Michigan Mass Transit Super Thread

[LMich]

Almost there...

I'm interested to see what Hertel comes up with. He could come up with an umbrella authority that keeps SMART and DDOT in place, or the new authority could get rid of the existing agencies, altogether.

Metro transit authority plan expected by April

BY JOHN GALLAGHER • FREE PRESS BUSINESS WRITER • January 29, 2009

Metro Detroit transit czar John Hertel hopes to propose a regional transportation authority structure by April and win approval for it from regional leaders and state legislators soon after that.

Once approved, the regional transit authority would build and operate a transit system for metro Detroit.

But the authority's first job would be to sell tri-county voters on the need for a new transit tax to pay for the proposed 400-mile, $10.5-billion transit system.

"The sooner we can do this, the better," Hertel said Tuesday night at the annual meeting of the group Transportation Riders United.

TRU is a nonprofit citizens organization that advocates for creation of mass transit in metro Detroit.

State lawmakers recently passed legislation allowing the creation of a regional transit authority to create a new mass-transit system for metro Detroit. Now it's up to Hertel, the civic leader chosen by leaders in Detroit and Wayne, Oakland and Macomb counties, to propose a structure for the governing authority.

One natural way to create a regional authority is to pick one board member each for Wayne, Oakland and Macomb counties plus Detroit.

But Hertel said he was examining regional transit authorities from other cities to see if other models offered better ways.

Speaking of the need for a new tax to help pay for the plan, Hertel stressed the long-term economic benefits of a new transit system for the city.

"If you're going to have a mass transit that serves the three counties and Detroit that is a unified system and a modern system, yeah, you're going to have to have some way to raise local funds. There's no doubt about it," he said. "Mass transit is expensive, but it's a lot more expensive not to do it."

Asked for a prediction of whether Detroit would actually get a mass-transit system soon, Hertel said, "I now believe that the chances have passed 50-50, but I'm not telling you it's a sure thing."

Contact JOHN GALLAGHER at 313-222-5173 or gallagher@freepress.com.

[the urban politician]

Great news.

Can any of you kindly post what the nature of the plan is? (sorry guys, too lazy to do the research)

[LMich]

Check out my thread on this in the transportation subforum.

[ginsan2]

Originally Posted by LMich

Almost there...

I'm interested to see what Hertel comes up with. He could come up with an umbrella authority that keeps SMART and DDOT in place, or the new authority could get rid of the existing agencies, altogether.

I just wonder, what type of mass transit? I want more than buses.

Southeast Michigan really has a remarkable grid in place for mass transit-- between the M's and the "Miles" you have a fantastic square grid. It's superb in how it serves bus, the boulevards (especially Telegraph) that have all the room in the world for light rail, et cetera.

And although I'm sure this is a billion miles from anyone's minds, I'd like to see some sort of cost analysis done on the probability of a subway. Just 'cause I'm a cost nerd and I crave that sort of speculation.

[hudkina]

Detroit doesn't need a subway system. It widened its streets in the early part of the 20th century to make room for streetcars. The Main Avenues are 9 lanes wide. They can easily handle light rail plus two+ lanes of traffic in either direction. That's especially so when you get out in the suburbs with the wide medians. The only place where a subway system might be feasible would be in the immediate downtown area, but it seems that the People Mover, elevated system is the more sensible approach.

[LMich]

Originally Posted by ginsan2

I just wonder, what type of mass transit? I want more than buses.

You haven't heard? The first line will be Woodward Avenue light rail, and there is also an Ann Arbor-Detroit commuter line in the works. There is also the WALLY commuter line that'll connect urban areas in Livingston and Washtenaw counties.

Here, check these out:

- Transportation Riders United

- DTOGS Woodward Light Rail

- WALLY

[ginsan2]

Originally Posted by hudkina

Detroit doesn't need a subway system. It widened its streets in the early part of the 20th century to make room for streetcars. The Main Avenues are 9 lanes wide. They can easily handle light rail plus two+ lanes of traffic in either direction. That's especially so when you get out in the suburbs with the wide medians. The only place where a subway system might be feasible would be in the immediate downtown area, but it seems that the People Mover, elevated system is the more sensible approach.

See, I think that we do. Need a subway, that is. Subways don't have the same air resistance issues, they can achieve much higher speeds due to uninterrupted track (how many freaking lights are there on Ford these days?), and they aren't exposed to the weather. Because frankly, the last time I drove on '96 my neck hurt by the time I got out of the car.

I just like the idea of things being underground; Chicago's rail doesn't seem to have had a good time dealing with winter.

