt topped roads than concrete.

[hudkina]

Originally Posted by Cleveland Brown

I think that you're the last Michigan roads booster in the world.

Because I'm telling the truth about how many of the freeways and state/national routes have been reconstructed in the last decade or two? The problem isn't the freeways, for the most part. It's the surface streets; country roads in particular are in HORRIBLE shape. There are a few projects around me (Allen Rd was reasphalted for a huge chunk of its route, Pennsylvania Rd was reconstructed from Allen Rd to Fort St, West Rd was reconstructed from Telegraph Rd to I-75, etc.) but for the most part many of the county roads haven't been touched in decades besides filling in the massive potholes that form every year.

[Rizzo]

I would say Michigan Roads have VASTLY improved in the last decade only my opinion though in terms of cities, Chicago has the worst condition roads. But I'd give freeways in Michigan a B+, state highways a B, local roads in bigger cities a C-. I'd give Ohio freeways an A-, state highways a B, local roads a B.

The reflectors in the road were nice but provided minimal assistance to overall cost. Paint reflectivity got better and sometimes contrast paint is used. I think illinois is taking them out too.

[Cleveland Brown]

Originally Posted by Hayward

Michigan screeded pavement 90 degrees to direction of travel. They don't do that anymore so pavement should be silent since at least repaving since the 2000's. Same in Indiana and Illinois. Ohio has more asphalt topped roads than concrete.

Show me one concrete road that is as silent as a well-maintained asphalt road or as smooth riding. Also, I've noticed that some highways in Michigan seemingly have the drainage groves parallel with the direction of travel. While it may reduce noise, I've noticed that on curved sections it negatively affects steering - especially when wet.

Originally Posted by hudkina

Because I'm telling the truth about how many of the freeways and state/national routes have been reconstructed in the last decade or two? The problem isn't the freeways, for the most part. It's the surface streets; country roads in particular are in HORRIBLE shape. There are a few projects around me (Allen Rd was reasphalted for a huge chunk of its route, Pennsylvania Rd was reconstructed from Allen Rd to Fort St, West Rd was reconstructed from Telegraph Rd to I-75, etc.) but for the most part many of the county roads haven't been touched in decades besides filling in the massive potholes that form every year.

No, you're a booster because no one cares about a subset of roadway when the overall picture is poor. No one disagrees with you that many Michigan highways have been reconstructed, but even with recent and planned repairs Michigan's highways still won't be comparable to Ohio's highways and certainly not to Ohio's state, county, and local roads. And I'll take asphalt over concrete any day of the week. But, yes, please keep reminding us of that two-mile stretch of highway around Toledo that wasn't as nice as the brand new Wayne/Monroe county stretch of I-75.

[Cleveland Brown]

Originally Posted by Buckeye Native 001

Indiana: The Midwest's Alabama

Alabama? The song isn't Mississippi Goddamn for nothing!

• Video Link

[uaarkson]

I'll never complain about Michigan's roads again after 8 months of driving around NYC. I've been stranded 3 times by rim-destroying potholes.

[hudkina]

Originally Posted by Cleveland Brown

No, you're a booster because no one cares about a subset of roadway when the overall picture is poor.

I certainly care when I get to drive on those brand new roads. And when did I say the overall picture isn't poor. I've stated several times that the worst of the worst is the surface streets, aka the county roads.

Originally Posted by Cleveland Brown

No one disagrees with you that many Michigan highways have been reconstructed, but even with recent and planned repairs Michigan's highways still won't be comparable to Ohio's highways and certainly not to Ohio's state, county, and local roads.

When did I say otherwise? In fact, I remember specifically calling the county roads HORRIBLE several times, but I guess I'm a booster for merely mentioning the good things that Granholm started when she directed most road funding to maintaining and replacing current roads, rather than expanding or creating new roads. I never once stated that those efforts have allowed Michigan to surpass Ohio in road quality, but I guess saying one thing means something entirely different.

