Tucson Development Thread

[builtittall]

Originally Posted by rpf

I understand and agree with your assessment that streetcar expansions need to be faster than the initial 4-mile line opening this year. But I think using the same vehicles and station/power infrastructure throughout the system could save a significant amount of money and provide comparable speed, if the system expansions were done in a dedicated ROW. Consider this: Most urban rail systems rarely come close to their vehicles' top speeds during normal operations; if they do it's between very widely-spaced stops in grade-separated ROW. As the chart below shows, most North American urban rail systems average between about 20-25 MPH:



Tucson's streetcar vehicle has a top speed of 44 MPH and an acceleration/deceleration rate of 3 MPH per second. If the expansions to the system were compatible with the existing streetcar vehicles but built more to light rail specs (1-2 miles between stops, dedicated ROW) it could average about 30 MPH with stations a mile apart, and 36 MPH with stations 2 miles apart (these numbers account for a 20 second dwell time at each station). Even considering that other factors would slow things down somewhat, this would be on par with other cities' mass transit systems, and much, much faster than the initial streetcar line and our bus system.

Consider also that light rail trains are larger than streetcars, more expensive to buy, and cost more to operate per mile; we could afford to buy and run more trains, resulting in more frequent service for the same price, and more frequent service means shorter trip times and higher ridership. Many light rail systems in the U.S. have had budget cuts that have led to headways as long as 30 minutes between trains at off-peak times. What good is a fast train if you have to wait so long for it?

I am very concerned about plans to expand the system if it is all designed like the first 4 miles, because that would average closer to 7-8 MPH. But I think using the same vehicles in dedicated ROW could be a smart move.

I agree with your breakdown, but I am addressing maximum speed not average speed. Most if not all of the systems you addressed are using a LRV system with much higher max speeds.

The roads that most of the extensions would travel on have a speed limit of 40-45 mph. Most transit systems are not run at maximum speeds so you can expect the streetcar to be traveling at a 5-7 mph slower rate. The issue becomes that we are building a system that cannot even strive for faster average speeds.

The core city would be well served by ROW streetcars, but once you expand out to the airport, Park Mall, and Tucson Mall, you are getting an inferior product. A two modal system (streetcar and LRV) like Portland and Seattle is much more complimentary and effective than running streetcars long distances.

[farmerk]

builtitall and rfp , thanks for posting and presenting your informative conversation. Personally, I'd like to limit Tucson's streetcar to the current 4 mile route between downtown and UA. Outside that route , I'd prefer light rail (own dedicated lane) .

I missed the fact that Farley's map is ALL streetcar - waste of $$$...might as well take the bus.

Tucson's streetcar has done wonders attracting business investments along it's route. Light rail all over Tucson (including to DM base as suggested by Locofresh55) will be the key to further investments all over Tucson. Looking forward to replacing the strip mall architecture of Tucson with at least 5 floor buildings.

Airport-downtown-Oracle and downtown-6th st-East Broadway would be a good start for a light rail, IMHO .

[Patrick S]

I think for a larger system Light Rail is the best idea. I completely agree that DMAFB needs to be part of the plan. A few years ago I proposed a route down Aviation Hwy. to the base. Some of the routes in the 2013 plan are very similar to routes I came up with a few years ago (north to Tucson Mall and south to the Bio-Science Park and TIA). I didn't think about a route out to the Sabino Canyon area, but that's a good idea. I think I had one going out to PCC East, but pretty sure it was much different than the one proposed. I'm actually intrigued by that one on this map, since it appears to go down Camino Seco south of Golf Links. I live right off Camino Seco, just south of Escalante. It's a 2 lane road and in horrible shape. Would need major upgrades for a rail link.

[Patrick S]

Lots of interesting articles on the Inside Tucson Business website:

High-tech coating company bringing U.S. HQ to Marana; 30 jobs planned

Tucson hoping to win Tesla battery plant sweepstakes

All of Tucson metro would benefit from Tesla, town leaders say

[Patrick S]

From yesterday's (3/18/14) city council meeting. An update on the 5th & Congress Project. The proposed building would be 8 stories tall. The 1st floor would be the hotel lobby and commercial space. Floors 2-5 would be a parking garage. Floors 6-8 would be a 147 room boutique hotel, 3 restaurants, and 9,750 square feet of neighborhood retail.

http://www.tucsonaz.gov/sirepub/cach...4073731460.PDF

[Thirsty]

Originally Posted by builtittall

I agree with your breakdown, but I am addressing maximum speed not average speed. Most if not all of the systems you addressed are using a LRV system with much higher max speeds.

The roads that most of the extensions would travel on have a speed limit of 40-45 mph. Most transit systems are not run at maximum speeds so you can expect the streetcar to be traveling at a 5-7 mph slower rate. The issue becomes that we are building a system that cannot even strive for faster average speeds.

