CFL 2021 season?

[EpicPonyTime]

Originally Posted by esquire

I would imagine that whatever arrangement is agreed to will be sensitive to Canadian sensibilities... they're not just going to flush all that goodwill down the toilet.

It depends on the type of arrangement it is.

If it's just a strategic partnership where the two leagues will work together, cross promote, and share expertise? No question, the CFL would be dumb not to explore this. It's astonishing how well the XFL connected with young fans in some of its markets and the CFL could use that energy. Even having the Rock associated with the brand is likely to make some people's perception of the league flip overnight.

If the leagues intend for there to be a merger, it's not clear how they could do that and respect the CFL's heritage. US laws do not allow for the ratio, so you'd either have to get rid of it or only require it in Canada. The American stadiums cannot handle a Canadian field, so that would likely have to change as well. It's unlikely the XFL would adopt Canadian rules, and any attempts to create a compromise rulebook would likely be a disaster. Finally, the disproportionate size of the American markets would guarantee that, without serious revenue sharing, 2/3rds of the Canadian teams wouldn't be able to compete financially.

Even doing something as "simple" as combining head offices and operating both leagues separately under one organization is problematic. I don't see how a merger could work.

[thurmas]

I could see it similar to MLB with the American and National leagues. CFL stays in Canada play with the ratio and 3 downs and larger field. XFL US teams play with US players 4 downs smaller field. Canadian Champ is still the Grey Cup champ and they would play the XFL champ in a 2 game series 1 in Canada under Canadian rules and 1 in US under US rules. You could still have inter conference games in the regular season to keep things interesting. If there is a merger maybe the CFL teams can get 30-50% off the XFL expansion team fees to help recoup the losses incurred during covid. XFL tv ratings just before covid killed the league were pretty good and imagine watching the Bombers or Ticats on Fox or ABC that would be pretty cool.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Acajack

While it certainly looked like a good idea at the time (and I wouldn't have suggested another approach) I really think the CFL missed the boat with the way it managed the "growth" file in the late 70s and early 80s.

For those who remember, "the big time" and "growth" for the CFL back then meant putting a few teams in the biggest cities in NFL-sized stadiums. And so that's what happened in Montreal, Toronto, Vancouver and even Edmonton.

An unfortunate effect of that is that it also imposed a fairly rigid lower bar of stadium size based on the smallest stadiums in the league at the time, i.e. in the upper 20,000s. (I realize there were financial considerations as well related to capacity and attendance.)

At that point the gap between the Big O and Lansdowne may have been a big one but tolerable, but the gap between the Big O and the PEPS in Quebec City would have been just too great.

As a result since then no one has given the time of day to any potential CFL city that had a smaller stadium.

All of which to say that a CFL with Montreal and Toronto playing in smaller stadiums, with multiple other teams playing in 15-18,000 seaters in places like Quebec City, London or Halifax, might actually have been a better way to go.

With the higher interest across the country that that could have generated, it's quite possible that 30-40 years later, Quebec City, Halifax and London might even have graduated to 25-30,000 seaters by now, as the viability of the product could have been demonstrated to local officials.

Quoting myself from a month ago to the day, since I think it's relevant to the discussion currently taking place.

[drto]

From a die hard Rider fan/fan of the CFL in general, living in the BC interior, the only way I’m in favor of this association with the XFL, would be a financial boost that somehow facilitates and perhaps fasttracks the expansion into Halifax and then eventually further expansion into other Canadian cities while ensuring elevation of each current teams’ financial position and fanbases. Any merger or tampering with CFL rules, field size, player ratios etc and I’m not interested. The 90”s experiment should have been a learning experience for the league that what makes us great is our uniqueness.

[thurmas]

Fans seem to forget the reason cfl did us expansion in the 90s was they were broke and needed the expansion fees to survive. Cfl lost 80 million this year due to covid-19 they don't have the luxury of being picky and choosy they need xfl expansion fees to survive as the recent bell tsn cuts show bell is not willing to help the cfl out.