Originally Posted by LMich

You haven't heard? The first line will be Woodward Avenue light rail, and there is also an Ann Arbor-Detroit commuter line in the works. There is also the WALLY commuter line that'll connect urban areas in Livingston and Washtenaw counties.

Here, check these out:

- Transportation Riders United

- DTOGS Woodward Light Rail

- WALLY

Aw, that's adorable, you'll have a line named after a Pixar film

That being said, I want to murder someone for all the hours I've had to sit on '94 going from Detroit and Ann Arbor. I can't even fathom what it would be like to not have to drive that.

[hudkina]

I don't think there is much of a difference time-wise between LRT with its own ROW and a subway. Often times, traffic lights are timed to favor light rail trains. The line that always comes to my mind when picturing what a Woodward LRT system would look like is Boston's Commonwealth Ave line.

[Rizzo]

That being said, I want to murder someone for all the hours I've had to sit on '94 going from Detroit and Ann Arbor. I can't even fathom what it would be like to not have to drive that.

That's not the first time I've heard that. I have many friends who make that commute and tell me their stories. Apparently, it's a huge science, juggling options, dealing with unusual and unpredictable backups. It's like you can't win, no matter what. There's also that ramp from the Lodge to Wb 94 that's closed forever.

[LMich]

I feel the same way about coming from Lansing, though, the traffic is much less an issue. If we ever got the high-speed train between the two, I'd never drive down there again. Yeah, and 94 can be just plain ridiculous. I've learned my lesson about trying to get from Metro by taking 96 to US-23, and then taking it to 94, especially in the morning. I thought it'd save me time since its a shorter distance, but it's only saved me time, once. And US-23 between Livingston and Ann Arbor can be a disaster in the morning. Hopefully, this bodes well for WALLY.

[LMich]

Troy and Birmingham are planning on going in on a centralized intermodal transit center that will be capable of being tied into Detroit's regional mass transit plan. Things just keep moving foward. Also, take note that this is all being done with no help or leadership from the county executive. I always thought he had to be one board to make this work, but regional mass transit is going forward despite him:

Growth platform: Troy, Birmingham race for $7M for transit site

Jennifer Chambers / The Detroit News

February 2, 2009

Troy -- The cities of Troy and Birmingham are racing the clock to finance a multimillion-dollar regional transportation center designed to increase rail travel, provide a regional transfer point for SMART buses and offer taxi and black sedan service.

Both cities have 16 months -- or until June 2010 -- to come up with $7 million to fund construction of a transit center building, a pedestrian tunnel and two platforms on a 3-acre parcel behind Midtown Square shopping plaza near Maple Road and Coolidge Highway.

The new station, called the Troy Intermodal Transit Facility, is envisioned as a hub in a larger regional transit system planned for Metro Detroit, including a commuter rail line from Ann Arbor to Detroit and a proposed light rail line along Woodward Avenue in Detroit to the suburbs of Oakland County.

The transit center, on the Troy side of the railroad tracks, would be built around the existing Amtrak rail line and stop in Birmingham and give passengers centralized access to bus, taxi and limousine services, which could help connect them to the northern suburbs.

Officials from both cities have been working on a transit center project since 2000 when developer Grand Sakwa, under a consent judgment, agreed to donate the land to Troy with the condition it be used for a transit center. The property will revert to Grand Sakwa if the deadline is not met.

In December, Troy and Birmingham agreed to pay the law firm Clark Hill $7,500 a month to lobby state and federal lawmakers for the funds.

City officials hope the transit center is an ideal candidate for funds in the federal economic recovery plan proposed by President Barack Obama. Obama is lobbying for congressional passage of an $825 billion stimulus package.

"We have an excellent chance of receiving funding under the stimulus plan," Birmingham City Planner Jana Ecker said. "We are one of the few packages for transit that is this far along." U.S. Congressman Gary Peters, D-Bloomfield Township, said he is working with state, municipal and business leaders to help gather support to get the project off the ground.

Megan Owens of Transportation Riders United said the success of mass transit demands that people know where to catch a bus or train and where the routes go. Providing a centralized area for people to get information gives them an easy connection to the system, she said.

Plus, rail passengers who already use the Birmingham station would welcome the new amenities, Owens said.

"These types of transit centers can be a boost for redevelopment," Owens said. "You get lots of mixed use and condos and lofts around transit centers."

Bill Cowger of the Troy Chamber of Commerce said the transit center is a small capital expense with a huge potential payoff.

"Other transit proposals require major infrastructure. The primary infrastructure for this project is already there: the railroad. It's a really small investment for a huge leap to make Troy and Birmingham more walkable and eventually connect to the Ann Arbor-Detroit rail," Cowger said. "Once the service is provided, they will come."