The core city would be well served by ROW streetcars, but once you expand out to the airport, Park Mall, and Tucson Mall, you are getting an inferior product. A two modal system (streetcar and LRV) like Portland and Seattle is much more complimentary and effective than running streetcars long distances.

I believe you missed the point of rpf's post. As I read it, the suggestion was a two modal system using the current cars on both to save cost. Unless you're talking about grade-separation, LRT would operate below 45 mph anyhow. For example, the LRT in Phoenix can cruise ~60, but the system speed limit is 35. (a possible exception is the stretch of desert between Tempe/PHX where it does not intersect surface streets)


Otherwise I agree with everyone's disappointment that anyone would be pushing a suburban trolley plan. This is the kind of junk that fuels the anti-transit crowd.

[builtittall]

Originally Posted by Thirsty

I believe you missed the point of rpf's post. As I read it, the suggestion was a two modal system using the current cars on both to save cost. Unless you're talking about grade-separation, LRT would operate below 45 mph anyhow. For example, the LRT in Phoenix can cruise ~60, but the system speed limit is 35. (a possible exception is the stretch of desert between Tempe/PHX where it does not intersect surface streets)


Otherwise I agree with everyone's disappointment that anyone would be pushing a suburban trolley plan. This is the kind of junk that fuels the anti-transit crowd.

If that is what rpf meant, then I did miss his point. I am not sure I fully understand what you mean by "using the current cars on both to save cost".

As far as speed is concerned, I am not 100% positive how Phoenix runs their system, but most systems in the US that run in dedicated ROW at grade are restricted to a roads speed limit. The system build out shown previously, has lines running in roads with speed limits above 40 mph. Broadway for example has a speed limit above 40 after Country Club. With streetcars, running a system above 40 is quite a burden for mechanical systems and most transit agencies will avoid this due to wear and tear. 45 mph is definitely out of the question.

My main concern is that Farley is trying to "piggy-back" a suburban streetcar system onto the current line because the infrastructure is built and it would be easier to pass the conservative anti-transit policy agenda in Tucson. I am very grateful for the effort Farley has put into the current line, but building rail for the sake of rail is really a waste of money and our very small transit voice. We need to push the correct system for the large suburban nature of our city.

Btw, I am in no means bashing the current streetcar construction. From a development standpoint, I think the streetcar saved/sparked downtown Tucson and it will provide a great "established" transit connection between two large employment centers.

[ProfessorMole]

Originally Posted by Patrick S

From yesterday's (3/18/14) city council meeting. An update on the 5th & Congress Project. The proposed building would be 8 stories tall. The 1st floor would be the hotel lobby and commercial space. Floors 2-5 would be a parking garage. Floors 6-8 would be a 147 room boutique hotel, 3 restaurants, and 9,750 square feet of neighborhood retail.

http://www.tucsonaz.gov/sirepub/cach...4073731460.PDF

Item 15 on the agenda was also the approvals to finalize the sale of that piece of property directly North of Hub Apartments on Tyndall to Core Campus.

March 18th Agenda

[rpf]

Originally Posted by builtittall

If that is what rpf meant, then I did miss his point. I am not sure I fully understand what you mean by "using the current cars on both to save cost".

As far as speed is concerned, I am not 100% positive how Phoenix runs their system, but most systems in the US that run in dedicated ROW at grade are restricted to a roads speed limit. The system build out shown previously, has lines running in roads with speed limits above 40 mph. Broadway for example has a speed limit above 40 after Country Club. With streetcars, running a system above 40 is quite a burden for mechanical systems and most transit agencies will avoid this due to wear and tear. 45 mph is definitely out of the question.

Sorry if I wasn't clear. The savings and greater flexibility would come mostly from not having multiple classes of vehicles to maintain, and the fact that streetcars, generally speaking, are cheaper to purchase and operate than LRT vehicles. Also, higher top speeds provide diminishing returns in terms of system performance because of speed limits and the fact that you can only accelerate and decelerate so quickly between stops without throwing passengers around.

The "Rapid Streetcar" concept isn't new but it has been getting more attention lately as a way to provide a quality of service that is very close to full LRT for much lower cost. I think we are all aware that Tucson doesn't have a few billion dollars burning a hole in its pocket, so if we are ever to get anything resembling a citywide system it will need to be economical. Because of our limited resources, the other mode the city has been studying is bus rapid transit. In my experience (Orange Line in LA, Silver Line in Boston), BRT can be reliable and fast enough, but it loses many important benefits of rail. It's loud, bumpy and shaky, and cramped. It also isn't as successful at spurring development.

[Thirsty]

Originally Posted by rpf

Sorry if I wasn't clear. The savings and greater flexibility would come mostly from not having multiple classes of vehicles to maintain, and the fact that streetcars, generally speaking, are cheaper to purchase and operate than LRT vehicles. Also, higher top speeds provide diminishing returns in terms of system performance because of speed limits and the fact that you can only accelerate and decelerate so quickly between stops without throwing passengers around.