[thurmas]

Rod Pedersen reporting today that the CFL-XFL merger is really the Rock and his company Firebird marketing buying the CFL and making this a 20 team North American league starting in 2022 that would be a minor-pro version of the AHL for football. The Rock and his resources hopefully could make this long term similar to MLS soccer where the teams have stronger financial resources, better marketing/entertainment efforts with the Rock at the helm.

here is the link to Rod Pedersen's report today:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MO52mcTpdjA

[jonny24]

Originally Posted by thurmas

Rod Pedersen reporting today that the CFL-XFL merger is really the Rock and his company Firebird marketing buying the CFL and making this a 20 team North American league starting in 2022 that would be a minor-pro version of the AHL for football. The Rock and his resources hopefully could make this long term similar to MLS soccer where the teams have stronger financial resources, better marketing/entertainment efforts with the Rock at the helm.

here is the link to Rod Pedersen's report today:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MO52mcTpdjA

If so, I'm out.

We have a rugby team now, I'll watch that.

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by jonny24

If so, I'm out.

Me too.

At least with the CFL we could pretend it was a major league sport. If it is destined to be nothing more than a development league like the AHL, then I won't bother watching it.

I think interest in the league would dry up pretty quick in Canada, except for perhaps on the Prairies. I imagine league expansion to Halifax would be taken off the table (in favour of expanding to some Podunk cities in the deep south). Toronto certainly would turn up it's nose at a minor league affiliate team. The Argonauts would certainly disappear, and I imagine Montreal would too. Ottawa and Hamilton might stick around. I don't know what would happen to Vancouver.

It would be the end of three down football for sure.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by thurmas

Rod Pedersen reporting today that the CFL-XFL merger is really the Rock and his company Firebird marketing buying the CFL and making this a 20 team North American league starting in 2022 that would be a minor-pro version of the AHL for football. The Rock and his resources hopefully could make this long term similar to MLS soccer where the teams have stronger financial resources, better marketing/entertainment efforts with the Rock at the helm.

here is the link to Rod Pedersen's report today:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MO52mcTpdjA

That's not quite what I took away from that excerpt.

But I guess we'll see.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

Me too.

At least with the CFL we could pretend it was a major league sport. If it is destined to be nothing more than a development league like the AHL, then I won't bother watching it.

I think interest in the league would dry up pretty quick in Canada, except for perhaps on the Prairies. I imagine league expansion to Halifax would be taken off the table (in favour of expanding to some Podunk cities in the deep south). Toronto certainly would turn up it's nose at a minor league affiliate team. The Argonauts would certainly disappear, and I imagine Montreal would too. Ottawa and Hamilton might stick around. I don't know what would happen to Vancouver.

It would be the end of three down football for sure.

If the next CFL-XFL-Firebird is as you guys describe, then I definitely agree with you on the likely outcomes.

I see a Canadian "division" with attendance in the 10,000 range, which is half to a third of what CFL teams typically average these days.

Like you I also don't see Toronto and Montreal (and probably not Vancouver either) lasting very long in this type of league.

Which will actually make my prophecy (that dates back several years) finally come true: No CFL = no pro football of any kind in Toronto (or Montreal for that matter).

[Acajack]

I did a quick scan of social media and there is a lot of criticism of Ambrosie and the CFL selling out Canadian football and all that jazz...

In fairness to them, we on here don't have the numbers and the prognosis, and there may not be any other choice if we want to have some form of pro gridiron football operating in Canada going forward.

We might say it's a logical or inevitable conclusion to the multi-decade psycho-drama after all that has been done by both powerful interests and individual Canadians to kill off the CFL since the 1980s.

One reaps what one sows.

[MonctonRad]

This is getting bloody depressing. One thread has forum members gleefully expounding on the virtues of tossing the Queen to the curb, and a second thread is predicting the inevitable demise of the CFL. All of our Canadian iconography is in peril. We might as well just throw our lot in with the Yanks!

[esquire]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I did a quick scan of social media and there is a lot of criticism of Ambrosie and the CFL selling out Canadian football and all that jazz...

In fairness to them, we on here don't have the numbers and the prognosis, and there may not be any other choice if we want to have some form of pro gridiron football operating in Canada going forward.

We might say it's a logical or inevitable conclusion to the multi-decade psycho-drama after all that has been done by both powerful interests and individual Canadians to kill off the CFL since the 1980s.

One reaps what one sows.

I don't think this idea would have been given the time of day three years ago. Remember, Vince McMahon approached the CFL about bringing it into the fold back in 2000 when he first hatched the XFL scheme. At that point the CFL, which was still suffering a bit after its late 90s near death experience, was in a position to say thanks, but no thanks.