Originally Posted by Cleveland Brown

And I'll take asphalt over concrete any day of the week.

That's your opinion. I definitely prefer the long-term durability of concrete over asphalt. Especially in Michigan. Asphalt is generally in excellent condition for a season or two (depending on the weather and traffic), good condition for maybe three to five years, and fair to poor condition for maybe five to seven years (especially when heavily traveled by large trucks). After that it is nothing but cracks, potholes, bumps, waves, grooves, etc. Concrete on the other hand is often in excellent condition for a good five years, good condition for maybe a decade, and depending on various conditions fair to poor condition for ten to forty years.

Originally Posted by Cleveland Brown

But, yes, please keep reminding us of that two-mile stretch of highway around Toledo that wasn't as nice as the brand new Wayne/Monroe county stretch of I-75.

I will when you make comments like this:

On I-75 northbound I'm always tempted to pull over for a (phantom) flat as soon as I cross over into Michigan.

I'm not sure how you can get a flat tire on newly minted freeway, but whatever. And even when I say that, that doesn't mean I think Michigan has better roads than Ohio. On the contrary, clearly, many states have better roads than Michigan, but in the supposed example you give, it's clearly untrue...

[Cleveland Brown]

^ Dude, you were the one who initially claimed that Monroe county freeways were in better shape than those on the Ohio side. You never point to a particular location in Toledo nor Lucas county. And I just drove that stretch a few weeks ago, with the exception of a small recently rebuilt stretch around flat rock, I don't remember (I could be wrong) the Michigan border side being newly reconstructed. As for Michigan's side of I-75 being "newly minted freeway" that seems to be news to MDOT who says that they won't start construction on I-75 in Monroe county at the border until SPRING 2015.

And yet you call me a liar for stating that there is an immediate difference, in Ohio's favor, when crossing the I-75 border between Michigan and Ohio?

http://www.michigan.gov/documents/md...t_447734_7.pdf

http://www.michigan.gov/documents/md...r_440435_7.pdf

https://www.google.com/maps/@41.732,...t1_czySh6w!2e0

[hudkina]

So... You did drive on newly minted freeway in Monroe County, right?

[ardecila]

Originally Posted by hudkina

That's your opinion. I definitely prefer the long-term durability of concrete over asphalt. Especially in Michigan. Asphalt is generally in excellent condition for a season or two (depending on the weather and traffic), good condition for maybe three to five years, and fair to poor condition for maybe five to seven years (especially when heavily traveled by large trucks). After that it is nothing but cracks, potholes, bumps, waves, grooves, etc. Concrete on the other hand is often in excellent condition for a good five years, good condition for maybe a decade, and depending on various conditions fair to poor condition for ten to forty years.

Not to mention that concrete roads are just more attractive IMO.

I've seen some attractive asphalt expressways (I-270 in Maryland) but usually in the Midwestern climate, asphalt just fades to an ugly mottled gray studded with hairline cracks.

[Cleveland Brown]

Originally Posted by hudkina

So... You did drive on newly minted freeway in Monroe County, right?

That's not the point. Twenty miles of I-75 in Monroe county remain to be reconstructed in the upcoming years - according to MDOT. But yes, you can totally leap to the conclusion that because a tiny stretch of I-75 next to Wayne county has recently been reconstructed then it makes all of Monroe county freeways better than those in the Toledo area. Absolutely logical, especially without any evidence that the majority of Toledo freeway mileage is in worse condition than the majority of Monroe county freeway mileage. Here's a clue, I wouldn't be surprised if mileage in the recent bridge construction on I-280, you know the road you take to Cedar Point, exceeds what has been reconstructed on I-75 in Monroe county.