The "Rapid Streetcar" concept isn't new but it has been getting more attention lately as a way to provide a quality of service that is very close to full LRT for much lower cost. I think we are all aware that Tucson doesn't have a few billion dollars burning a hole in its pocket, so if we are ever to get anything resembling a citywide system it will need to be economical. Because of our limited resources, the other mode the city has been studying is bus rapid transit. In my experience (Orange Line in LA, Silver Line in Boston), BRT can be reliable and fast enough, but it loses many important benefits of rail. It's loud, bumpy and shaky, and cramped. It also isn't as successful at spurring development.

Now that you mention it, I went back to look at the route map and see on the Broadway leg and the Airport leg, with an exception or two, the stops are at 1.5-2 mile spacing. These are much more practical than was my knee-jerk reaction, and I suppose a "rapid streetcar" is what is planned for those two directions.

At least I hope. If there is not a dedicated center lane right of way for the entire system we're back to "suburban trolley" or billion $ bus.

Builtittall is probably right that they can't be run at full speed all the time, but by the time these new lines are built, hopefully there is an option to retrofit our half dozen or so existing cars to bring them up to speed with the faster models.

[Qwijib0]

Originally Posted by rpf

I think those are all reasonable routes, although I think there was hope that El Con would evolve into something more transit friendly, instead of a collection of big box stores. A Broadway line needs to go further east to really make sense. What concerns me is that there was no dedicated right-of-way planned for any of it. No one is going to ride 5+ miles on the streetcar at 8 MPH unless they are already bus riders. The existing line only makes any sense because there are a lot of jobs, homes, and attractions within a mile or two of each other along it. A longer system has to have its own right-of-way or else it will just take too long to get anywhere.

Broadway has bus lanes from country club eastward, so there is already dedicated ROW for transit.

[farmerk]

Since we're in the topic of railways ....

Tell ADOT what you think about Tucson-Phoenix high-speed rail

Looks like Arizona is still serious about high speed rail between Tucson and Phoenix.

[rpf]

Originally Posted by Qwijib0

Broadway has bus lanes from country club eastward, so there is already dedicated ROW for transit.

There's also a good chance that the widening of Broadway between Euclid and Country Club will have dedicated transit lanes as well, so there's hope yet

[Patrick S]

Originally Posted by rpf

There's also a good chance that the widening of Broadway between Euclid and Country Club will have dedicated transit lanes as well, so there's hope yet

I'm pretty sure that's a requirement for that segment when it's widened. I've always read that it will be for BRT with the possibility of using it for light-rail in the future.

[andrewsaturn]

With the current streetcar route I was concerned that it was just going to be a bus on rails. But I was pleasantly surprised to find out that the route on Broadway in downtown has its own right of way lane. So it's not completely like a bus! I think that when it expands beyond downtown, we have a good chance for proposals to change so that the streetcar can have its own ROW. It is early and expansion probably won't be until several years from now.

[andrewsaturn]

Oh and I really think they should do the rail extension to the airport first. If you think about it Tucson's main attraction is the uofa and the things that happen around it like the festival of books. So basically we could have that direct link from airport to downtown hotel to uofa campus. Also, it could really help spur development for the bioscience park.

[farmerk]

Another reason Arizona really really wants Tesla's gigafactory :

"This week, one legislative committee took a step to change that ( 2000 state law prohibits Tesla Motors and other auto companies from selling directly to consumers without a dealer ). The state senate’s Committee on Commerce, Energy and Military Affairs voted 3-2 for a strike-all amendment that would allow manufacturers who make only electric cars — i.e. Tesla — to sell them directly to consumers in Arizona."

"Beyond the legislative proposal, all nine U.S. representatives from Arizona signed a letter to Tesla this week encouraging the company to pick Arizona. U.S. Rep. Ron Barber, who signed that letter, also sent another one encouraging the company to pick Southern Arizona."

source

Also from this same source, "... that vast majorities in the Tucson area support the military installations here even with aircraft noise" . I like to see several scientific surveys from a reputable pollster regarding Tucson's view with growth and business. Does Tucson want to urbanize? Does it want light rail and a crosstown freeway? Does it think that the politicos at city hall are easily spooked and influenced by a handful of fanatics?

[InTheBurbs]

It looks like the AC Marriott at 5th and Broadway is a step closer to being approved, with the space above the MLK garage being used as event/market space.

From today's Inside Tucson Business:

"Scott Stiteler’s Fifth and Congress Project – a 147-room AC Marriott hotel, a 200-space parking garage, three restaurants and close to 10,000 square feet of retail — could snag a property tax exemption, an $8 million city-facilitated federal loan, site-specific sales tax incentives and other “by right” incentives for his $45 million venture, which should be completely built out by late 2016.