This time I'm not sure the CFL has that luxury. Losing an entire season to covid was a very costly blow, and there is no guarantee that the league will be able to play this year although I'd say the prospects of at least some sort of season are reasonable. But still, the CFL is walking a very fine line between survival and demise.

Not to play the finger pointing game here, but if the big 3 Canadian markets demonstrated even a moderate level of support for the CFL then the CFL probably wouldn't be in this position... it would be able to say thanks, but no thanks as it did in 2000. But that is not really the case. And yeah, I know the usual schadenfraeude gang trolling this thread will pop in and say Toronto doesn't owe the CFL anything and that's true... but what will we have to show for killing the CFL, or in this case, transforming it into something totally different? Montreal and Vancouver have about as much chance of landing a NFL team as Winnipeg does, and Toronto, despite being Canada's best bet for a team, has been completely unable to make progress on that front for over 40 years despite the best efforts of some very wealthy and influential people.

So when its most important markets are stubbornly resistant to embracing the product, what else is the CFL to do but to look elsewhere? It's basically either that or fading away entirely.

[HomeInMyShoes]

Time for Saskatchewan and Regina to get a CPL team.

[Acajack]

There is still a lot of uncertainty.

It's definitely possible that the talks with XFL and The Rock fall apart and nothing becomes of that.

Though if that's the case it's unclear to me what that means for the CFL.

Will it still muddle through as it always has or will its ability to operate be seriously compromised?

Again, we're not privy to the nitty-gritty details beyond the fact that the situation is not very good.

If the CFL falls apart or even becomes an AHL-style farm league, it kinda sucks for cities like Regina and Winnipeg that recently spent hundreds of millions on shiny stadiums for a product expected to draw around 30,000 people fairly consistently. (Though who knows? Perhaps crowds would still be good for a radically different gridiron product there? I doubt it, but anything is possible.)

Toronto has everything to make an NFL team work if we're being honest, EXCEPT (and it's a big IF) it has no stadium and it's hard to imagine someone paying a couple of billion for that PLUS a couple of billion for the franchise. Stranger things have happened but it still seems unlikely. Toronto already has the SkyDome for large concerts and other events, so aside from 8-9 NFL games a year, what other events could a 70,000-seat stadium be used for in that city?

I've said before that a revved-up CFL is the best (and probably only) option for pro gridiron football in Canada, but seems like not enough Canadians are on board for that.

So the options before us right now are a) a semi-moribund CFL like the status quo, b) a lower level farm league of sorts run by the XFL or c) no pro gridiron football at all in the short term and likely the medium term too.

Coupled with lots of watching the NFL on TV, of course, augmented by occasional trips across the border to catch games live. (Fairly regular for a tiny number of people, once-in-a-lifetime bucket list trips for many others.)

I was (and still am) looking forward to catching a couple of Redblacks games as soon as they start up again. Family commitments don't allow me to have season tickets but I try to attend two (sometimes 3) games a year. We'll see how that goes.

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by HomeInMyShoes

Time for Saskatchewan and Regina to get a CPL team.

CPL's announcing a new expansion team for 2022 in...20 minutes, so maybe you'll get your wish.

Originally Posted by thurmas

Rod Pedersen reporting today that the CFL-XFL merger is really the Rock and his company Firebird marketing buying the CFL and making this a 20 team North American league starting in 2022 that would be a minor-pro version of the AHL for football.

This is the same Rod Pedersen who said that MLSE was buying CFL so that they could play a 2020 season. Dude blows hot air.

[Acajack]

I wonder if in the future we won't see the CPL grow to the point where its crowds make it more logical and less cartoonish for them to play in CFL-sized stadiums.

Don't get me wrong: I don't want to see the demise of the CFL at all. I'd like to see them (CFL and CPL) both thrive and coexist. And if I have to choose between the two, I'll choose the CFL.

But if we're being honest the demise of the CFL (in some way, either collapse or absorption into something new and unrecognizable) is definitely within the realm of possibility right now.

As much as I hate to say it.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by Acajack

There is still a lot of uncertainty.

It's definitely possible that the talks with XFL and The Rock fall apart and nothing becomes of that.

Though if that's the case it's unclear to me what that means for the CFL.

Will it still muddle through as it always has or will its ability to operate be seriously compromised?

Again, we're not privy to the nitty-gritty details beyond the fact that the situation is not very good.

