Good jobs, affordable housing, and quality of life rarely come in a total package

[gtbassett]

To piggyback on what Shawn has brought up here. Any statement that I've made is simply my personal opinion about where I would like to live. What I've pointed out are the size and density of these metros and also the climate as being major deterrents to me living in these 3 cities mentioned. Just like I find it very understandable that somebody might not want to live in the Bay Area because of the cost of living, or New York because they find it to be too big and overwhelming, I think that size/density and climate are valid points to bring up as to why I would not live somewhere. It's got nothing to do with the people or culture of the Midwest and everything to do with how I prioritize where I live. I prefer a mild climate where the weather is rarely a hindrance. I prefer a larger sized metro with solid density where I can go car free and still get to many places. These cities' problems for me have nothing to do with being too white, or backwards culturally, but everything to do with climate and overall size and due to size, how much they have to offer.

[Steely Dan]

^ i can completely understand all of that.

none of these 3 cities are on my radar screen either, and i already live in, and love living in, the midwest, so that whole aspect has absolutely nothing to do with it. i don't think any of these cities are bad places to live and i'm sure plenty of people who live in them lead very happy, successful, satisfied, fulfilled lives, and that's awesome. but for myself, having been born and raised in one of the nation's largest and most urban cities, i'm more naturally inclined towards cities that register a little bit higher on the urbanism scale. that's not to say that i require the urbansim level of a place like manhattan. i can, and very happily do, get by with A LOT less that that, but i think that a city the size and urbansim scale of a milwaukee is about as small as i would want to go.

for now, i see myself most likely dying within 10 miles of where i was born on the northside of chicago. all of my family and friends live here, so i'm probably a lifer (unless life throws me some real curve balls).

the problem with every other city on the planet that isn't chicago is that they aren't chicago. that will forever be their most singular flaw.

[maru2501]

chicago has about as much in common with des moines as NYC does with some city in new hampshire, but whatever

[Steely Dan]

Originally Posted by maru2501

chicago has about as much in common with des moines as NYC does with some city in new hampshire, but whatever

the comparative distances (as the crow flies) are fun to play with:


chicago to des moines is ~310 miles.

that's roughly the same distance as NYC to pittsburgh.



chicago to omaha is ~450 miles.

that's roughly the same distance as NYC to columbus.



chicago to oklahoma city is ~700 miles.

that's that's roughly the same distance as NYC to chicago!

[jtown,man]

Originally Posted by destroycreate

Yeah, it's way too "Apple Pie America" for my tastes (very white, very Republican). Also, I feel like it's a very different job market than what I'm used to. I don't want Merrill Lynch to be as good as it gets.

Imagine if someone said I don't like an area because its "very black." Stop being racist.

[Austinlee]

Originally Posted by Steely Dan

Generally speaking, "quality of life" in these kinds of exercises is typically just code for not too much chronic urban poverty and the universe of social dysfunction that it breeds.

wow

[CentralGrad258]

So I'll be a big homer and go ahead and throw Philly in the mix. We have world class food scene and cultural amenities, good public transport (by American standards at least) and you can actually afford to buy a house in a good neighborhood on a middle class salary. The job market is not the best, but it's not terrible and if you're in certain sectors (healthcare, education, law), you'll be in good shape. Our school district is the biggest fly in the ointment for families, but otherwise, it's pretty much all there. Ok the climate is not the greatest either, but at least you're two hours away from beaches and/or mountains.

[subterranean]

Really love the convo that is happening in this thread. Moving from Michigan to Oregon has really been an eye opener to the pros and cons of both the Midwest and coastal living.

I definitely needed a change of scenery, plus I just think most people tend to become very closed off culturally and mentally if they stay in any one place for their entire lives. One thing that has been absolutely shocking is how bad west coasters' geography is when it comes to the Midwest. If I had a dollar for every time someone said something along the lines of..."how's your family doing back in Minnes...Wisconsin...I mean Illinois, you're from Illinois, right?"