The city council approved the next step in the economic incentives process, an independent economic analysis of the project, at its meeting this week.

Stiteler also plans to make use of the site above the MLK parking garage with a flexible marketplace of temporary structures called Menu. Patterned after the two-block PROXY in San Francisco, Menu would house food, art, retail and events in temporary structures. This is not part of the incentive application, but would open around the same time."

[Patrick S]

Tucson strikes annexation deal for proposed Southside shopping plaza

The city of Tucson is prepared to annex a pocket of land at Kolb and Valencia roads that could eventually bring a rush of retail into a part of the Southside that has been largely industrial and residential.

There’s no clear timeline yet for developers’ visions, a large shopping center that could put more than 1.3 million square feet of shop space on the roughly 160 acres of raw land between the Port of Tucson and the Boneyard at Davis-Monthan Air Force Base. That depends on potential road improvements in the area.

The Tucson City Council agreed to a pre-annexation and development agreement at Tuesday’s meeting.

Developer Mike Farley said he can’t say much until the Regional Transportation Authority has taken action on whether to realign Valencia Road. The RTA will present an update on the project in late April.

“We’re not talking to anybody now and I won’t be, won’t even make an effort until that road decision is finalized,” Farley said.

Thus, development is not necessarily imminent; actual development may not be for years, the city said.

But based on a hypothetical timeline of construction starting this year and the first shop opening in 2015, with one new business coming online every other month through 2022, the project could be worth a cumulative $37.7 million in tax revenues over a 10-year period, mostly in retail sales taxes.

The Kolb-Valencia intersection has been contentious. Farley sued Pima County last year for breach of contract over a planned realignment of the congested intersection, which started with the county and is now in the hands of the Regional Transportation Authority. Farley contended the county backed away from the new road in an act of political retribution. The county denied the assertion.

There are currently no large retail shopping centers within a three-mile radius of the Kolb and Valencia intersection. The immediate area is industrial, but dense residential neighborhoods, built within the last 10 or so years, are within three miles of the site’s southwest and southeast corners.

Farley said the property was in escrow with a big California retail developer in 2007, but then the recession strangled the real estate market. He said he doesn’t know when retailers will come back, but somebody was interested at one time.

Chris Kaselemis, director of the city’s Economic Initiatives program, said the city has talked with Farley about annexation off and on for years. With annexation, the owner will be in a better position to market the property, he said.

City staff will gather necessary property owner signatures and return to the council with a proposed ordinance to approve the annexation at a later date.

The city says it prefers to annex land before it’s been developed because that makes it easier to gather the needed signatures, typically only one. After a development has been built out, at least half of the property owners representing at least half of the assessed value of the property must sign the petition.

[cdsuofa]

Originally Posted by builtittall

Long time reader, first time poster.

I think Tucson would be heading the wrong direction if they tried to expand the streetcar as shown on the map. The current streetcar stock purchased by the city has a max speed of around 40-43 mph. That is the max speed, so typical running speeds will be lucky to reach the high 30's. For small distances in dense neighborhoods, streetcars are the best answers. For large cross town travel, Tucson should be much more focused on light rail. Light rail trains have a max speed of 60 mph which would be much more efficient and require a dedicated ROW.

The argument for using streetcars because the infrastructure is already in place should not be considered. Why pay for a system build-out that is inefficient?

I can think of 1 or 2 small routes that could be added to the streetcar mainly south campus around the sports venues and possibly connecting that area with the route ending at UMC. Other than that the light rail was meant just to connect campus and downtown and that's all it should do. Now a light Rail System which is obviously completely different as far as speed, capacity, size etcetcetc is a good idea. From what Ive read on a couple Tucson sites the Broadway rd west of Campbell Improvements are to include extra space for a light rail system so it seems clear the city has its construction in our relative future it is clearly going to be built eventually but i wouldnt expect any type of system that can get people places running before 2020 but It will be constructed IMO. I like the idea of starting it off from downtown to Park Place mall and have that operational well before any other routes are started to use as almost a guide for the rest of the routes. They could learn how best to handle intersections, where stops should be located(distance from stoplights and things like that, not popularity wise) and even other design features. That would be how I would go about doing it, get that route done wellll before other projects are started, it can even be mixed in with the Broadway improvements and then learn as much as we can from that route to make the rest of the system very efficient. For example I would like to see the lightrail go as unimpeded as possible. What would be the best ways to do this? More importantly what would people be willing to pay for? With Tucson's grid design there is a semi major or major intersection every 1/4 mile... atleast. If u put a line on a major arterial road how often would it be stopping at lights or for turning cars? Would Tucsonan's pay to elevate or lower certain sections? I just want this to be done once and most important the best way possible. If that means waiting 5 extra years for more money than so be it. This will be with our city forever.