If the CFL falls apart or even becomes an AHL-style farm league, it kinda sucks for cities like Regina and Winnipeg that recently spent hundreds of millions on shiny stadiums for a product expected to draw around 30,000 people fairly consistently. (Though who knows? Perhaps crowds would still be good for a radically different gridiron product there? I doubt it, but anything is possible.)

Toronto has everything to make an NFL team work if we're being honest, EXCEPT (and it's a big IF) it has no stadium and it's hard to imagine someone paying a couple of billion for that PLUS a couple of billion for the franchise. Stranger things have happened but it still seems unlikely. Toronto already has the SkyDome for large concerts and other events, so aside from 8-9 NFL games a year, what other events could a 70,000-seat stadium be used for in that city?

I've said before that a revved-up CFL is the best (and probably only) option for pro gridiron football in Canada, but seems like not enough Canadians are on board for that.

So the options before us right now are a) a semi-moribund CFL like the status quo, b) a lower level farm league of sorts run by the XFL or c) no pro gridiron football at all in the short term and likely the medium term too.

Coupled with lots of watching the NFL on TV, of course, augmented by occasional trips across the border to catch games live. (Fairly regular for a tiny number of people, once-in-a-lifetime bucket list trips for many others.)

I was (and still am) looking forward to catching a couple of Redblacks games as soon as they start up again. Family commitments don't allow me to have season tickets but I try to attend two (sometimes 3) games a year. We'll see how that goes.

The reality is that there is a proven market for pro football in Canada. Between that and the fact that there are existing venues ready to be had, that basically guarantees that there will be some kind of pro football played in Canada. I suppose the big question is what form will it take and how much fan interest would it generate.

For all its flaws, the CFL does have a largely national major league presence in Canada. I get that it might not be that prominent in certain parts of Canada, but that's no different than the NHL where people barely notice it in US regions without teams. You can't argue that the CFL has significant presence in Canada. If the CFL shrinks dramatically then I suppose it starts to look a bit more like the CPL. Smaller venues, less money, less exposure, etc. But whether it's a Canadian league or an American outfit like the XFL expanding here, you can bet there will be a league because there's money to be made. It would just be smaller-time than the CFL as it currently stands.

Obviously losing the CFL as we know it would be a hit to Regina and Winnipeg which are still paying for new venues... the stadiums would still get used, but not really to their full potential. A "new" smaller CFL might draw, let's say, 10,000 fans a game around here vs. the much larger crowds the current teams get, but it's not like the stadiums would sit empty. The other teams would continue to use the venues too, and might even get a bit of a bump in fan support. But even if the CFL survives this episode and remains intact, it could be a death blow to any prospect for a new stadium in Calgary because of the high risk involved with such a project.

[savevp]

Let's be honest, the CFL has been subconsciously embracing the terrible mantle of NFL-lite for some time now. The ball design was changed to match the American standard because the American QB's of the league didn't like the Canadian ball. Which of course was made by an American company anyway.

As are the uniforms. And the constant TSN anecdotes about which colleges player went to, and the great 'rowtes' they run on the field.

The CFL may be Canadian but the game is hardly Canadian. The Grey Cup is the one really, truly Canadian aspect.

At best, some creative thinking from the Rock and all them might help the CFL innovate away from the slow, stop-start nature of gridiron that has driven fans to soccer and somewhat to rugby in the big cities. If they want ideas, I'm sure many of us have. I once wrote them offering some suggestions but didn't receive a reply, which is perfectly fair, but I hope someone read it.

Fixing the CFL needn't entail selling out to American interests any further, it should entail fixing the game itself. Or it will just be perceived as a worse NFL with some quirky rules.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I wonder if in the future we won't see the CPL grow to the point where its crowds make it more logical and less cartoonish for them to play in CFL-sized stadiums.

Don't get me wrong: I don't want to see the demise of the CFL at all. I'd like to see them (CFL and CPL) both thrive and coexist. And if I have to choose between the two, I'll choose the CFL.

But if we're being honest the demise of the CFL (in some way, either collapse or absorption into something new and unrecognizable) is definitely within the realm of possibility right now.

As much as I hate to say it.

If the CFL dies or shrinks into a semi-pro league, then I could certainly see the CPL filling the vacuum of summer sports that would exist in CFL cities except for Toronto where obviously the Jays keep sports fans busy for those months.

I would think in Winnipeg specifically there would be some pressure to find a way to fill IG Field with fans to help pay it down and keep it from becoming a financial millstone around the neck of government.