For another perspective on the quality of life vs. affordability piece, Detroit is so affordable that if you had the luxury of a telecommutable tech job--hell, probably even if you had a bartending job at an upscale bar in the 'burbs a few days a week, you could literally buy a house for cash and go on vacation every month or two anywhere in the world with the money you'd save. Just sayin', I know that's not possible for most people's situations, but I actually know people who live in BEAUTIFUL old houses who travel more than any people I know and have an amazing quality of life.

[Steely Dan]

Originally Posted by subterranean

I just think most people tend to become very closed off culturally and mentally if they stay in any one place for their entire lives.

would you care to elaborate on that?

i've lived in chicago my whole life (except for college up in the twin cities back in the '90s) and at the ripe old age of 40 i don't feel like i'm particularly closed off mentally or culturally.

[subterranean]

Originally Posted by Steely Dan

would you care to elaborate on that?

i've lived in chicago my whole life (except for college up in the twin cities back in the '90s) and at the ripe old age of 40 i don't feel like i'm particularly closed off mentally or culturally.

I would say you're probably the exception, along with most people who have an interest in cities and cultures and geographies in general. By their very nature, these people (including many in this forum) have an appetite for these things and they seek them out to consume knowledge about them. Why else would anyone be on this site, save for trolls. But this forum is not the norm. I have seen some examples of this type of ignorance on the forum, though, such as west coasters who couldn't possibly fathom how people in the Midwest could live in a 4-season climate, much less by choice and thoroughly enjoy it.

Other forms of ignorance for example, in my experiences: many Portlanders that I've come across think that Portland is the center of the Universe. I found a similar mentality when I was going to school in the People's Republic of Ann Arbor. When your quality of life is pretty good, there's a tendency to think other places must just suck, or at least couldn't possibly be as good as where you live.

When I tell people metro Detroit has more people than the entire State of Oregon, for example, people are shocked to the point of having to Google it. When people ask about how bombed out Detroit is, how much abandonment there is, how much it must suck, and I tell them it still has a higher population density than Portland, they just flat out don't believe me. When I talk about the Great Lakes and how majestic they are, and that I think some portions of them rival the beauty of the Oregon coast, once again, they have no concept of this whatsoever. They don't think of the lakes as a network of inland freshwater seas and think that you can see across them so it's "not the same". I proceed to show photos and they are shocked.

I remember once that one of the morning TV talk shows made a call for votes for the most beautiful place in America and for people to go online to vote. Sure, this is inherently flawed by people who are proud who go on to vote, but it's poignant. When Sleeping Bear National Lakeshore won, they talked about it for a few minutes seemingly in major disbelief, then proceeded to do a long segment on Point Reyes, California almost as if they had prepared for Point Reyes to win.

Hell, most people out here know virtually nothing about the craft beer scene in Michigan when it is routinely ranked a top-5 state.

In the reverse, folks back home think it must downpour rain in Portland every hour, every day, every month of the year. Heck, most of the people I know back home still pronounce the dang name Or-a-GON.

These are just small examples of so many more I could share, but they nevertheless illustrate a sort of tunnel vision.

[pdxtex]

Originally Posted by mhays

Quality of life?! According to who?

Can you live well without a car? What sort of overseas air connections are available? Are the sidewalks full? How's the downtown shopping?

quality of life = likelihood of dying by gun death is low.

[SD_Phil]

Originally Posted by pdxtex

quality of life = likelihood of dying by gun death is low.

What is your yardstick? US stats?

Cause of Death Odds of Dying
Heart Disease and Cancer 1 in 7

Chronic Lower Respiratory Disease 1 in 27

Intentional Self-harm 1 in 97

Unintentional Poisoning By and
Exposure to Noxious Substances 1 in 103

Motor Vehicle Crash 1 in 113

Fall 1 in 133

Assault by Firearm 1 in 358

Pedestrian Incident 1 in 672

Rest of the list

[pdxtex]

my personal yardstick is flexible. I can deal with urban violence with reasonable precautions. for most people, id say they would rate crime as the single greatest deterrent of a quality life. list like this probably take that into account too.