City leaders said they plan to hold brainstorming workshops in the spring to get input from the public on the proposal.

You can reach Jennifer Chambers at (248) 647-7402 or jchambers@detnews.com.

[subterranean]

Originally Posted by LMich

I feel the same way about coming from Lansing, though, the traffic is much less an issue. If we ever got the high-speed train between the two, I'd never drive down there again. Yeah, and 94 can be just plain ridiculous. I've learned my lesson about trying to get from Metro by taking 96 to US-23, and then taking it to 94, especially in the morning. I thought it'd save me time since its a shorter distance, but it's only saved me time, once. And US-23 between Livingston and Ann Arbor can be a disaster in the morning. Hopefully, this bodes well for WALLY.

I can vouch for that last part. I commute to Ann Arbor from Lansing two days a week. It used to be a lot more, but thankfully that isn't the case anymore. Trying to get to my 8:30 class in time can definitely be a science. I honestly believe that leaving LATE by thirty minutes gets me there 5 minutes later than I normally would have if I had left on time. Don't be on 23 at 10 to the hour. But if you're there at quarter after 8, it's fairly smooth sailing, so long as you don't mind driving 60 mph and people riding your ass.

[Rizzo]

Originally Posted by subterranean

I can vouch for that last part. I commute to Ann Arbor from Lansing two days a week. It used to be a lot more, but thankfully that isn't the case anymore. Trying to get to my 8:30 class in time can definitely be a science. I honestly believe that leaving LATE by thirty minutes gets me there 5 minutes later than I normally would have if I had left on time. Don't be on 23 at 10 to the hour. But if you're there at quarter after 8, it's fairly smooth sailing, so long as you don't mind driving 60 mph and people riding your ass.

I skipped that 8:30 class this morning. See me there in the waaaay back? Nope. And my commute is like 15 minutes lol.

[Trainman]

Originally Posted by the urban politician

Great news.

Can any of you kindly post what the nature of the plan is? (sorry guys, too lazy to do the research)

Quote

Can any of you kindly post what the nature of the plan is? (sorry guys, too lazy to do the research)

End of Quote

The house bill that created DARTA was explicate and to the point. It meant the end of over $100 Million per in operating subsidies to SMART and DDOT from the state fuel tax. The new bill is the same and the preferred funding is one half percent for transit operation and one half percent for the county road commission. This is kept a secret to deceive the public into believing that we will get more from our limited transportation tax dollars, more federal funds and job growth.

The city of Livonia never paid for the large SMART buses ever. The money came from the Michigan Department of Transportation. The November 2005 opt. out was a hoax to disguise over $32 Million dollars per year in operating cuts that were once used for revenue sharing among communities.

The August 2010 SMART property tax renewal is a cover up, masquerade and a deception to get the public to believe that the state tax on fuel from the Michigan Department of Transportation is now defunct and must be replaced.

A vote of NO will only defeat the increase of this tax.

The savethefueltax.org website is designed to defeat this tax unless SMART officials respond appropriately to serve the best interests of all taxpayers. This will restore the dignity and respect of southeast Michigan’s taxpayers by allowing competition and the end of scare tactics designed to increase taxes by telling the public that the elderly, handicapped and the low income will lose their transportation options without your YES vote. This is illegal because of the Civil Rights Act of 1964 and the Americans with Disabilities Act. It is time to publicly disqualify SMART officials from denying the public a voice in how we use our tax dollars by mailing them the letter in the website to protect Act 51 which mandates state funds for all.

The NEW regional agreement rejects protecting existing federal and state funding by allowing a county take over of mast transit. This affords the taxpayers no accountable as it is essentially a bailout of over $70 Million in debts from the city of Detroit which is very explicit if you take the time to understand how mass transit is funded as specific to the state of Michigan. The only way a regional transit authority can be of any benefit is by reducing the per passenger costs of our existing public bus systems. The promoters of this agreement claim just that but they are wrong. Our county and local governments are not equipped to manage, build and maintain the transit system that is proposed by our leaders. This is best left to our industries without the county government.

The SMART property tax and NEW regional agreement are both regressive in the sense that it will be the low income and not state, federal or industry that will pay. There is just simply no reason why an average worker would want to support such an agreement or the SMART property tax unless they want to pay more taxes for no reason. Our existing laws protect our mass transit systems as we know them today. But, lawmakers in Lansing will take away all funding and move our state backwards unless directly challenged to make SMART and DDOT accountable by protecting all existing funds. That is not the case.


