Highrise VS Heritage

[Architype]

Highrise Vs Heritage

There is a proposal to build an 11 story hotel on the St. John's NL waterfront. If this is to be 11 trories, what type of design would you see as fitting in? There are already two highrise office buildings on this same corner. Would you be in favour of such a building. Since St. John's has serious heritage concerns, I am posting it here.

The city has received an application from Southwest Properties - which recently finished the redevelopment of Atlantic Place - to construct an 11-storey, four-star hotel at the corner of Water and Prescott streets, featuring 150 suites, a restaurant, meeting rooms, health centre with a swimming pool and underground parking for 100 vehicles.

To approve the construction, city council would have to make major changes to the height and density allowances for that area - resulting in big problems when it comes to preserving the heritage of the area, said Duff.

However, the zone allows a maximum height of 15 metres and a maximum floor area ratio of three. Because of the slope of the site, council can allow additional height and a floor area ratio of four on the Harbour Drive side.

Full Article here; check out the comments:
http://www.thetelegram.com/index.cfm?sid=153665&sc=82


I guess it would be where the red outline is, and maybe about that height:

credit: my photo

[MrChills]

Heritage highrise

Grow up St. John's. Grow up!!!

[kwajo]

I voted for a modern design, but a lot of it depends on how it would look, as I don't think many of the newer building designs in downtown St. John's have aged very well.

[HomeInMyShoes]

Is it on the SouthWestish corner of Water and Prescott?

It would either be just left of the white building here or a bit further to the right across the street.


photo by me (doubleaphotoalbum on flickr)

If it's on thhe SouthWest corner there's almost zero heritage view issues for the structure as it would be about the exact same height as the other two existing midrises. At that point it's all about the form of the building. Either modern or heritage could work well or not. There's both good and bad design examples from many cities in those two streams. I would lean towards heritage, but only slightly and tomorrow I'd probably change my mind.

[kwajo]

Originally Posted by HomeInMyShoes

Is it on the SouthWestish corner of Water and Prescott?

It would either be just left of the white building here or a bit further to the right across the street.


photo by me (doubleaphotoalbum on flickr)

If it's on thhe SouthWest corner there's almost zero heritage view issues for the structure as it would be about the exact same height as the other two existing midrises. At that point it's all about the form of the building. Either modern or heritage could work well or not. There's both good and bad design examples from many cities in those two streams. I would lean towards heritage, but only slightly and tomorrow I'd probably change my mind.

For those who have been there, this proposal would be filling in the empty lot across Prescott from the Fortis Tower, correct?


Heritage mid/high-rises quite often end up looking really cheesy if they aren't well designed, which is why I think a purely modern design would be better for the character of the city's skyline.

[Helladog]

Originally Posted by kwajo

For those who have been there, this proposal would be filling in the empty lot across Prescott from the Fortis Tower, correct?


Heritage mid/high-rises quite often end up looking really cheesy if they aren't well designed, which is why I think a purely modern design would be better for the character of the city's skyline.

Make it big and loud, like a Newfoundlander. Just kidding.

Make it big and as ugly as it needs to be to do the job.

[Architype]

Originally Posted by HomeInMyShoes

Is it on the SouthWestish corner of Water and Prescott?

It would either be just left of the white building here or a bit further to the right across the street.


photo by me (doubleaphotoalbum on flickr)

If it's on the SouthWest corner there's almost zero heritage view issues for the structure as it would be about the exact same height as the other two existing midrises. At that point it's all about the form of the building. Either modern or heritage could work well or not. There's both good and bad design examples from many cities in those two streams. I would lean towards heritage, but only slightly and tomorrow I'd probably change my mind.

It's the empty lot actually on the southeast corner, east of the Fortis building (geographically that's actually East on the map). In that view it would be just to the right of, and partly in front of the TD (red brick) building. The site borders Prescott to the west, Water St to the North, and the waterfront area on the south.

In the newspaper article (link below) there is a picture of Shannie Duff (councillor and heritage advocate) standing in front of the lot. The comments in the Telegram were interesting, with many people supporting the proposal.
http://www.thetelegram.com/index.cfm?sid=153665&sc=82

A lot depends on the design. I like modern, but because St. John's is a special case, I think a building that reflects historical design from the turn of the century would be appropriate if it is done well. I can see a building with brick and something like a two or three storey mansard at the top, a bit like the Steele proposal. In terms of site context, it should compliment the TD and Fortis buildings, and the historical buildings, as well as blend in with the streetscape on the lower levels. At any rate, it should be a landmark because of its visibility. That's a tall order for any architect.

The only reason St. John's does not already have large buildings from that era (turn of the century) is because no one could afford to build them. If they had put up an 11 storey building in 1900, what would it have looked like? That would be my approach.

Are there any good examples of new construction in Halifax that might fit in here?

Here's a map showing the site; I think there is a right of way where Harbour Drive could be extended:

[PostModernPrometheus]

Originally Posted by HomeInMyShoes

Is it on the SouthWestish corner of Water and Prescott?

It would either be just left of the white building here or a bit further to the right across the street.


photo by me (doubleaphotoalbum on flickr)

.

I've always thought that part of the appeal of the east end of the waterfront right to the battery village is the traditional types of buildings - you just don't see anything like that anywhere else....; 5-7 stories (with a fully modern take on the heritage style perhaps) would fit in nicely IMO . . . 11 stories? - i dunno...seems like it may be a little out of place there & I imagine there will be a lot of opposition against a taller structure in terms of obstructing views of the harbour, ets, etc....

leave the high rises to anywhere west of prescott st.....