[hudkina]

Even excluding the new freeway in northern Monroe County, much of the stretch between the city of Monroe and Toledo isn't in terrible shape, particularly enough to cause any sort of damage to a vehicle. Now if you wanted to damage your car, you should have driven down Pennsylvania Rd west of Allen Rd (particularly around the Ford plant) about a month ago. There were a few potholes there that could really rough up your car. They have since patched them, but road conditions like what exists on Pennsylvania are pretty common throughout the metro area. I'll take the freeway conditions over those roads any day of the week. This winter was particularly harsh to Michigan roads.

[Buckeye Native 001]

If its not already being used, would rubberized asphalt be a worthwhile investment in the Midwest taking into consideration the variations in temperatures as well as humidity?

The Arizona Department of Transportation uses it on the freeways here because it apparently allows for concrete to expand during our horrific summer months without causing too many cracks. It also makes for an incredibly smooth ride, but that might be because most of the freeways around Phoenix have been constructed in the last two decades.

[uaarkson]

Freeze-thaw cycles would destroy those even faster than regular asphalt.

[Buckeye Native 001]

Okay thanks, wasn't sure if that was feasible or not.

[LMich]

An interesting read from this morning explaining why Michigan collects such a high gas tax with so little results when it comes to maintaining roads. It seems that though Michigan has among the highest gas taxes in the country, it spends some of the lowest dollars per lane-mile of states in the region. Only Iowa is lower. While current legislation likely to be passed will increase the gas tax even more - highest in the country by 2018 - it will also plow significantly more of the money back directly into the roads.

Why Michiganders pay among highest gas taxes - to drive on crummy roads

By Paul Egan | Detroit Free Press

May 23, 2014

LANSING — High fuel taxes and low spending on roads.

It’s a nasty combination, but Michigan motorists can rightfully complain they pay some of the highest fuel taxes to drive on some of the lousiest roads.

According to national data, Michigan has the sixth-highest state taxes on gasoline but one of the lowest rates of investment on roads in the nation.

...

On Tuesday, lawmakers could vote on bills that would significantly increase gas taxes — by more than 25 cents a gallon over the next four years — but also sharply drive up state spending on roads for the first time in 17 years.

If passed in their present form, the bills would give Michigan total state gas taxes close to the highest in the nation — with California and New York — as early as January. By 2018, when the new 9.5% wholesale tax on fuel is scheduled to increase to 15.5%, Michigan’s tax would easily be the highest in the country, barring significant increases in other states.

But adding about $1.3 billion a year in additional road investment — the amount the Michigan Department of Transportation says would be dedicated directly to roads if the bills raise $1.5 billion — would move Michigan up about nine places, toward the middle of the pack, in spending per lane-mile of road, where it now ranks 33rd.

...

Why does Michigan have such high taxes on fuel but relatively low spending on roads?

Carl Davis, a senior analyst at the Institute on Taxation and Economic Policy in Washington, D.C., said Michigan is one of only four states, with Indiana, Illinois and Hawaii, that fully apply their general sales tax to fuel sales.

Of the 41.4 cents in state taxes Michigan motorists pay on a gallon of fuel, only 19 cents is a fuel tax dedicated to transportation. The other 22.4 cents is all sales tax, and under Michigan’s constitution, most of it goes to schools and local governments and very little of it can be spent on roads.

Remove that 22.4 cents from the equation and Michigan’s 19-cent fuel tax ties with Arizona for ninth-lowest among the states.

...

And based on 2012 data from the Federal Highway Administration, Michigan ranks 33rd among states for the amount of investment per lane-mile of road; 47th for investment per vehicle mile driven, and dead last among the 50 states for investment per driver.

[JonathanGRR]

^
I wish I had that statistic/information to give to a guy at work today who kept complaining that they might raise the gas tax or user fees. --'Why do I have to pay extra to drive on the roads...that's why I pay taxes! Make them [the representatives] pay for it; after all, they're lining their pockets with all the taxes I pay for the roads now.' ...Man, you'd think that driving on a nice road for free was some God-given right or something.