Remember Livonia in November 2006? That is the future of southeast Michigan unless the public demands the restoration of public bus service first in writing. Our leaders are not interested in supporting or improving our existing public bus systems. That is not the purpose of the new regional mass transit agreement.

Without Support, savethefueltax.org will expire and there just simply will not be any state money or a decent amount of fare box money or any industry support to speak of. It will be survival of the fittest and the rich will win every single time. Of course, unless our industries including Wal-Mart decide to pay a decent wage out of the kindness and generosity of their big hearts.

[hudkina]

Nooooooooooooo!!!!

[LMich]

Trainman,

I know you from Detroityes.com, and I will let you know straight off the bat that if you do here what you do there, we will call it (unlike DetroitYes.com) for what it is: trolling.

[Rizzo]

You gotta be kidding me. LMich, do something.

[ginsan2]

Originally Posted by LMich

Trainman,

I know you from Detroityes.com, and I will let you know straight off the bat that if you do here what you do there, we will call it (unlike DetroitYes.com) for what it is: trolling.

I honestly wonder who has time to do trolling in Michigan. There are so many better things to do.

Like go to party stores.

Once upon a time, I took party stores for granted. Any time I wanted to, I could stroll down a block and choose between any three party stores. They all sold my favorite vodkas and gins at such reasonable prices.

Oh I complained about the weather, and the lack of light rail options. I too hated the long winters. But really, what I should have been focused on was the completely disregarded unparalleled access to booze. Cheap booze.

This is the first summer I won't know a Stoli Summer Sale at a drug store

[LMich]

Looks like the private line from downtown to New Center is further along than most folks in the region knew:

Bids for Woodward rail line being reviewed

BY JOHN GALLAGHER • FREE PRESS BUSINESS WRITER • March 6, 2009

The proposed privately funded light-rail system on Woodward Avenue has a new name and an aggressive timetable as planners take the first practical steps to turn the idea into reality.

Formerly known as TRAIL for the Regional Area Initial Link, the system is now called M1-RAIL after the state designation for Woodward Avenue -- M1.

Paul Childs, a staffer at the nonprofit Downtown Detroit Partnership, now serves as project manager for M1-RAIL. He said Monday that bids for engineering design and pre-construction oversight were issued in late February and project staffers are now reviewing submissions from various firms.

Contracts could be awarded for those tasks as early as late March. Planners hope to break ground by fall and have the rail system running by late 2010 if all goes well.

"That's pretty ambitious," Childs admitted. "Everything has to align to make that happen." But he added, "We have a goal, and we think the goal is doable."

Ann Lang, president of the Downtown Detroit Partnership, said progress on the M1-RAIL system proved that good things can happen, even in a depressed economy.

"It's wonderful at this time to have something so big and so positive to rally around," she said.

Civic leader John Hertel led the Woodward Avenue rail effort until state lawmakers recently passed legislation allowing for the creation of the privately funded system. Hertel now has moved on to planning a region-wide transit system.

Businessman and civic leader Roger Penske, chair of the downtown partnership, serves as chair of M1-RAIL. Matthew Cullen, a former General Motors executive, serves as CEO of the rail venture. He is also president and chief operating officer of Rock Enterprises, a holding company for entrepreneurial firms controlled by Dan Gilbert, founder of Quicken Loans.

The $100 million needed to build the system is being raised by selling sponsorships of individual stations to prominent business leaders and institutions. Wayne State University has agreed to sponsor one station, while other sponsors include Penske, Peter Karmanos Jr. of Compuware Corp., Dan Gilbert of Quicken Loans, and the Ilitch family of pizza and sports fame.

Penske, Cullen, and project manager Childs are not being paid for their work with M1-RAIL.

The M1-RAIL system would feature streetcars running up both sides of Woodward Avenue in the second lane out from the curb between Jefferson Avenue and New Center. Childs said that the system probably would order either six or seven large passenger cars or 10 to 12 smaller ones.

Each of the 13 stops would involve two stations, one on either side of the street, to accommodate both north and south traffic.

The system still needs to obtain a City of Detroit operating license.

Contact JOHN GALLAGHER at 313-222-5173 or gallagher@freepress.com.

This is really quite impressive. It shows that the business community is very serious about this. I still can't believe it's happening, especially considering what's going on economically and socially in the region, at the moment.

[subterranean]

Leave it to Detroit leaders to Disney-fy something that should be taken very seriously. Not only is the line going to be substantially shorter than the public plan, now I'll have to sit on a bench that looks like a pepperoni pizza.

And what of a plan for the future, when the line needs to be extended? Who will handle that? Will you have to switch trains? Will a person downtown have to take the people mover to this private set and then switch again to get up past New Center.

I don't like this, not at all.