[PostModernPrometheus]

Originally Posted by kwajo

For those who have been there, this proposal would be filling in the empty lot across Prescott from the Fortis Tower, correct?

Yeah....it's the lot just east & across the street from the Fortis Building ... (directly across from the old Siren's Gentleman's Cabaret....)

[Architype]

Originally Posted by PostModernPrometheus

I've always thought that part of the appeal of the east end of the waterfront right to the battery village is the traditional types of buildings - you just don't see anything like that anywhere else....; 5-7 stories (with a fully modern take on the heritage style perhaps) would fit in nicely IMO . . . 11 stories? - i dunno...seems like it may be a little out of place there & I imagine there will be a lot of opposition against a taller structure in terms of obstructing views of the harbour, ets, etc....

leave the high rises to anywhere west of prescott st.....

It's a fair assumption, judging from the past, that the result will be a compromise, perhaps around 6 to 8 stories. This site is quite a distance from the Battery Village (about 1 km), with industrial type waterfront land to the east. There will no doubt be a petition against it with thousands of names.

[Wishblade]

Originally Posted by Architype

It's a fair assumption, judging from the past, that the result will be a compromise, perhaps around 6 to 8 stories. This site is quite a distance from the Battery Village (about 1 km), with industrial type waterfront land to the east. There will no doubt be a petition against it with thousands of names.

11 stories is so short to begin with. It would be rediculous to make it any shorter because of all things, height, which this really doesn't have much of to begin with.

[Architype]

Originally Posted by Wishblade

11 stories is so short to begin with. It would be rediculous to make it any shorter because of all things, height, which this really doesn't have much of to begin with.

11 stories would disappear in downtown Halifax and many other cities, but on the St John's waterfront it would be prominent. I agree though in Canadian context it wouldn't be a big deal in most other places, and it's not very tall, probably about 40 m.

[Smevo]

I say Modern Highrise because faux-heritage highrises tend to get cheaped-out on with the exterior materials and usually end up looking cheesy. That said, I think (judging solely from the photos) that both a modern highrise and a well done faux-heritage highrise would fit in well there.

[Architype]

Posted by Nuks in the St.John's thread:

Originally Posted by Nuks

Here's a render of the hotel proposal:




Click for bigger image

Thanks for the render. It looks low keyed and designed to fit in unobtrusively; and not a "landmark" type of building. Maybe this would look ok. I think it would be interesting to have a small tower on one of the the corners to reflect turn of the century St. John's architecture and make it more of a landmark.

[PostModernPrometheus]

Originally Posted by Wishblade

11 stories is so short to begin with. It would be rediculous to make it any shorter because of all things, height, which this really doesn't have much of to begin with.

It's all relative, and it really depends where you put an 11 story building and the surrounding context . . . . true, 11 stories on spring garden road would be nothing, but 11 stories on the top of citadel hill, for example, would look ridiculous.

For this part of st john's, 11 stories will be very prominent; it's not just the skyline that changes, it's the character and uniqueness of the area. the area east of prescott, from the water, is very unique; the choice to either preserve that character or start transforming it into another interchangeable waterfront skyline is a critical one...whatever ends up going there, i would hope that a fair amount of debate and thought goes into it; taller and bigger doesn't necessarily mean better.

[Wishblade]

Originally Posted by PostModernPrometheus

It's all relative, and it really depends where you put an 11 story building and the surrounding context . . . . true, 11 stories on spring garden road would be nothing, but 11 stories on the top of citadel hill, for example, would look ridiculous.

For this part of st john's, 11 stories will be very prominent; it's not just the skyline that changes, it's the character and uniqueness of the area. the area east of prescott, from the water, is very unique; the choice to either preserve that character or start transforming it into another interchangeable waterfront skyline is a critical one...whatever ends up going there, i would hope that a fair amount of debate and thought goes into it; taller and bigger doesn't necessarily mean better.

I do agree, though we are talking about an empty lot here.

As you probably know, Halifax has had the same issues with certain developments, but if you have a good mix of old and new, it works wonderfully. I think people here have embraced change and understand that new development downtown is needed. Like you said though, good thought has to go into this to do it right.

[Architype]

The developer has stated that they can't make a development economically feasible there within the 15 m guidelines. I think council put these restrictions in place to ensure that they have no obligation to approve larger (taller) projects, but they can then consider making exceptions to the rule. The principle of re-using existing heritage structures is a good one but there clearly isn't enough large building stock downtown SJ's to meet future demands.

It is hard to tell from the rendering but the building looks like if it is done well enough it might look good and actually fit in. The building form couldn't have been any more basic however and that may detract from it. It might end up being boring at worse.

[Architype]

There is more news on this proposal:
http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/show...&postcount=205

[PostModernPrometheus]

Originally Posted by Architype

There is more news on this proposal:
http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/show...&postcount=205

I know i'm in the minority when I say I think that 11 stories at that location is too much (call me old fashioned i like the idea of high rises west of prescott, 5-7 stories max to the east), but I'm VERY surprised that none of the council members supports the 11 story proposal. . .

[MonctonRad]

I'm generally pretty gung ho on development but in this case, I'm not so sure. The St. John's waterfront district is so unique in a North American context that I think new development should be done with great care. As PostModernPromethius has stated, perhaps new highrises should be restricted to the west of Prescott Street.

I have been to St. John's and it is a delightful city. If it were not quite so isolated on the edge of the continent, I could envisage living there.